38 réponses à ce sujet

[mr_afk]

Att3r0 wrote...

mr_afk you quite clearly frogot about +% damage. At lv 12 wearing a set of +% damage you recive over 20% of damage increase this way.
EDIT: aye comparing vs spirtal eye... it SUCKS BALLS

No, i actually hadn't forgotten, and if you want you could factor in some imaginary +% elemental accessories instead of +all attributes then go for it. In terms of headwear, robes, gloves and boots, at level 12 the maximum +% damage could be close to 20% for fire damage but everybody knows how rubbish fire spells are 
Well fine, maybe it's only me so if you plan on specialising in fire I suppose the mage equipment might be the way to go. Even still, you do realise that you would be limiting your damage in terms of all other elements right?
And as mages have to switch for immunities quite often, using crit damage instead of +% elemental probably would be a much simpler (and more effective in terms of general use of spells)

Oh and I just chose the spiral eye because I had it in my inventory and decided to use it's requirements as a basis for mage robes of a similar level - e.g. how many attributes to waste on willpower. I don't know of many +crit damage robes so i think it's pretty safe to assume that they wouldn't change the calculations much, unless you want to talk about specific elements

Modifié par mr_afk, 18 avril 2011 - 04:33 .

[Jack-Nader]

no no no. Why use the DPS calculation. Use the damage you do every strike.

ie. My current mage has 71 magic = + 30 damage per strike
My current staff deals 41 fire damage per strike

My actual damage is a total of 71 damage per strike or 97 DPS.

Every 2 magic points will increase your staff damage by 1.


Full magic build (10 dex, 46 mag, 11 cun, 18 will) = 30 dps, 0 crit chance, 51% crit damage

46 magic = + 18 damage

Let's exclude all items here and just go with the attributes

A mage starts with 10 str, 10 dex, 13 magic, 11 cun, 12 will
case 1---------------
Full magic build (10 dex, 46 mag, 11 cun, 18 will) = 30 dps, 0 crit chance, 51% crit damage

*You have stilpulated here that we only have 39 attribute points to distribute.
46 magic = + 18 damage
0% critical chance

so....

18 * 100 = 1800 damage

case 2----------------

Magic/Cunning (18 dex, 37 mag, 18 cun) = 23 dps, 8 crit chance, 58% crit damage

37 magic = 13 damage

sooo..

(13 * 92) + (8 * 1.58* 13) = 1360.32 damage

[mr_afk]

Why would you exclude items? That's half the reason for the crit-mage build in the first place!

edit: true. just realised that to calculate crits properly i need to do it by hits.
merde, looks like i'll have to go open up my game again and chug down the maker's sighs...

Modifié par mr_afk, 18 avril 2011 - 04:58 .

[HTTP 404]

Fadook wrote...

You're exaggerating about the importance of strength for non-warriors. Yes, getting knocked back a lot is irritating. But it just means that you need to micro more, target archers, manipulate threat etc.

I agree about str and fortitude.  much better to avoid than get hit in the first place.

I basically used Shadow and Assassin Tree exclusively; one for evading attacks better than using str for fortitude to get hit in the first place and Assassin Tree with high cun to get my crits over 200 percent.  I also used Evade and Sublety (-25percent threat) to help with evading.  Yah my archer could get killed in a few hits but I micro managed the heck out of that character by having almost 2x more abilities to evade than compared to abilities for attacking.

[akselic]

as a sidenote to the topic of full magic vs magic/cunning:

The calculations don't take into account the fact that the hybrid mage can burst dangerous opponents down way faster than a steady dps build. Even without number crunching the value of removing assassins/commanders out of the fights faster is definately something to consider when talking about nightmare. Boss fights are a different matter but some of the toughest fights (at least for me) are the ones that include multiple waves of normal mobs with one or more assassin/commander/rage demon.

back ontopic: my only problem with nightmare is the fact that melee dps kills each other and I hate having to allways chose only Aveline/Fenris and 3 ranged to stop me from going nuts with micromanagement. Thus I've chosen to play hard and I just finished a really cool go with a full melee + anders setup.. shame that some of the fights were just too easy but it was a choise I made to avoid frustration.

[nickan1022]

Knockbacks and Knockdowns are generally avoidable with good threat management, appropriate talent investment, and correctly tuned tactics. If you're sinking points into strength to avoid melee-related interrupts on non-str characters, you're generally wasting points. Drop a few talents into threat management and crowd control skills and pump those str points into con and you'll be in a better place.

Also, as has been mentioned, some AoE is not also FF. All of the lightning skills in primal are party-friendly. Also, if you run with any mage with a creation tree, get the upgraded Glyph of Paralysis. It's great for stopping melee attackers and giving you some breathing room. The upgraded version holds targets longer and leaves the trap intact for longer. The spell also only targets enemies. It's win all the way around.

Moving from Hard to Nightmare requires a complete shift in thinking and a re-evaluation of many of your previously cherished strategies.

[Jack-Nader]

Only in that example. I already showed you in the previous post how the ring of puzzle boxes performs. It compares to an elemental or phsyical item that deals +5.72% damage. The ring of the ferryman adds +24% fire and +24% elecetricity which is more than 4 times the damage output of the ring of puzzle boxes.

There are plenty of items in this game with will boosts. In act III their is also the valence rune which is +7 will. All you have to do is equip those items. Add your armor and away you go.

My current mage is fire based. I decided to try it out because of all the complaining about mages and fire spells. She is currently level 19, packing + 113% fire gear and 71 magic. I have invested a total of 11 points in willpower. The highest will requirement for gear I saw in my previous run was 32 will

* 32 - 12 starting will - 7 from valance rune - 2 from valdasine = 11. There are also plenty of +1 and + 2 to all attribute items (which I don't have) which can further reduce this cost.

On another note, % gear which increases damage is as common as muck in this game. Vastly more common that critical damage and critical chance gear.

[mr_afk]

[quote]akselic wrote...

as a sidenote to the topic of full magic vs magic/cunning:

The calculations don't take into account the fact that the hybrid mage can burst dangerous opponents down way faster than a steady dps build. Even without number crunching the value of removing assassins/commanders out of the fights faster is definately something to consider when talking about nightmare. Boss fights are a different matter but some of the toughest fights (at least for me) are the ones that include multiple waves of normal mobs with one or more assassin/commander/rage demon. [/quote]

Unfortunately this isn't actually the case. From my (revised) calculations it seems that at level 12 anyway, the critical damage from a pure magic glass cannon will actually be greater. This means that a hex of torment (100% crit chance) would be more beneficial to the pure magic mage than the crit-mage. As for general damage the pure magic mage also wins in dps. Unless you're talking about spells in which case yes, a crit-mage has a higher chance of critting off a spell (which probably can be very useful for burst damage).
However, the difference isn't as great as Jack-Nader seems to imply, with the actual dps and critical damages been very similar and probably hardly noticable (besides the tendency for a crit mage to see large numbers more often). This should hopefully change as the benefits from rogue gear properties increases.
A crit-mage build should also have additional benefits in that it can avoid wasting any points into willpower, allowing those points to be reallocated to better uses (e.g. blood pool or spell damage).

------------------

So, i redid the math and came up with rather disappointing results. Yes, it is true. A pure magic glass cannon can outdo a crit-mage @ level 12 - even against hex of tormented enemies.
However, the interesting part is that an upgraded rally and might makes the crit-mage perform better (dps wise) even though the pure magic mage has a higher crit damage. This difference is due to the increased crit chance that a crit-mage has. This suggests that further increases to critical damage may make the crit-mage more than just competetive (which it already is) but superior in terms of non-specific staff and spell dps (not elemental-wise).


Updated Justification for crit-mage build mathematically: (cut paste from my guide)
@ level 12 and wearing no equipment
-Full magic build (10 dex, 46 mag, 11 cun, 18 will) = 22 dmg (30 dps), 0 crit chance, 51% crit damage
-Magic/Cunning (18 dex, 37 mag, 18 cun) = 17 dmg (23 dps), 8 crit chance, 58% crit damage
-A cunning build (18 dex, 25 mag, 30 cun) = 11dmg (15 dps), 8 crit chance, 70% crit damage
-(aaand I cbf calculating a dex build haha)

So in 100 hits:
-Full magic build = 22*100 = 2200
-Magic/Cunning build = 17*92 + 26.86*8 = 1778.88 
-Pure Cunning build = 11*92 + 17.38*8 = 1151.04

So it seems like a full magic build is better right? - But given that majority of the extra damage actually stems from equipment in a crit-mage build let's see what the stats look like with equipment on and heroic aura enabled:

-Full magic build (12 dex, 48 mag, 13 cun, 21 will) = 47dmg (64 dps), 12% crit chance, 53% crit damage
-Magic/Cunning build (21 dex, 40 mag, 21 cun) = 39 dmg (58 dps), 31% crit chance, 80% crit damage
-Cunning build (21 dex, 28 mag, 33 cun) = 37dmg (50 dps), 31% crit chance, 92% crit damage

Doing the same calculations as before:
-Full magic build = 47*88 + 71.91*12 = 4998.92
-Magic/Cunning build = 39*69 + 70.2*31 = 4867.2
-Cunning build = 37*69 + 71.04*31 = 4755.24

Unfortunately as you can see, the magic build still performs the best in terms of pure dps and has the highest potential spike damage against hex of tormented enemies (due to having the highest critical damage).
The cunning build demonstrates that having a decent base damage in addition to a decent attack score is essential in terms of both dps and scoring the largest criticals and that having a large %crit damage sadly isn't everything.

(note: I'm talking about glass cannons in all scenarios, with optimised crit-damage rogue armour compared against the spiral eye robe set - the accessories are pretty much all +all attributes so favour both classes equally). If you were to specialise in a certain element (e.g. fire), then mage armour might be more for you, but for more general spell casting/staff-switching this assessment should hold true.
-----------------------

Just for fun, if you factor in a upgraded rally + upgraded might (you can actually get an upgraded control in there too but you're not supposed to be able to so I won't include it):

-Full magic build (74% crit damage) = (47+4.7)*88 + 89.958*12 = 5629.096
-Magic/Cunning build (105% crit damage) = (39+3.9)*69 + 87.945*31 = 5686.395

Which goes to demonstrate the enchanced effect that further increases to crit damage will have on the crit-mage build (due to its higher crit chance). The dex build may actually perform quite well in this regard but I really can't be bothered figuring it out because dex is useless (in terms of spike damage) when you can guarantee crits via hexing.

However, this is merely looking at staff damage. Spells, given their cool downs etc. are effectively spikes of damage in a mages damage over time. The ability to crit off a spell means that higher critical chances (e.g. dex and rogue gear) as well as higher multipliers (e.g. cun and rogue gear) can enable your spells to do potentially much more damage - of course if they don't crit the full magic build will perform superiorly.

-----------------------
In summary: a high pure magic (glass cannon) will have the best dps at level 12 in addition to the best spike damage from upgraded hex of torments. However, paired with an upgraded rally and upgraded might the high magic rogue-armour build will perform better.This may (hopefully) change as the equipment available changes. 
[/quote]
 

Modifié par mr_afk, 18 avril 2011 - 06:09 .

[mr_afk]

Jack-Nader wrote...

Only in that example. I already showed you in the previous post how the ring of puzzle boxes performs. It compares to an elemental or phsyical item that deals +5.72% damage. The ring of the ferryman adds +24% fire and +24% elecetricity which is more than 4 times the damage output of the ring of puzzle boxes. 

I still don't understand why you would compare it against the ring of the puzzle ring of the black fox. That's mainly focused on increasing crit chance (which is admittedly useful) but not relevant to the potential for spike damage (which is what we are deliberating over).
Try some calcs with the etched ring of the twins +9% crit damage (4% crit chance). I'm considering getting it and using its immunity to knockback as a means to free up a point from unshakable (as much as I really really like that talent).

Modifié par mr_afk, 18 avril 2011 - 05:57 .

[Jack-Nader]

hold on I will do the calcs for that ring...

Random stats and no staff. 

100 magic
10 cunning
10 dex


No ring of twins := 45 * 100 = 4500 damage

Ring of twins := 45 * 96  + (45 * 4 * 1.59 ) = 4606.2

4606.2 / 4500 = +2.36% damage

Nah... It can stay in the shop

Modifié par Jack-Nader, 18 avril 2011 - 06:16 .

[mr_afk]

Jack-Nader wrote...

hold on I will do the calcs for that ring...

Random stats and no staff. 

100 magic
10 cunning
10 dex


No ring of twins := 45 * 100 = 4500 damage

Ring of twins := 45 * 96  + (45 * 4 * 1.59 ) = 4606.2

4606.2 / 4500 = +2.36% damage

Nah... It can stay in the shop

haha thanks but I was more referring to it fitting in my build.

-Full magic build = 47*84 + 76.14*16 = 5166.24 (4998.92 without ring)
-Magic/Cunning build = 39*65 + 73.71*35 = 5114.85 (4867.2 without ring)

On average that's a 2.4765 dmg a hit  (~3.174dps) difference, which sorta does suck for something that costs so much. But that is considering my crappy level 12 stats. Once i've..i dunno, let feynriel get turned ugly I should have enough stats to create a proper critical hit mage, and then i'll consider how the ring fits into my build.

Because the concept does sort of work. Sacrificing some magic (base damage) for a much higher crit damage via rogue equipment... I think the only reason why my calculations found the results they did is because my level was too low (and so pumping magic hadn't started to meet diminishing returns - each point into magic causing a large base damage increase proportionately speaking)

Anyway, I think we should stop spamming this thread with this rather irrelevant number crunching.
Once my upcoming exam (which I probably should have been studying for) is over I'll go power level my mage and then we'll compare numbers. Then the true challenge of designing the best glass cannon will begin! 

Modifié par mr_afk, 18 avril 2011 - 06:39 .

[Jack-Nader]

I'd go the critical mage build if there were random items that dropped with minimum +8% critical chance. All the items that are even in that ball park are ridiculously overpriced. Bit lame when a crappy +6% damage amulet which I picked from a corpse pulls better damage than an item worth 88 gold.

[Att3r0]

exactly as Jack-Nader said.. Bascily Robes of unblemished cleanliness are must - thats 140 g, followed by ring of ferryman - 109 g?. And you are pretty much broke.

If you could afford then yea - ring of black fox 88g(9% crit) + amulet from act 3 (8% crit) 110g and stealth boots (100g) ,You would only need to rise dex /cunning to ~14 or less if yoiu would swap some +stat amulet / helm. Your ending stat would be 27-29 dex and cunning .
So crit chance would be with heroic aura - 47% ? and bonuss crit damage - +90% ? or so.pretty good considering you almost dont need to add stats to dex and cunning.
But it requires /addgold command ><.

[mr_afk]

Att3r0 wrote...

exactly as Jack-Nader said.. Bascily Robes of unblemished cleanliness are must - thats 140 g, followed by ring of ferryman - 109 g?. And you are pretty much broke.

If you could afford then yea - ring of black fox 88g(9% crit) + amulet from act 3 (8% crit) 110g and stealth boots (100g) ,You would only need to rise dex /cunning to ~14 or less if yoiu would swap some +stat amulet / helm. Your ending stat would be 27-29 dex and cunning .
So crit chance would be with heroic aura - 47% ? and bonuss crit damage - +90% ? or so.pretty good considering you almost dont need to add stats to dex and cunning.
But it requires /addgold command ><.

Unfortunately stealth boots are locked to the rogue class. Which sort of sucks as they would definately add a huge benefit to using the crit-build. And what i'm thinking regarding attribute requirements is similar to your line of thought but more on the issue of willpower - with adequate prebuffing you should be able to equip the robes of unblemished cleanliness with only ~20 willpower.
This means that a mixed attire (mage clothing and rogue armour) besides making you look and feel stupid will actually have a decent viability, the best of both worlds. The main issue i'm seeing now is whether there is any non-restricted generic rogue gear that is worth picking up late-game.
During a rogue playthrough most of the +crit chance and damage armour comes from the item sets (e.g. champion set) which a mage does not have access to. I'll figure something out when the time comes (hopefully will have stackloads of money cos i'm been the biggest hoarder/miser on this playthrough.)

Anyway, good to know my build idea doesn't sound completely stupid. haha I guess i'll find out how well it works soon enough anyway.