352 réponses à ce sujet

[Foolsfolly]

I don't know. Reapers can build a space station right next to a black hole. They may have kinetic barriers strong enough to withstand a supernova.

Sovereign's kinetic barriers only fell because Shepard caused Sovereign to pause after killing the possessed Saren. In that brief stunned moment the Alliance fleet and Joker caused enough damage for it to blow.

Otherwise, it was taking the whole Alliance and Citadel fleet's fire without any trouble. It even rammed into cruisers without the barriers falling.

Frankly, we still don't know their full capabilities.

[Foolsfolly]

Meredith was strict, but not unreasonable until Act III. She may have been willing to work with a First Enchanter who had proved himself competent and respected her position. We never see anything from Orsino except a desire to protect the mages, regardless of whether they deserve his protection or not.

This is true. Add to the fact that Orsino is also protecting himself. He's a blood mage with necromancer ties. And the beginning of the finale, before Anders walks up, the argument Meredith and Orsino are having is that Meredith wants her Templars to investigate for signs of blood mages in the Circle.

Orsino's air tight argument is "Where do you not see blood mages." True. She is definitely paranoid but also true is the fact that if the Templars go in and do their job they'll likely find evidence that Orsino is a blood mage or at least was in league with Quentin. Either way, Orsino's a dead man if the Templars do their job.

Then Anders shows up and everything goes FUBAR.

Meredith's paranoid, she was strict but then the Idol made her go looney tunes. Orsino's protecting himself as much as anyone else since he has a lot to loose if the Templars search the Circle. And Anders is guilty for blowing up however many innocents.

It's one thing on top of another and not a single sane person around...except for Hawke who does nothing.

[Deztyn]

Oh, I don't doubt that he was protecting his own skin at that point.

And I always found it a bit funny that Super Evil Commander Merry Death, Enemy of All That is Just and Good, Persecutor of Mages Everywhere™ hasn't been searching the tower all along. So much for the 'Mages have no rights at all and get no privacy ever' complaint, huh?

And Hawke ignores poor Alain being raped. Hawke is a jerk. That poor boy confides in him and does Hawke take it to the proper authorities or do anything to protect him? No. Hawke is the most evil person in the game.

Modifié par Deztyn, 18 avril 2011 - 12:09 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Deztyn wrote...
Meredith was strict, but not unreasonable until Act III. She may have been willing to work with a First Enchanter who had proved himself competent and respected her position. We never see anything from Orsino except a desire to protect the mages, regardless of whether they deserve his protection or not. Mage Hawke pretty much proves that Meredith is capable of working with a mage with common goals, and that's with the idols influence.

By "respected her position", you mean bend to her and allow her to do whatever she wants? There is a fine line between strict, and excessive. She was excessive even before Act 3, that's when she became insane. An important reason is her assumption of political power.

Both are at fault here, and I am not denying that. But her attitude pretty much indicates that she never even tried to collaborate with Orsino (whereas he seemed more amendable to negotiations). That she despises him. And you forget that Meredith is essentially blackmailing a mage Hawke into helping her.

[Deztyn]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Deztyn wrote...
Meredith was strict, but not unreasonable until Act III. She may have been willing to work with a First Enchanter who had proved himself competent and respected her position. We never see anything from Orsino except a desire to protect the mages, regardless of whether they deserve his protection or not. Mage Hawke pretty much proves that Meredith is capable of working with a mage with common goals, and that's with the idols influence.

By "respected her position", you mean bend to her and allow her to do whatever she wants? There is a fine line between strict, and excessive. She was excessive even before Act 3, that's when she became insane. An important reason is her assumption of political power.

No. I mean respecting her duty. Which should also be in part his duty. We don't see much of Orsino and Meredith before Act III, but we do know that he's been shirking his duty by his treatment of Quintin. And if he's willing to shield a serial killer who has prayed on innocent mages under his care, I see no reason to assume that he's actively trying to keep the less extreme and dangerous mages under control.

Both are at fault here, and I am not denying that. But her attitude pretty much indicates that she never even tried to collaborate with Orsino (whereas he seemed more amendable to negotiations). That she despises him.

I'd argue that she despises him because he's a weak man who actively hampers her ability to carry out her duties, while criticizing her at every turn. And yes, Meredith holds plenty of responsibility here, I'm just not going to blame her and only her for their bad relationship.

And you forget that Meredith is essentially blackmailing a mage Hawke into helping her.

Only if a Mage Hawke needs to be blackmailed. Let's not forget that Mage Hawke has also been free to run around for three years because Meredith respects her. If that's how you've been playing it.

[EmperorSahlertz]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Deztyn wrote...
Meredith was strict, but not unreasonable until Act III. She may have been willing to work with a First Enchanter who had proved himself competent and respected her position. We never see anything from Orsino except a desire to protect the mages, regardless of whether they deserve his protection or not. Mage Hawke pretty much proves that Meredith is capable of working with a mage with common goals, and that's with the idols influence.

By "respected her position", you mean bend to her and allow her to do whatever she wants? There is a fine line between strict, and excessive. She was excessive even before Act 3, that's when she became insane. An important reason is her assumption of political power.

Both are at fault here, and I am not denying that. But her attitude pretty much indicates that she never even tried to collaborate with Orsino (whereas he seemed more amendable to negotiations). That she despises him. And you forget that Meredith is essentially blackmailing a mage Hawke into helping her.

I didn't get the impression that Meredith was unwilling to cooperate with Orsino, quite the contrary actually. Orsino refused to cooperate with Meredith, and thus she was reduced to using brute force to try and weed out amongst the mages. I find Orsino as the root to all the troubles of Kirkwall, not Meredith.

[Rifneno]

Deztyn wrote...

Only if a Mage Hawke needs to be blackmailed. Let's not forget that Mage Hawke has also been free to run around for three years because Meredith respects her. If that's how you've been playing it.

Or a non-mage Hawke.  If Bethany is in the Circle, Meredith threatens Bethany instead.  Charming, no?

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

I didn't get the impression that Meredith was unwilling to cooperate with Orsino, quite the contrary actually. Orsino refused to cooperate with Meredith, and thus she was reduced to using brute force to try and weed out amongst the mages. I find Orsino as the root to all the troubles of Kirkwall, not Meredith.

Okay, now you're just screwing with us.  They beat you over the head with the fact that the idol made Meredith insane, I refuse to believe anyone thinks she's just doing her job.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Deztyn wrote...
No. I mean respecting her duty. Which should also be in part his duty. We don't see much of Orsino and Meredith before Act III, but we do know that he's been shirking his duty by his treatment of Quintin. And if he's willing to shield a serial killer who has prayed on innocent mages under his care, I see no reason to assume that he's actively trying to keep the less extreme and dangerous mages under control.

And the fact that Orsino is trying to develop blood magic, is to counter act Meredith's repression.
Her duty is to collaborate with the first enchanter, not take over the city. She is just as guilty of shirking from her duty and overstepping her bounds and even the populace knows this before Act 3.

It's only under her command that the Templars are hated by the people for the first time. That reeks of incompetence.

And yes, Meredith holds plenty of responsibility here, I'm just not going to blame her and only her for their bad relationship.

And I am not doing that.
However if we take the entire situation under consideration, Meredith holds the most responsability, in large part because she is extending her responsability to the protection of the city, which is not her jurisdiction nor her entitlment.

Only if a Mage Hawke needs to be blackmailed. Let's not forget that Mage Hawke has also been free to run around for three years because Meredith respects her. If that's how you've been playing it.

Because that mage is a useful tool. You seriously think that Meredith would allow an apostate to be out once her use of him / her has ended? And blackmail is always implied, you have the KC saying that she knows you're a mage and that she ignored that for now. That alone is implied blackmail.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 18 avril 2011 - 12:35 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
I didn't get the impression that Meredith was unwilling to cooperate with Orsino, quite the contrary actually. Orsino refused to cooperate with Meredith, and thus she was reduced to using brute force to try and weed out amongst the mages. I find Orsino as the root to all the troubles of Kirkwall, not Meredith.

Let's assume that is the case (though I see no indication of it. Meredith's attitude is quite clearly not the negotiating type), she can ask for Orsino's replacement, instead of acting like an idiot and make the whole of Kirkwall despise her.

[Zkyire]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Where my tolerance ends is when an evil choice is excused and even justified not in terms of what the people of the world think, but of what we the 21st century players should think.  Failing to recognize an evil choice as an evil one by the writers of the game (not the characters in it) sets off all kinds of alarm bells.....

My alarm bells are more set off by the people who want to romance their sister...

1) It's not our sister. She's Hawke's sister. So it's only half incest, really.

2) Romance? More like blank the blank out of her.

[EmperorSahlertz]

I don't think she can replace a First Enchanter that easily. A First Enchanter is elected by the council of senior Enchanters, without any say from the Knight-Commander. With the process of election in mind. It stands to reason that it is only a vote of misconfidence from said council which can remove a First Enchanter. Orsino probably had the confidence (of most) of the council, which made it difficult for Meredith.

[Zkyire]

Foolsfolly wrote...

I don't know. Reapers can build a space station right next to a black hole. They may have kinetic barriers strong enough to withstand a supernova.

Sovereign's kinetic barriers only fell because Shepard caused Sovereign to pause after killing the possessed Saren. In that brief stunned moment the Alliance fleet and Joker caused enough damage for it to blow.

Otherwise, it was taking the whole Alliance and Citadel fleet's fire without any trouble. It even rammed into cruisers without the barriers falling.

Frankly, we still don't know their full capabilities.

Sovereign was barely struck at all during the fight before the Alliance showed up.

It went straight into the Citadel, most of the Turian ships were fighting the Geth.

[EmperorSahlertz]

IEatWhatIPoo wrote...

Foolsfolly wrote...

I don't know. Reapers can build a space station right next to a black hole. They may have kinetic barriers strong enough to withstand a supernova.

Sovereign's kinetic barriers only fell because Shepard caused Sovereign to pause after killing the possessed Saren. In that brief stunned moment the Alliance fleet and Joker caused enough damage for it to blow.

Otherwise, it was taking the whole Alliance and Citadel fleet's fire without any trouble. It even rammed into cruisers without the barriers falling.

Frankly, we still don't know their full capabilities.

Sovereign was barely struck at all during the fight before the Alliance showed up.

It went straight into the Citadel, most of the Turian ships were fighting the Geth.

It still rammed straight through multiple kinetic barriers designed to resist a 10 kiloton nuclear bomb equivelant, in kinetic force. So it can certainly take a punishment and dish it out in turn.

[KnightofPhoenix]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

I don't think she can replace a First Enchanter that easily. A First Enchanter is elected by the council of senior Enchanters, without any say from the Knight-Commander. With the process of election in mind. It stands to reason that it is only a vote of misconfidence from said council which can remove a First Enchanter. Orsino probably had the confidence (of most) of the council, which made it difficult for Meredith.

Then she should learn to cooperate with the Circle's elected representative and devote her attention to that. Instead of taking over the city.  And I am not sure that Meredith can't request the removal of an enchanter if he proves completely uncooperative.

Better yet, the Chantry should have removed her a long time ago and have a much more diplomatic and prudent KC. One who wouldn't make commoners spit on Templars.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 18 avril 2011 - 12:48 .

[TJPags]

Since I have to go watch Game of Thrones in a moment, I can't stay to discuss this, but let me throw this out there:

Some people in recent posts have been blaming Meredith for failing to work with Orsino regarding security of the Gallows and handling of the mages.

Let's see: Meredith wants to root out blood mages. Orsino, who goes all Harvester at the end, and who clearly knows how to use blood magic, is helping a blood mage/necromancer/mass murderer with his "research".

Perhaps it was Orsino not being particulaly helpful with Meredith . . . .

Toss that around for a little while

[Benchmark]

When did we all start finding a Mass Effect discussion to be more interesting than our DA2 one... I think that is a good indication that this topic = horse that's not breathing anymore.

When everyone is crazy... Just no one cares anymore and we all want twinkies at snack time.

[EmperorSahlertz]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

I don't think she can replace a First Enchanter that easily. A First Enchanter is elected by the council of senior Enchanters, without any say from the Knight-Commander. With the process of election in mind. It stands to reason that it is only a vote of misconfidence from said council which can remove a First Enchanter. Orsino probably had the confidence (of most) of the council, which made it difficult for Meredith.

Then she should learn to cooperate with the Circle's elected representative and devote her attention to that. Instead of taking over the city.  And I am not sure that Meredith can't request the removal of an enchanter if he proves completely uncooperative.

Better yet, the Chantry should have removed her a long time ago and have a much more diplomatic and prudent KC. One who wouldn't make commoners spit on Templars.

Even if she could ask for his removal, it would possibly still depend on the council's approval. If Orsino is completely unwilling to cooperate with Meredith, even if she tries, what would you have her do then? She didn't take over the city till the end of act 2, to enforce a martial law. Kirkwall was extremely destabalized after the Qunari attack, and it was kept so because of mage insurrection, which caused Meredith to be unwilling to lift the martial law. If Orsino had allowed for the investigation, it could have done much to alleviate Meredith's suspicions, which (after the investigations) could have let Meredith loosen the grip on the Circle.

[KnightofPhoenix]

TJPags wrote...
Some people in recent posts have been blaming Meredith for failing to work with Orsino regarding security of the Gallows and handling of the mages.

Let's see: Meredith wants to root out blood mages. Orsino, who goes all Harvester at the end, and who clearly knows how to use blood magic, is helping a blood mage/necromancer/mass murderer with his "research".

Maybe because Meredith was not cooperative to begin with? He said that's why he did this in the first place. An idiotic move on his part to be sure. But when the common people happen to spit on Templar faces because of repression, which is unprecendented, it's probably because Meredith took it too far.  

Both are incompetent imbeciles, and I am far from defending Orsino. Or anyone, I think everyone is incompetent, including Hawke. But is clear to me that Meredith lacks subtelly, patience, prudence and intelligence and yet is still devoting ressources to trying to take over the city.

[Rifneno]

Benchmark wrote...

When did we all start finding a Mass Effect discussion to be more interesting than our DA2 one... I think that is a good indication that this topic = horse that's not breathing anymore.

When everyone is crazy... Just no one cares anymore and we all want twinkies at snack time.

Mass Effect is always interesting.  Also, twinkies suck.  What kind of sorry confection contains no chocolate?

Related note: Kinetic barriers wouldn't help against the sheer heat of a supernova.  The pressure, yes, the heat, no.

[KnightofPhoenix]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
Even if she could ask for his removal, it would possibly still depend on the council's approval. If Orsino is completely unwilling to cooperate with Meredith, even if she tries, what would you have her do then? She didn't take over the city till the end of act 2, to enforce a martial law. Kirkwall was extremely destabalized after the Qunari attack, and it was kept so because of mage insurrection, which caused Meredith to be unwilling to lift the martial law. If Orsino had allowed for the investigation, it could have done much to alleviate Meredith's suspicions, which (after the investigations) could have let Meredith loosen the grip on the Circle.

She already took over the city before act 1. Dumar was a puppet everyone knew it, Meredith was the de factor ruler of Kirkwall. She became unsubtle about it (and more diiotic than usual) after Act 2.

If she didn't make the common people, nobles and guards hate her, and if she allowed Kirkwall to have a proper government, her "services" would not have been required. It's not her job in the first place. Her job is to secure the gallows, and even that she fails at. And "mage inssurection" happened in large part because of her continued brash, clumsy and more excessive repression.

Meredith was requesting a Rite of Annulment even before she demanded an investigation.
I agree that Orsino should have allowed her to investigate (and he does at the very end, too late). But judging from what I've seen of Meredith, she probably ordered it in the most offensive and insulting way possible.

As for Orsino being irreplaceable. Since she is failing at her hjob, then she should resign and request Seeker intervention. But that, I blame on Chantry incompetence fror the most part. Meredith only became KC because of her actions against the previous Viscount. A good warrior maybe. That's not enough to qualify her to be KC.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 18 avril 2011 - 01:05 .

[Deztyn]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Deztyn wrote...
No. I mean respecting her duty. Which should also be in part his duty. We don't see much of Orsino and Meredith before Act III, but we do know that he's been shirking his duty by his treatment of Quintin. And if he's willing to shield a serial killer who has prayed on innocent mages under his care, I see no reason to assume that he's actively trying to keep the less extreme and dangerous mages under control.

And the fact that Orsinoi is trying to develop blood magic, is to counter act Meredith's repression.

I think you're giving Orsino too much credit here. His interest in necromancy isn't necessarily a result of feeling oppressed, even if his use of that research is.

Her duty is to collaborate with the first enchanter, not take over the city. She is just as guilty of shirking from her duty and overstepping her bounds and even the populace knows this before Act 3.

It's only under her command that the Templars are hated by the people for the first time. That reeks of incompetence.

Merry's been a bad girl. No doubt. However, I'm talking about how the situation within the circle got so far out of hand as to have the divine considering an Exalted March. Her mucking up of city politics isn't that important to the discussion I think.

And how hated the templars are depends in part on where Hawke throws her support. If Hawke supports the templars many are happy to go along with her.

Only if a Mage Hawke needs to be blackmailed. Let's not forget that Mage Hawke has also been free to run around for three years because Meredith respects her. If that's how you've been playing it.

Because that mage is a useful tool. You seriously think that Meredith would allow an apostate to be out once her use of him / her has ended? And blackmail is always implied, you have the KC saying that she knows you're a mage and that she ignored that for now. That alone is implied blackmail.

How is Meredith using Hawke during the gap between Acts? And aside from the ending of Act II, Meredith only threatens a mage Hawke if Mage Hawke isn't working with her. Which is my point, even with the idol she's willing and able to work fairly amicably with a mage who is competent, respectful and sincere in the desire to route out blood mages and maleficar. Orsino isn't. And as far as we can tell never was.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Didn't the dlc say it was only with the force of a supernova?

[KnightofPhoenix]

Deztyn wrote...
I think you're giving Orsino too much credit here. His interest in necromancy isn't necessarily a result of feeling oppressed, even if his use of that research is.

Necromancy technically isn't illegal, it's in the spirit school.
I think it is in large part, because of Meredith's oppression. And practically everyone in Kirkwall disliked Meredith for it.

Merry's been a bad girl. No doubt. However, I'm talking about how the situation within the circle got so far out of hand as to have the divine considering an Exalted March. Her mucking up of city politics isn't that important to the discussion I think.

It is, because a- it's a waste of ressources
b- it's alienating popular support, which is essential in Templars doing their duty well. The fatc that common people are helping mages, which I believe is due to her encroachement and her excessive repression, is a very big reason as to why order can't be restored.
c- it's a psychological strain. Meredith is already bordering on instability as it is, she doens't need further pressure.

And how hated the templars are depends in part on where Hawke throws her support. If Hawke supports the templars many are happy to go along with her.

The commoners still dislike her and the guards also do. Only the nobility is apparently swayed. and only because the Champion got off of her / his ass and finally did something.

How is Meredith using Hawke during the gap between Acts? And aside from the ending of Act II, Meredith only threatens a mage Hawke if Mage Hawke isn't working with her. Which is my point, even with the idol she's willing and able to work fairly amicably with a mage who is competent, respectful and sincere in the desire to route out blood mages and maleficar. Orsino isn't. And as far as we can tell never was.

She doesn't need to use him / her 24/7 to think he / she is a useful tool.
And blackmail does not have to be abrupt. The mere fact that a KC comes up to a mages and tells him / her that she knows everything, is blackmail in and of itself, especially considering her reputation. Maybe if the mage displays as much zeal or sincerity as her, she could learn to respect him /her and I agree Orsino was not fully cooperative.

[Benchmark]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Deztyn wrote...
I think you're giving Orsino too much credit here. His interest in necromancy isn't necessarily a result of feeling oppressed, even if his use of that research is.

Necromancy technically isn't illegal, it's in the spirit school.
I think it is in large part, because of Meredith's oppression. And practically everyone in Kirkwall disliked Meredith for it.

Rasing things from the dead has always seemed to be forbidden magic. Hasn't it? Maybe I missed a memo.

An interesting point to why Orsino has been dragging his feet about Merideth searching the tower. I just took the Templar side and raided his room. Inside his personal locked chest were some neat blood magic bonus items.

Bad bad Orsino. Do as you say but not as you do eh?

Oh and how about Cullen stealing the limelight and standing up to Meri. Telling her what an honorable Templar should be made of. That bastid keeps taking all the best lines.

[Rifneno]

Benchmark wrote...

Rasing things from the dead has always seemed to be forbidden magic. Hasn't it? Maybe I missed a memo.

No, I don't think so.  It's certainly... distasteful, but I don't believe it's forbidden.  At least as long as you're not summoning demons to control those corpses via possession.  If you're just controlling them yourself with magic it's great psychological warfare but presents no more danger than the usual attack magic.  No demons or veil thinning or anything I mean.