352 réponses à ce sujet

[EmperorSahlertz]

I think the retconned it. Necromancy is now a form of Blood Magic, and the school of spirits focus on other nasty stuff. Like a death cloud.

[Maria Caliban]

Raising things from the dead isn't forbidden. It's a form of demon summoning, but I don't believe that's explicitly forbidden either.

It's frowned upon, both because it involves demons and because it's messing with the bodies of the dead, which is viewed as disrespectful.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

I think the retconned it. Necromancy is now a form of Blood Magic, and the school of spirits focus on other nasty stuff. Like a death cloud.

Oh? I see.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 18 avril 2011 - 01:28 .

[Herr Uhl]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Raising things from the dead isn't forbidden. It's a form of demon summoning, but I don't believe that's explicitly forbidden either.

It's frowned upon, both because it involves demons and because it's messing with the bodies of the dead, which is viewed as disrespectful.

Well, the one in DAO was supposedly controlled by you like a puppet IIRC. Binding demons to anything is most likely seen as a capital offense.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Raising things from the dead isn't forbidden. It's a form of demon summoning, but I don't believe that's explicitly forbidden either.

It's frowned upon, both because it involves demons and because it's messing with the bodies of the dead, which is viewed as disrespectful.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

I think the retconned it. Necromancy is now a form of Blood Magic, and the school of spirits focus on other nasty stuff. Like a death cloud.

Oh? I see.

It is entirely speculation on my part. I am just connecting the dots between being able to manipulate a skeleton in the previous game, and the lack of the skill in the new game, yet the mention of necromancy appearing.

Then again, the spell from the school of spirit wasn't really necromancy. You did not raise the dead. You merely manipulated the skeleton of a dead. No binding of spirits or anything, just an advanced form of telekinesis really. Necromancy usually involves raising of the dead, literally. Raise the dead and bind their spirit to your own will, and all that sort of stuff.

[Torax]

Lets keep in mind that this is Thedas. Depending on where you are standing there can be argued capital offenses. Blood Magic is just one of the more obvious ones. Raising Demons is another. Putting spirits into things is probably another one. Hell the Qunari kill some of their own kind just because they do not agree with the rules of the Qun. So lets not be picky about all the "forbidden" things that mages should or shouldn't do. Lets assume that many in the World of Thedas would rather kill mages at birth. Just they probably trump up a bunch of rules for the mages to live by so they feel more civilized about their deep hatred of them.

[TJPags]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

TJPags wrote...
Some people in recent posts have been blaming Meredith for failing to work with Orsino regarding security of the Gallows and handling of the mages.

Let's see: Meredith wants to root out blood mages. Orsino, who goes all Harvester at the end, and who clearly knows how to use blood magic, is helping a blood mage/necromancer/mass murderer with his "research".

Maybe because Meredith was not cooperative to begin with? He said that's why he did this in the first place. An idiotic move on his part to be sure. But when the common people happen to spit on Templar faces because of repression, which is unprecendented, it's probably because Meredith took it too far.  

Both are incompetent imbeciles, and I am far from defending Orsino. Or anyone, I think everyone is incompetent, including Hawke. But is clear to me that Meredith lacks subtelly, patience, prudence and intelligence and yet is still devoting ressources to trying to take over the city.

See, I just can't accept that view.

We have Orsino, helping a blood mage with his murders for necromancy.

We have Meredith, convinced that there are problems with the mages in the Gallows.

Say what you will about Meredith, but the fact is, she's right.  There is something rotten in the Gallows.  She may be heavy handed about it, but she's correct in her suspicions.

And Orsino - given the revelations about him, can we say he has nothing to hide?  Given the number of blood mages we see, the Mage Underground, can we say he is ignorant of those things?  When he's corresponding with an apostate, a mass murdering apostate at that, who is doing necromantic research?

Meredith may be extremely undiplomatic, and lacking in tact (she reminds me  of Loghain in that respect, a little) but I'm not willing to paint Orsino as the innocent here.  He may well have been frustrating her attempts to impose order or root out the cancer in the Gallows, and he apparently has reason to do so.

[Foolsfolly]

By "respected her position", you mean bend to her and allow her to do whatever she wants? There is a fine line between strict, and excessive. She was excessive even before Act 3, that's when she became insane. An important reason is her assumption of political power.

Dammit, KOP. You know I hate disagreeing with you!

She was insane in Act 2. Cullen, some other templar, and at least one mage say she's staying in her office and hears voices. She got the Idol after Act 1 and before Act 2.....or at least early on in Act 2 while Bartrand is back in Kirkwall but before Varric's heard about it.

But she hadn't turned the Idol into a sword yet since she would totally have used it against the Qunari if she did.

Benchmark wrote...

When did we all start finding a Mass Effect discussion to be more interesting than our DA2 one... I think that is a good indication that this topic = horse that's not breathing anymore.

When everyone is crazy... Just no one cares anymore and we all want twinkies at snack time.

I really wish the main characters of Act 3 were sane. Look at Act 2, the Viscount, Petrice, and Arishok are all sane people. Petrice is just a zealot but not insane or driven crazy by a spirit or a chunk of rock.

Madness is a fine thing, it adds tension like no other when done properly. But when so many main characters in a story are crazy it just devolves into silly madness. It's not tense or interesting.

Benchmark wrote...

Rasing things from the dead has always seemed to be forbidden magic. Hasn't it? Maybe I missed a memo.

I don't think so...but I'm sure there's plenty of people who'd want it to be. It's really perverse, you know?

[KnightofPhoenix]

TJPags wrote...
Meredith may be extremely undiplomatic, and lacking in tact (she reminds me  of Loghain in that respect, a little) but I'm not willing to paint Orsino as the innocent here.  He may well have been frustrating her attempts to impose order or root out the cancer in the Gallows, and he apparently has reason to do so.

And no where did I claim he was innocent. Yea, Meredith was proven right. There's something called a self-fullfilling prophecy. Not sure how pertinente it would be to be right, when you're the one who caused it to be right. I think in large part, it was self-fullfilling prophecy here. 

And none of what you listed would have worked as well if Kirkwall's populace didn't despise her because of her encroachement and excess. If she kept focusing on her real job, instead of trying to play at politics when it isn't needed, much could have been avoided.

But I put the blame on the Chantry for thinking she is qualified to be a KC in the first place.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 18 avril 2011 - 02:51 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Foolsfolly wrote...
Dammit, KOP. You know I hate disagreeing with you!

She was insane in Act 2. Cullen, some other templar, and at least one mage say she's staying in her office and hears voices. She got the Idol after Act 1 and before Act 2.....or at least early on in Act 2 while Bartrand is back in Kirkwall but before Varric's heard about it.

But she hadn't turned the Idol into a sword yet since she would totally have used it against the Qunari if she did.

I forgot what her sword was like in Act 2. In any case, she was getting more repressive than usual before Act 3. But even before Act 1, she was no ordinary KC.

And I have to clarify that I am not absolving Orsino of anything. He is guilty and he is a moron. But since Meredith was the one holding more power, and did more mistakes, I hold her as the primary root cause (next to the Chantry). But far from being the only one.

[Camenae]

Just saw Game of Thrones. It was EPIC!!! (I love it even more because I have twin cats named Jaime and Cersei)

Back on topic, or actually on the current tangent of the topic: Maybe Meredith was qualified to be KC in the beginning, but then later weren't. Although, her personal history with mages is such that one could argue that it was a conflict of interest for her to be a Templar, given that part of a Templar's job description is to PROTECT the mages.

[Foolsfolly]

I forgot what her sword was like in Act 2. In any case, she was getting more repressive than usual before Act 3. But even before Act 1, she was no ordinary KC.

Agreed. She has a bit of a crusade against mages because of what happened to her sister. So she was rough on them even before the Idol showed up.

And I have to clarify that I am not absolving Orsino of anything. He is guilty and he is a moron. But since Meredith was the one holding more power, and did more mistakes, I hold her as the primary root cause (next to the Chantry). But far from being the only one.

The Chantry should have had some sort of Oversight Committee or something (isn't that what the Seekers are anyway?). Knight-Captain Cullen is not a softie on Mages and even he at the opening of Act 3 openly states that Meredith's crazy and that he can't decide if following her orders are following the Templars or just Meredith's desires.

Why couldn't he voice those concerns to someone? Why isn't there something to make sure that the Knight-Commander isn't insane and doing wrong things? It's seven years of people complaining about the amount of tranquiled mages, rape, abuse, and then four years of her own Templars talking about Meredith being crazy.

No one acts. No one does anything.

So many characters have the idiot ball stapled to their foreheads in this game.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Camenae wrote...
Back on topic, or actually on the current tangent of the topic: Maybe Meredith was qualified to be KC in the beginning, but then later weren't. Although, her personal history with mages is such that one could argue that it was a conflict of interest for her to be a Templar, given that part of a Templar's job description is to PROTECT the mages.

She became KC after mounting a coup d'etat against the previous Viscount. That might make her a capable warrior, or tactician. Not necessarily a good KC.

Maybe she was competent before, but by Act 2-3, she wasn't and the Chantry should have done something and not only ponder on an exalted march (their first reaction to every problem it seems).

[KnightofPhoenix]

Foolsfolly wrote...
The Chantry should have had some sort of Oversight Committee or something (isn't that what the Seekers are anyway?). Knight-Captain Cullen is not a softie on Mages and even he at the opening of Act 3 openly states that Meredith's crazy and that he can't decide if following her orders are following the Templars or just Meredith's desires.

Why couldn't he voice those concerns to someone? Why isn't there something to make sure that the Knight-Commander isn't insane and doing wrong things? It's seven years of people complaining about the amount of tranquiled mages, rape, abuse, and then four years of her own Templars talking about Meredith being crazy.

No one acts. No one does anything.

So many characters have the idiot ball stapled to their foreheads in this game.

Pretty much.

For the first time, common people are spitting on the faces of Templars and actively assisting mages. And rather than have the Chantry investigate and send Seekers, they consider an exalted march as a first reaction. Sigh.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 18 avril 2011 - 03:00 .

[Deztyn]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Necromancy technically isn't illegal, it's in the spirit school.

No? Maybe not, but, I'm pretty sure the method Quintin used to conduct his research was illegal. 

Merry's been a bad girl. No doubt. However, I'm talking about how the situation within the circle got so far out of hand as to have the divine considering an Exalted March. Her mucking up of city politics isn't that important to the discussion I think.

It is, because a- it's a waste of ressources
b- it's alienating popular support, which is essential in Templars doing their duty well. The fatc that common people are helping mages, which I believe is due to her encroachement and her excessive repression, is a very big reason as to why order can't be restored.
c- it's a psychological strain. Meredith is already bordering on instability as it is, she doens't need further pressure.

Fair enough. But I'm inclined to think that even with Meredith overreaching the situation wouldn't have become so explosive in the end without Orsino's incompetence quietly helping things along.

And how hated the templars are depends in part on where Hawke throws her support. If Hawke supports the templars many are happy to go along with her.

The commoners still dislike her and the guards also do. Only the nobility is apparently swayed. and only because the Champion got off of her / his ass and finally did something.

The Champion really is the most useless and ineffective person in Kirkwall.

How is Meredith using Hawke during the gap between Acts? And aside from the ending of Act II, Meredith only threatens a mage Hawke if Mage Hawke isn't working with her. Which is my point, even with the idol she's willing and able to work fairly amicably with a mage who is competent, respectful and sincere in the desire to route out blood mages and maleficar. Orsino isn't. And as far as we can tell never was.

She doesn't need to use him / her 24/7 to think he / she is a useful tool.
And blackmail does not have to be abrupt. The mere fact that a KC comes up to a mages and tells him / her that she knows everything, is blackmail in and of itself, especially considering her reputation. Maybe if the mage displays as much zeal or sincerity as her, she could learn to respect him /her and I agree Orsino was not fully cooperative.

Well Meredith mentions it because she catches Mage Hawke in the act. The Qunari are the bigger issue so she gives you a pass. And depending on your Hawke she never brings the subject up again. Certainly you can consider even a completely sympathetic Apostate Hawke to be blackmailed. Or since it never comes up you can consider Hawke an ally worthy of her respect. It's implied in her interactions, at least until she goes completely loony.

If Merry is willing to let a potentially dangerous apostate run around free for years because she might be useful some time in the future, than she'd be willing to make a few compromises with a First Enchanter who was proven to be useful. Orsino was a total failure. He was supposed to work with Meredith for the benefit of the circle. He was supposed to be an advocate for his people. How can you represent your peoples interests when you are unable and unwilling to work with the one person you're supposed to be pleading their case to?

Modifié par Deztyn, 18 avril 2011 - 03:12 .

[lockdown51]

I would invoke the Right just for the sake of eugenics. Bloodmages, politics, religion, all of that stuff aside, all the mages in Kirkwall are just too stupid to live. There is no way to argue this once I present my findings. Proof can be found in the ingame cinematic where the templar storm the Gallows. The templar have to be funneled through a SINGLE OPENING! The ever so smart mages WAIT until the templar are in MELEE range, WATCH the templar cut down 3 mages, and ONLY THEN start hurling spells.

Now even my kid sister, who does not play military games, knows that your best shot of survival would have been to spam spells at the choke point. Discounting everything else, this alone proves that the mages in Kirkwall are too stupid to be allowed outside without supervision.

Modifié par lockdown51, 18 avril 2011 - 03:16 .

[Maria Caliban]

It's the Right of Annulment. Not the Rite.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Deztyn wrote...
No? Maybe not, but, I'm pretty sure the method Quintin used to conduct his research was illegal. 

Yea you'd think Hawke would report it. Or would contact the Circle to see what happened. Which brings us to this.

The Champion really is the most useless and ineffective person in Kirkwall. [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/unsure.png[/smilie]

Yep

Fair enough. But I'm inclined to think that even with Meredith overreaching the situation wouldn't have become so explosive in the end without Orsino's incompetence quietly helping things along.

Definitely, and without Ander's foolishness. All three are to blame (four if we want to count justice. Five with Hawke).

I personally attribute the most responsability to Meredith, but she is far from being the only one.

If Merry is willing to let a potentially dangerous apostate run around free for years because she might be useful some time in the future, than certainly she'd be willing to make a few compromises with a First Enchanter who was proven to be useful. Orsino was a total failure. He was supposed to work with Meredith for the benefit of the circle. He was supposed to be an advocate for his people. How can you represent your peoples interests when you are unable and unwilling to work with the one person you're supposed to be pleading their case to?

Likewise, how are you supposed to regulate and supervise a group of people, if you are not willing to cooperate with their representative?

Both are at fault, but I think Meredith had far more options than Orsino. She is in the position of power, she could afford to make the first reconciliatory moves.

And I am tempted to dismiss the mage helping Meredith argument, because it's gameplay and doesn't make much sense, like her leaving Ander's fate to Hawke also not making sense, but I am not sure it's fair. But I really don't think it makes that much sense. Like Cullen watching you do magic, even blood magic, and not even noticing. That's pushing incompetence to just.....the intelligence of rocks.  

But even so, Hawke is one person. Orsino leads the Circle. That on its own might have prompted Meredith to consider Orsino a threat, more than Hawke. Hence her willingness to be respectful.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 18 avril 2011 - 03:13 .

[TJPags]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

TJPags wrote...
Meredith may be extremely undiplomatic, and lacking in tact (she reminds me  of Loghain in that respect, a little) but I'm not willing to paint Orsino as the innocent here.  He may well have been frustrating her attempts to impose order or root out the cancer in the Gallows, and he apparently has reason to do so.

And no where did I claim he was innocent. Yea, Meredith was proven right. There's something called a self-fullfilling prophecy. Not sure how pertinente it would be to be right, when you're the one who caused it to be right. I think in large part, it was self-fullfilling prophecy here. 

And none of what you listed would have worked as well if Kirkwall's populace didn't despise her because of her encroachement and excess. If she kept focusing on her real job, instead of trying to play at politics when it isn't needed, much could have been avoided.

But I put the blame on the Chantry for thinking she is qualified to be a KC in the first place.

While I by no means am trying to say Meredith was perfect - she's a lunatic, certainly by Act 3, and quite obsessed before that - I think you missed my point.

You call it a self-fulfilling prophecy.  You imply she pushed all these mages to do what they did.  I don't think that's true.  I think she was being frustrated in her efforts by Orsino, who clearly had something to hide, both personally, and (IMO) on behalf of his mages.

Remember, we have mages from Starkhaven - not under Merediths control then - who come to the Gallows as already practicing blood mages.  And the fact that they are is never discovered, in spite of Merediths efforts.  Why not?  Did no mage in the Gallows realize Grace was a blood mage?  Did nobody bring it to Orsino's attention?  Or, perhaps, did Orsino and others know this, but keep it quiet?


*edited to add:  @Camenae - Game of Thrones was, indeed, EPIC. 

Modifié par TJPags, 18 avril 2011 - 03:19 .

[IanPolaris]

Addai67 wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Oh, we've all seen how effective Meredith and her Templars are at keeping the mages locked away in the Gallows. 

But again - the point goes well beyond the end-game events.  It is perfectly valid, given the events that play out in Kirkwall throughout the game, and the number of blood mages and abominations running rampant in the streets, for someone to conclude that the Kirkwall Circle is lost and irredeemable, thus that the Right of Annullment is warranted.

The assumption is that a full-scale mage revolt is under way.  You know that there is a mage underground that is working with the mages in the Gallows.  Annulling the Circle is a first step in dealing with the larger mage problem in the city.  And again, is also a pre-emptive strike in hopes of averting a full-scale Exalted March.  Anders condemned the mages of Kirkwall, but a sane, reasonable Hawke can act in hopes of preventing a wider slaughter.  It doesn't turn out that way- the Circles do revolt, which justifies the templar ending even further- but that is a perfectly valid rationale given what Hawke knows at the time.

This is provably wrong though.  Anders himself says that the mage underground has been all but destroyed by Act III, and the acts of outside mages (read resolutionists) would not be affected one iota by a Right of Annulment.  Meredith gets her jollies out of killing mages by this time.  It's all over her face!

-Polaris

[Foolsfolly]

I too think the "Meredith helps Mage Hawke" thing should be dismissed. It's the same fail gameplay thing as Mage Hawke continuing to use magic everywhere they go. It's a case of gameplay trumping story and lore.

Meredith had her Templars burn a Dalish elf to find Feyeriel. The Templars hunt for him through a wilderness and up a mountain far away from the city. Meredith isn't a gray kind of person. She sees the world in Black and White, just like Anders/Justice do. She would never allow a mage to run free and unchecked. She only does because BioWare couldn't be bothered to write a vastly different game based on what class of character you were.

They've very similar characters.

[KnightofPhoenix]

TJPags wrote...
While I by no means am trying to say Meredith was perfect - she's a lunatic, certainly by Act 3, and quite obsessed before that - I think you missed my point.

You call it a self-fulfilling prophecy.  You imply she pushed all these mages to do what they did.  I don't think that's true.  I think she was being frustrated in her efforts by Orsino, who clearly had something to hide, both personally, and (IMO) on behalf of his mages.

In large part, a self fullfilling prophecy yes. Not necessarily entirely so.
I think most of the frustration is coming from the fact that even the people of Kirkwall don't want to support her because of her excess. That's the major reason why the mage underground was as succesful. Not really because of Orsino. But because of popular sympathy and assistance, or at least lack of assistance to Templars.

That's what killed her efforts. If the people were still by her side, it would have been a leverage against Orsino and mages, whose options would have been restricted. Which is really negotiations 101, to limit the other party's options as much as possible without being too abrupt about it.

Remember, we have mages from Starkhaven - not under Merediths control then - who come to the Gallows as already practicing blood mages.  And the fact that they are is never discovered, in spite of Merediths efforts.  Why not?  Did no mage in the Gallows realize Grace was a blood mage?  Did nobody bring it to Orsino's attention?  Or, perhaps, did Orsino and others know this, but keep it quiet?

I don't see why no one could have realized it. In Ferelden, it turned out a large number of mages were blood mages and noe one knew. Irving may not have been the best first enchanter, but I wouldn't blame him that much for not knowing.

Considering her incompetence, I do not put much expectation on her efforts. But an important reason could be because of Templar dissidents. Some of the higher echelon mages could have been implicated as well. Or perhaps Orsino, who does seem to ignore what's happening within mage ranks. More likely, all elements combined.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 18 avril 2011 - 03:27 .

[Foolsfolly]

Polaris, you can't prove that the Annulment does not save lives. It's clear in the game play that there are demons, abominations, and mages tearing up Lowtown and the Docks away from the Gallows. They clearly can leave the island when they want to.

[IanPolaris]

Foolsfolly wrote...

Polaris, you can't prove that the Annulment does not save lives. It's clear in the game play that there are demons, abominations, and mages tearing up Lowtown and the Docks away from the Gallows. They clearly can leave the island when they want to.

I can prove the Right of Annulment isn't needed to save Kirkwall lives.  Why?  Because the mages are already locked away on an island with very restricted (at best) and thus easily guardable access to the city....assuming the very worst about the underground tunnels.

In short, the "save the town" argument is a crock designed to make annulment invokers feel better about it.  Meredith doesn't bother and doesn't care about the town.  She has mages to kill and makes that attitude crystal clear.

I also am not required to show it either.  All I have to argue is the negative.  Unless you can show that every member of the circle deserved to die when the order was issued, the Right of Annulment is clearly morally wrong especially when the Circle is isolated and can be quarantined...and the actual guilty party (Anders) tried and punished.

-Polaris

[TJPags]

Again - we saw how well the mages were kept locked up throughout the game.

[KnightofPhoenix]

IanPolaris wrote...
I can prove the Right of Annulment isn't needed to save Kirkwall lives.  Why?  Because the mages are already locked away on an island with very restricted (at best) and thus easily guardable access to the city....assuming the very worst about the underground tunnels.

Actually for some reason, there were mages outside with Orsino. I have no idea why the Templars would allow that much mages outside. Rocks would make better guards.