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[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...
Meredith is right that the populace will see it as such, as they in fact do.  Again, this is not a drawing room with politicians debating over cigars and brandy.  You don't necessarily have to "declare a war" to be in one.

But she doesn't even try to avert it, when an attempt was possible (which makes it look like an excuse and indeed, she wanted to annul before that). As a Templar, her job is not to sate popular bloodlust, especially when it's not warranted. Had she tried sealing the mages in the Gallows and negotiating with the populace, publically executing Anders to alleviate their anger and emphasizing that the Circle is innocent of this crime, I do not think the people would be as bold as to besiege the Gallows and kill Templars to get to mages.

If her attempts fail and the people do not show signs of relenting, then she can turn on mages.   She's still be responsable for all her blunders before.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 18 avril 2011 - 05:09 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Deztyn wrote...
By the endgame, I agree.

Before that I see them as two seperate issues about to meet in a head on collision (That then causes a massive 200 car pile-up).

Well to understand the collusion, we need to understand the root causes. Like if it's drunk drivers. And to be more complex, we have to ask the question, why are they drunk? Where were the police?
And with this problematization, we can try to come up with a thesis.

Still stuck on final exams mode btw

Sure, but it depends on what you think Meredith's motives are. Is her strictness a reaction to problems within the circle? If so, a more accomodating First Enchanter would have made a big difference. Or did she create the problem by being strict? If that's the case it might not matter that Orsino was a useless moron.

I am leaning more towards the latter. Even in her attempts to show sympathy for mages, it ends up being pity more than respect. With Gregoir, you can feel he had genuine respect for Irving. 

The same applies to her politics. Does she take such an active role in Kirkwall's running because of the moderate Viscount's ineffectiveness at dealing with problems like the refugees? Or is he ineffective partly because of Meredith even then and she's just plain old power hungry?

She put Dumar as Viscount precisely because he was weak.

Now I'm imagining Orsino and Meredith as bratty little siblings with Elthina as their mother.

Elthina: Meredith! Stop tormenting Orsino, and go back to your room like a good girl!
Meredith: But it's not fair! He started it!
Orsino: *Blows a rasberry at Meredith*

... actually that's a pretty accurate view of the game isn't it?

And Elthina of course saying that the absent father will someday come back and fix this mess....even if she believes he is not supposed to come back.

Yep, perfect fit!

And this is where my utter loathing of the idol peeks through. It's almost impossible to guess what Meredith would do or think without the damn thing because we never get to see her without it. At the very least, I'm inclined to think that as long as she believed she had some measure of control over Hawke (Carver or Bethany) she'd be able to keep working with Hawke indefinitely.

Yea possibly, if Carver and bethany are in the Gallows. but other than that? I doubt it. 
But yes, I share your loathing of the idol.

[Deztyn]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Still stuck on final exams mode btw

You have my sympathy.

I am leaning more towards the latter. Even in her attempts to show sympathy for mages, it ends up being pity more than respect. With Gregoir, you can feel he had genuine respect for Irving. 

To be fair, I haven't met many mages in Kirkwall worthy of respect. Certainly not Orsino.

The same applies to her politics. Does she take such an active role in Kirkwall's running because of the moderate Viscount's ineffectiveness at dealing with problems like the refugees? Or is he ineffective partly because of Meredith even then and she's just plain old power hungry?

She put Dumar as Viscount precisely because he was weak.

I know there's a very biased codex entry that says something like that, but is it ever mentioned anywhere else?

Actually, nevermind, it probably is true considering the circumstances that led to Threnhold being torn down.

Modifié par Deztyn, 18 avril 2011 - 05:37 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Deztyn wrote...
To be fair, I haven't met many mages in Kirkwall worthy of respect. Certainly not Orsino.

Yea one flaw of DA2 is not even trying to show a respectable mage around.

Truly, most of the discussion here, imo, is not due to the game being good or complex, but rather how it's so confusing and banal it was. If Origins did not set up the question before, I doubt DA2 would have managed to properly introduce the issue. I know I probably wouldn't have given a damn.

She put Dumar as Viscount precisely because he was weak.

I know there's a very biased codex entry that says something like that, but is it ever mentioned anywhere else?

That same Codex also happens to praise Dumar to a certain extent. I think the codex is exagerrating, but I do not feel it's completely inaccurate. Codexes are not absolute fact, but when that's the only codex shown vis a vis Dumar, one could argue that the writers wanted the Viscount to be seen that way. The source is biased, but also apparently knowledgeable of Kirkwall politics. May not be proof, but I'd consider it strong evidence.

I think some in the game also mention it, but I can't recall who.

And thanks for the sympathies!

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 18 avril 2011 - 05:44 .

[Rifneno]

Foolsfolly wrote...

Damn right I think they do. I don't believe in descimination, sorry if that makes me the bad guy.

It's discrimination with a purpose not just because someone is born a certain way or believes a certain thing. Mages are dangerous. The only country without a Circle is the one with massive amounts of slaves and slavers. The same people who built Kirkwall to make a lake of blood to power some unknown spell.

Because I don't buy that Tevinter would be all sunshine and rainbows without magic.  Mages are a scapegoat for some tyrants who happened to use magic as their tool of oppression.  In fact by far the most evil mage in the series, the Countress of the Blackmarsh, was based off a real person.  And she was toned down!

The entire point of the Fenris character is to remind the player that power corrupts and mages have more power than anyone else.

Well I agree with half of that.  What you don't seem to realize is that it's the Chantry who has more power than anyone else.  Power sure has corrupted though.

Addai67 wrote...

Meredith is right that the populace will see it as such, as they in fact do.  Again, this is not a drawing room with politicians debating over cigars and brandy.  You don't necessarily have to "declare a war" to be in one.

Funny how that reasoning never works for Anders, but the templars can get away with it.

Foolsfolly wrote...

Freeing the mages would be a big rallying cry for other Circles (I have no idea how killing them makes Hawke a rallying cry for mages but whatever Varric) but without law and order and a way to enforce it the mages will run rampant.

Varric says it's "a reminder of their brutal oppression."  It's not a rallying cry in a positive way but in a "gets their blood boiling" way.  Like I imagine some unkind words are said about a certain bearded coward before allied forces raid a terrorist hideout.

Look at this way, if you Annul the Circle the people of Kirkwall demand Hawke becomes Viscount. They are overjoyed at being saved by another massive threat to them. If you side with the mages Hawke's a fugitive. Ultimately they both run off (for DLC no doubt) but the fact that Kirkwall celebrates one choice and not the other should show the state of Kirkwall once the mages are "free".

Two problems with that.  First, a good portion of the reason they feel that way about mages is because the Chantry preaches magic is a curse.  No matter what era, no matter what country, there's always a whole lot of idiots using their religious views as a basis for bigotry or worse.  Second, the Viscount position in Kirkwall is held by the templars.  Well, not that a templar is in the position, but they very clearly control who gets office in Kirkwall.  Hawke getting it only if aligning with them is no surprise.  Sadly, pro-mage Hawke is never given the option to invoke a Right of Annulment on the templars in Kirkwall, so we don't know how it would play out if the Chantry's military lost their strangehold.

[Addai]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
Meredith is right that the populace will see it as such, as they in fact do.  Again, this is not a drawing room with politicians debating over cigars and brandy.  You don't necessarily have to "declare a war" to be in one.

But she doesn't even try to avert it, when an attempt was possible (which makes it look like an excuse and indeed, she wanted to annul before that). As a Templar, her job is not to sate popular bloodlust, especially when it's not warranted. Had she tried sealing the mages in the Gallows and negotiating with the populace, publically executing Anders to alleviate their anger and emphasizing that the Circle is innocent of this crime, I do not think the people would be as bold as to besiege the Gallows and kill Templars to get to mages.

If her attempts fail and the people do not show signs of relenting, then she can turn on mages.   She's still be responsable for all her blunders before.

Well in what I consider my canon playthrough that's why I couldn't side with her, but Hawke can easily see the matter differently.  The city is a tinderbox and the Grand Cleric already considering an Exalted March.  You could decide that annulment is the only way to head off what is certain to be a disaster.

[Addai]

Rifneno wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Meredith is right that the populace will see it as such, as they in fact do.  Again, this is not a drawing room with politicians debating over cigars and brandy.  You don't necessarily have to "declare a war" to be in one.

Funny how that reasoning never works for Anders, but the templars can get away with it.

This again.  Anders has nothing to do with this.  Whether you choose to fight the templars or the mages, it's an attempt to clean up his mess.  So let's leave him out of it, alright?

[Rifneno]

Addai67 wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Meredith is right that the populace will see it as such, as they in fact do.  Again, this is not a drawing room with politicians debating over cigars and brandy.  You don't necessarily have to "declare a war" to be in one.

Funny how that reasoning never works for Anders, but the templars can get away with it.

This again.  Anders has nothing to do with this.  Whether you choose to fight the templars or the mages, it's an attempt to clean up his mess.  So let's leave him out of it, alright?

No.

[Herr Uhl]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

That same Codex also happens to praise Dumar to a certain extent. I think the codex is exagerrating, but I do not feel it's completely inaccurate. Codexes are not absolute fact, but when that's the only codex shown vis a vis Dumar, one could argue that the writers wanted the Viscount to be seen that way. The source is biased, but also apparently knowledgeable of Kirkwall politics. May not be proof, but I'd consider it strong evidence.

I think some in the game also mention it, but I can't recall who.

Seneschal Bran I think. And it is codices.

[Addai]

Rifneno wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Meredith is right that the populace will see it as such, as they in fact do.  Again, this is not a drawing room with politicians debating over cigars and brandy.  You don't necessarily have to "declare a war" to be in one.

Funny how that reasoning never works for Anders, but the templars can get away with it.

This again.  Anders has nothing to do with this.  Whether you choose to fight the templars or the mages, it's an attempt to clean up his mess.  So let's leave him out of it, alright?

No.

Then be my guest- spit out your false comparison like a broken record.  It'll be as weak an argument as it was the first time.

[Rifneno]

Addai67 wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Meredith is right that the populace will see it as such, as they in fact do.  Again, this is not a drawing room with politicians debating over cigars and brandy.  You don't necessarily have to "declare a war" to be in one.

Funny how that reasoning never works for Anders, but the templars can get away with it.

This again.  Anders has nothing to do with this.  Whether you choose to fight the templars or the mages, it's an attempt to clean up his mess.  So let's leave him out of it, alright?

No.

Then be my guest- spit out your false comparison like a broken record.  It'll be as weak an argument as it was the first time.

No comparison.  I'm pointing out your double-standard.

[Deztyn]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Deztyn wrote...
To be fair, I haven't met many mages in Kirkwall worthy of respect. Certainly not Orsino.

Yea one flaw of DA2 is not even trying to show a respectable mage around.

Truly, most of the discussion here, imo, is not due to the game being good or complex, but rather how it's so confusing and banal it was. If Origins did not set up the question before, I doubt DA2 would have managed to properly introduce the issue. I know I probably wouldn't have given a damn.

LOL. So true. The game does have it's good points, but the main conflict was badly executed. It's most interesting in how it expands the issues from Origins. And I can't help but notice that most of the people arguing about Mages vs. Templars now are the same people who were arguing it then. Just with new talking points.

That same Codex also happens to praise Dumar to a certain extent. I think the codex is exagerrating, but I do not feel it's completely inaccurate. Codexes are not absolute fact, but when that's the only codex shown vis a vis Dumar, one could argue that the writers wanted the Viscount to be seen that way. The source is biased, but also apparently knowledgeable of Kirkwall politics. May not be proof, but I'd consider it strong evidence.

Fair enough. Meredith was power hungry. Or feared another Threnhold taking power, so took it herself.

Modifié par Deztyn, 18 avril 2011 - 07:00 .

[Foolsfolly]

Yea one flaw of DA2 is not even trying to show a respectable mage around.

Truly, most of the discussion here, imo, is not due to the game being good or complex, but rather how it's so confusing and banal it was. If Origins did not set up the question before, I doubt DA2 would have managed to properly introduce the issue. I know I probably wouldn't have given a damn.

KoP you bring up a fair point. I cannot imagine what a newbie to the series thought about Act 3. Who cares about the mages in that game? Almost all of my sympathy came from Origins. DA2 does not make you care about either side and then it dominates the final, short, mess of an act.

It almost relies too much on Westerner opinions on freedom and democracy too much. Because there's nothing in-game to really make you care one way or the other on the issue.

Hell, my second character was a Pro-Templar Hawke. I was pro-Templar from the beginning of the game and I didn't unlock the Mage Hunter Achievement (which requires siding with the Templars 5 times). 5 times. That's it. I must have just sided with them 4 times. I have no idea what I missed, but that's how small the choice to side with them is. You can be Pro-Templar and still not side with them 5 times in the whole game.

It's not much of an issue until it dominates the game for the final act.

@ Rifneno:

Two problems with that. First, a good portion of the reason they feel that way about mages is because the Chantry preaches magic is a curse.

I'm going to stop you right there. The nobility decide the Viscount and if you're Pro-Mage it's shown rather well that the nobility support the mages and see Meredith as a threat and a tyrant. If they support a Pro-Templar for Viscount and not a Pro-Mage that speaks volumes of the state of Kirkwall post Pro-Mage ending.

Second, the Viscount position in Kirkwall is held by the templars. Well, not that a templar is in the position,

Meredith definitely appointed Dumar and dethroned the last Viscount. Without Meredith and with the Templars defeated at the Gallows....i have no idea if the Templars hold as much power. Especially after they break away from the Chantry.

Your guess is as good as mine in this spot. It all depends on the strength of the defeated Templars who are no longer a part of the Chantry.

This again. Anders has nothing to do with this. Whether you choose to fight the templars or the mages, it's an attempt to clean up his mess. So let's leave him out of it, alright?

It's the same thing with bringing up Meredith as the example of all Templars. Meredith and Anders are both mad because of an external force and both act irrationally in the finale.

They're two sides of the same coin.

[Dave of Canada]

Mages die, I'm made Viscount and I drink fine champagne in my new city.

End of story.

[JabbaDaHutt30]

The Angry One wrote...

JabbaDaHutt30 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

JabbaDaHutt30 wrote...

how more rotten can you get?

Kerras and Alrik are corrupt and take advantage of their position.
Varnell takes his teachings literally and allowed himself to be manipulated by Petrice - he is an idiot, but he's nowhere near the level of those two, or someone like Grace.

so organizing lynch mobs, torturing and killing qunari doesn't count...?

I could argue it's not really murder to kill a robot with no free will...
But seriously, it appears bad. But you know what? The Qunari are in a de facto state of war with the rest of Thedas by their own admission. Thedas just believes in a treaty so much that the Qunari can bide their time and prepare.
So really, ambushing and attacking the enemy is not the same as victimising innocents, no matter the crude methods used.
That said, he is still a moron. He's simply not on the same level as others.

They're only at war with the Tevinter Imperium from what I understand...

They were definitely not at war with the Free Marches at that point in the story.

Modifié par JabbaDaHutt30, 18 avril 2011 - 10:01 .

[JabbaDaHutt30]

Torax wrote...

JabbaDaHutt30 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

JabbaDaHutt30 wrote...

how more rotten can you get?

Kerras and Alrik are corrupt and take advantage of their position.
Varnell takes his teachings literally and allowed himself to be manipulated by Petrice - he is an idiot, but he's nowhere near the level of those two, or someone like Grace.

so organizing lynch mobs, torturing and killing qunari doesn't count...?

It doesn't count for your little "Right of Annulment" argument no...

what?

[IanPolaris]

Foolsfolly wrote...

I'm going to stop you right there. The nobility decide the Viscount and if you're Pro-Mage it's shown rather well that the nobility support the mages and see Meredith as a threat and a tyrant. If they support a Pro-Templar for Viscount and not a Pro-Mage that speaks volumes of the state of Kirkwall post Pro-Mage ending.

Speak to Seneschal Bran and you'll understand why a pro-mage Hawke can never be Viscount and the City Nobility has nothing to do with it.  In fact IF you side with the mages, the nobles will stick their necks out and actively revolt against the Templars. This by itself is extremely remarkable given the fate of Dumar's predecessor.  Howver, as Bran explains, Meredith has essentially taken over the city and the Templars hold de-facto veto power over the next Viscount, and once something like that is aknowledged, there is no way the Templars are ever going to give up that sort of secular power (in fact it's why the Knight Commander and Templars aren't supposed to have that sort of power to start with!) 

What that means, is if you side with the Mages, the largest army (even after the end of the game) tells the nobles, "You vote for the Champion over your dead bodies" and the Templars continue to rule Kirkwall.  Indeed (as speculation on my part) I imagine a large part of the reason the Templars broke away from the Chantry is post Meredith an appallled Divine told acting Knight Captain Cullen, "You must step down as acting Viscount" and Knight Captain Cullen said, "After what just happened wih those evil mages?  HELL NO.  Make me step down....and that was that."

-Polaris

[EmperorSahlertz]

The Templars initiated a martial law in Kirkwall. Martial law is not supposed to be lifted until the situation is under control. Meredith did not deem the Circle under control, thus the martial law continued, and the Viscount seat was left empty.

[The Angry One]

JabbaDaHutt30 wrote...

They're only at war with the Tevinter Imperium from what I understand...

They were definitely not at war with the Free Marches at that point in the story.

To the Qunari, the treaty is a piece of paper that the rest of Thedas believes in and they don't.
They will break it any time they see fit because to them there is no treaty, they are therefore in a state of war.

[IanPolaris]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The Templars initiated a martial law in Kirkwall. Martial law is not supposed to be lifted until the situation is under control. Meredith did not deem the Circle under control, thus the martial law continued, and the Viscount seat was left empty.

Meredith had no intention of ever lifting martial law.  If you challenge her on this point, she all but admits it.

Seneschal Bran makes it very clear that because of this, the Templars rule Kirkwall and no one can be elected by the nobility to Viscount without the Templar's OK.  That's why you only become Viscount if you side with the Templars.  The attitude of the town has little to do with it.  If it were up to the nobility, the Champion of Kirkwall (by being champion) would have been named the new Visount by acclaimation after the Qunari were defeated (the only possible exception would be if the Champion were an open apostate....but then people would look to Carver).

-Polaris

[Foolsfolly]

Yep. Meredith's a power hunger loon.

She's also dead regardless of where you stand. She's not going to be in the way for anyone to rise to Viscount.

The whole leadership of the city's dead. Anyone can rise in that situation if they had the will power to do it.

[OldMan91]

The whole leadership of the city's dead. Anyone can rise in that situation if they had the will power to do it.

The leadership of the city isn't dead. Cullen would step in replacing Meredith. Regardless of how much willpower you have or how much a Mage-siding Hawke wants to be viscount, the templars control Kirkwall. It's not just 50 or so templars like in Ferelden, it's an entire damned quasi-army. Do you understand? If you try to act, or even if every noble tried to do something, you, your friends or the nobles would be cut down. They will not allow it. It doesn't matter if you can cast inferno on a group of Templars, they will overwhelm you. That is the reason why your Hawke has to leave Kirkwall. You are in the eyes of the Templars an apostate, who supported rebellious and possibly blood mages.

Modifié par OldMan91, 18 avril 2011 - 11:44 .

[Foolsfolly]

And if you're Pro-Templar you easily slaughter a hundred, possibly more, Templars. They suffer a great defeat at the Gallows and seemingly only have about 20 remaining before Hawke runs off. And at some point...I have no idea when, they break off from the Chantry to hunt mages.

They don't exactly seem to be the sitting and controlling type without Meredith anymore.

But it's all speculation any damn way. The game doesn't show us any consequence for anything. We get a paragraph wrap up from Varric, a tease from Leliana, and then a symbol glows for some reason.

[OldMan91]

Foolsfolly wrote...

And if you're Pro-Templar you easily slaughter a hundred, possibly more, Templars. They suffer a great defeat at the Gallows and seemingly only have about 20 remaining before Hawke runs off. And at some point...I have no idea when, they break off from the Chantry to hunt mages.

Gameplay and story segregation. I wouldn't take the numbers of Templars you kill at face value. If you did, half of Kirkwall would have been emptied out by Act 3. Hawke would have also killed more people than Anders ever did by blowing up the Chantry, which would make Hawke even more of a mass murderer than Anders.

But it's all speculation any damn way. The game doesn't show us any consequence for anything. We get a paragraph wrap up from Varric, a tease from Leliana, and then a symbol glows for some reason.

The ending was pretty underwhelming, wasn't it? It's kept intentionally vague, so that any future expansions or games can easily be continued without having to consider 50 different endings for 50 different people or events.

A tease from Leliana though is all I need. My fictional crush can endure even the most rational and logical arguments you make. You cannot stop me. Not even with 10000 men could you do this. It is folly.

Modifié par OldMan91, 18 avril 2011 - 12:10 .

[In Exile]

Deztyn wrote...
LOL. So true. The game does have it's good points, but the main conflict was badly executed. It's most interesting in how it expands the issues from Origins. And I can't help but notice that most of the people arguing about Mages vs. Templars now are the same people who were arguing it then. Just with new talking points.

There are lots of innocent mages who are oppressed - but I think this is the one time Bioware doesn't per se fail to convey their intent, because I don't think it makes sense to see innocent mages. If you walk around the Gallows you can see some real instances of travesty, like the one mage who was made tranquil and who doesn't recognize her lover, or poor Alain's abuse.

But if Kirkwall was so oppresive, why should we have innocent mages freely walking about Kirkwall? To that extent it would suggest the templars are actually quite good at their jobs re: only capturing the guilty. It makes Meredith insane to want the Rite, but it doesn't make sense for the mages to actually complain.

The real issue is that all the mages made tranquil or abused and the extent to which mages are just out and out imprisoned in the Gallows, that's the problem.

I think that Act II should have had a 'bust Hawke or Bethany' out of the Circle portion, and then you could have the qunari uprising as that thing that makes Hawke Champion.

All you'd need to change was the Act II intro and it would allow us to see inside the gallows which is the whole problem.