352 réponses à ce sujet

[Apollo Starflare]

Foolsfolly wrote...

The annulment of Kirkwall's Circle was an injustice, and anybody who thinks it was a good call should be standing trial at the Dragon Age equivalent of Nuremberg.

Son, we live in a world that has walls, and those walls have to be guarded by men with swords. Who's gonna do it? You? You, The Big Nothing? I have a greater responsibility than you can possibly fathom! You weep for the Mages and you curse the Templars. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know: that the Annulment, while tragic, probably saved lives. And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves lives! You don't want the truth, because deep down in places you don't talk about at parties, you want me on that wall! You need me on that wall! We use words like "honor", "code", "loyalty". We use these words as the backbone of a life spent defending something. You use them as a punchline! I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it! I would rather you just said "Thank you," and went on your way. Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a weapon, and stand a post. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think you are entitled to!

That, was a great post. I tip my hat to you sir.

Although the funny thing about these threads is, really, there is no truly 'correct' option in that scenario. Everything leads to chaos and death and all you can do is stick with what you believe in, if that happens to be law and order as the game presents it in the hope of saving civilian lives? Whose to say that it is evil. There are plenty of negative repurcussions to consider when siding with the Mages that goes beyond the fact it should be Anders taking the full blame (even though, y'know, it shouldn't).

[The Big Nothing]

Kazanth wrote...

The Big Nothing wrote...

Kazanth wrote...

The Big Nothing wrote...
Were it true, one percent of those slaughtered are still innocent people born into magic, and those are not acceptable losses.

Then what is an acceptable loss? Losing the entire city to dangerous mages?

The city wasn't at risk. A few maleficarum in seven years isn't risky. The Ferelden Circle was much more dire and it was still salvaged. 

We're talking about the hypothetical situation you mentioned with 99% of the Circle being maleficarum. In which case Kirkwall would definately be at risk.

My next line was "and it wasn't true". The majority of mages turned to blood magic only when the Circle offered no protection from the wrath of the Templars, after the Annulment was invoked.

Modifié par The Big Nothing, 17 avril 2011 - 06:36 .

[The Big Nothing]

Apollo Starflare wrote...

Foolsfolly wrote...

The annulment of Kirkwall's Circle was an injustice, and anybody who thinks it was a good call should be standing trial at the Dragon Age equivalent of Nuremberg.

Son, we live in a world that has walls, and those walls have to be guarded by men with swords. Who's gonna do it? You? You, The Big Nothing? I have a greater responsibility than you can possibly fathom! You weep for the Mages and you curse the Templars. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know: that the Annulment, while tragic, probably saved lives. And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves lives! You don't want the truth, because deep down in places you don't talk about at parties, you want me on that wall! You need me on that wall! We use words like "honor", "code", "loyalty". We use these words as the backbone of a life spent defending something. You use them as a punchline! I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it! I would rather you just said "Thank you," and went on your way. Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a weapon, and stand a post. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think you are entitled to!

That, was a great post. I tip my hat to you sir.

Although the funny thing about these threads is, really, there is no truly 'correct' option in that scenario. Everything leads to chaos and death and all you can do is stick with what you believe in, if that happens to be law and order as the game presents it in the hope of saving civilian lives? Whose to say that it is evil. There are plenty of negative repurcussions to consider when siding with the Mages that goes beyond the fact it should be Anders taking the full blame (even though, y'know, it shouldn't).

His post is a quote from 'A Few Good Men'. Haha.

[Cutlass Jack]

The Big Nothing wrote...

My next line was "and it wasn't true". The majority of mages turned to blood magic only when the Circle offered no protection from the wrath of the Templars, after the Annulment was invoked.

The majority of mages in the game turned to blood magic when things got even slightly stressful. And apparently seeing the Champion coming to help them fell squarely on the 'stressful' list.

[Isaidlunch]

The Big Nothing wrote...

My next line was "and it wasn't
true". The majority of mages turned to blood magic only when the Circle
offered no protection from the wrath of the Templars.

You're missing my point, do you really believe it would be right to
risk an entire city to keep those 1% of innocent mages alive in that
hypothetical situation? Because that's exactly what you said on the first page.

Modifié par Kazanth, 17 avril 2011 - 06:51 .

[Girl on a Rock]

Torax wrote...

Just what we need. Another thread on the right of the annulment. I mean we never have enough of these threads. Just face it that Meredith was bat chit crazy and move on. It's not like anyone can stop her. There is no Shepard interupt to shoot her in the forehead.

There are not enough hearts in the world for you right now.

<3<3<3<3<3<3<3

[Foolsfolly]

Cheers, Apollo Starflare.

[Girl on a Rock]

Foolsfolly wrote...

The annulment of Kirkwall's Circle was an injustice, and anybody who thinks it was a good call should be standing trial at the Dragon Age equivalent of Nuremberg.

Son, we live in a world that has walls, and those walls have to be guarded by men with swords. Who's gonna do it? You? You, The Big Nothing? I have a greater responsibility than you can possibly fathom! You weep for the Mages and you curse the Templars. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know: that the Annulment, while tragic, probably saved lives. And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves lives! You don't want the truth, because deep down in places you don't talk about at parties, you want me on that wall! You need me on that wall! We use words like "honor", "code", "loyalty". We use these words as the backbone of a life spent defending something. You use them as a punchline! I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it! I would rather you just said "Thank you," and went on your way. Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a weapon, and stand a post. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think you are entitled to!

Despite the fact that I'm pretty consistently pro-mage, this is another post for which there are not enough hearts in the world, for totally different reasons. I LOL'd for real. Brilliant.

<3<3<3<3<3<3<3

[Girl on a Rock]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

My alarm bells are more set off by the people who want to romance their sister...

WORD.    D:

[wowpwnslol]

The Big Nothing wrote...

One mage bombs a Chantry and the paranoid Templar Knight-Commander uses this to justify the slaughter of every mage in Kirkwall. Still, the true villain is neither mages nor templars, but Anders, who was still a man when he fused with the spirit of Justice; only when he succumbed to his thirst for vengeance and knowingly murdered innocents did he cease to be a man and become an abomination.
The annulment of Kirkwall's Circle was an injustice, and anybody who thinks it was a good call should be standing trial at the Dragon Age equivalent of Nuremberg.

- TBN


 

I couldn't care less about Anders and him killing some religious old woman.

A mage brutally murderered and mutilated my mother.  All mages deserve destruction. I enjoyed carving up the pansy robe wearers with my warrior.

[Riona45]

The Big Nothing wrote...
The annulment of Kirkwall's Circle was an injustice, and anybody who thinks it was a good call should be standing trial at the Dragon Age equivalent of Nuremberg.


 

That's a bit much, don't you think?

[Girl on a Rock]

Riona45 wrote...

The Big Nothing wrote...
The annulment of Kirkwall's Circle was an injustice, and anybody who thinks it was a good call should be standing trial at the Dragon Age equivalent of Nuremberg.


 

That's a bit much, don't you think?

I'm surprised nobody's called Godwin's law on that yet...

[Torax]

Thedas is a very chaotic place. The characters in Thedas at times are not sympathetic to others around them. Those without the ability to wield magic fear those that can. It's how it is. The player character is unbeatable so they have no fear of the blood mages. They fall like the Qunari and all others that cannot defeat 1,000,000,000 Plot Armor. So now you have the normal citizens. They fear the bandits at night. They probably fear all those weird people in hoods that just stand around kirkwall all the time. The Templars have to watch and guard against Mages while also keep an eye on anyone that want to do harm to said mages.

Some mages like being in the Circle, but many didn't go there by choice and will fight it. Many in Kirkwall turned to Blood Magic as a tool for freedom. That happened in Fereldon as well. Most of the Circle in Fereldon was destroyed. There was like 12 mages that joined the final battle in Denerim. Just 12. So that should give you an idea with how well the circle in Fereldon faired. Meanwhile in the Kirkwall Circle even the First Enchanter was one of the ones practicing Blood Magic. He even participated in research for Necromancy. So to a point when coupled with Meredith's paranoia and fear from when her sister became an abomination. It was just a volatile situation whether players like it or not. But lets not forget that Orsino was hiding his Blood Magic use and lord knows how many others around him that he either taught or knew full well were also blood mages. He even let Hawke see some of them as a peace offering to probably have Hawke on his side since Hawke had just helped Meredith find 3 apostates.

No answer was a truly good one. There were innocents and villains in the Order and in the Circle. Should also remember the fringe in the dlc the Resolutionists that are like a millitant branch of the Liberatarians who were also out there in Kirkwall. Yes the Right of Annulment is evil and would kill non blood mages if Meredith is commanding it. But lets also not pretend that many in the Circle probably drove it to that point. Especially Orsino.

edited to add.

p.s. I have NEVER sided with the Templars. But I won't sit and forget that many of the Circle are dirty and deserved to die. Especially Orsino.

Modifié par Torax, 17 avril 2011 - 06:58 .

[Foolsfolly]

Girl on a Rock wrote...

Riona45 wrote...

The Big Nothing wrote...
The annulment of Kirkwall's Circle was an injustice, and anybody who thinks it was a good call should be standing trial at the Dragon Age equivalent of Nuremberg.


 

That's a bit much, don't you think?

I'm surprised nobody's called Godwin's law on that yet...

The game has a character championing a "Tranquil Solution." Godwin was involved before a player touched the disc.

[Girl on a Rock]

Foolsfolly wrote...

The game has a character championing a "Tranquil Solution." Godwin was involved before a player touched the disc.

LULZ. True.

[Riona45]

Torax wrote...
 Most of the Circle in Fereldon was destroyed. There was like 12 mages that joined the final battle in Denerim. Just 12. So that should give you an idea with how well the circle in Fereldon faired.

Well, all the allies you get come in low numbers--it's clearly not supposed to be taken literally.  The cutscene before the battle showed a lot more than 12 mages marching to battle. 

[Torax]

Riona45 wrote...

Torax wrote...
 Most of the Circle in Fereldon was destroyed. There was like 12 mages that joined the final battle in Denerim. Just 12. So that should give you an idea with how well the circle in Fereldon faired.

Well, all the allies you get come in low numbers--it's clearly not supposed to be taken literally.  The cutscene before the battle showed a lot more than 12 mages marching to battle. 

They probably died to random spawns of Genlocks/Hurlocks and a Alpha or 2. I mean those apprentices were pretty damn squishy.

Magic! 

[Riona45]

Torax wrote...
They probably died to random spawns of Genlocks/Hurlocks and a Alpha or 2. I mean those apprentices were pretty damn squishy.

The point.  You missed it.

[Torax]

Riona45 wrote...

Torax wrote...
They probably died to random spawns of Genlocks/Hurlocks and a Alpha or 2. I mean those apprentices were pretty damn squishy.

The point.  You missed it.

That you saw more of them in the cinematic. Yeah I did to. was just joking about how easily apprentices died in random travels. Where it was the 1 mage and like 4 apprentices who get attacked by Darkspawn  

[Foolsfolly]

Riona45 wrote...

Torax wrote...
They probably died to random spawns of Genlocks/Hurlocks and a Alpha or 2. I mean those apprentices were pretty damn squishy.

The point.  You missed it.

He was just making a joke. We've all discussed the same issues over and over and over in circles for over a month. The jokes keep the place light and friendly.

[Torax]

Foolsfolly wrote...

Riona45 wrote...

Torax wrote...
They probably died to random spawns of Genlocks/Hurlocks and a Alpha or 2. I mean those apprentices were pretty damn squishy.

The point.  You missed it.

He was just making a joke. We've all discussed the same issues over and over and over in circles for over a month. The jokes keep the place light and friendly.

We should seize moments of levity, especially in troubled times. 

[Zeevico]

The Right of Annulment is basically a right to commit indiscriminate murder against mages irrespective of the guilt or innocence of the individual mages in question. So no, it isn't morally justified at all.

Modifié par Zeevico, 17 avril 2011 - 07:15 .

[Torax]

Zeevico wrote...

The Right of Annulment is basically a right to commit indiscriminate murder against mages irrespective of the guilt or innocence of the individual mages in question. So no, it isn't morally justified at all.

Granted we're dealing with a World full of religious bigots what has many believing of Magic as a Sin. So all who can wield magic are evil or sinful and not seen as the same as those around them. Since it's easier to believe them as inferior instead of more powerful than you. It's easier to get a mob to side with you against the mages than to get them to sympathize with people that can set their hair on fire. That is the nature of it in Thedas. Even the Qunari see magic as a danger since mages are easily vulnerable to demons. It's easy for us to see it as not being morally justified. We just have to remember that many in Thedas do not even see the Mages as deserving of mercy or to a point as even humans or elves. We see people born with something out of their control. Many in Thedas see them all as monsters to be punish and feared.

[Deztyn]

Zeevico wrote...

The Right of Annulment is basically a right to commit indiscriminate murder against mages irrespective of the guilt or innocence of the individual mages in question. So no, it isn't morally justified at all.

Correction: The Right of Annulment is an order to protect the innocent masses who are helpless against magic at the cost of a lesser number of innocent kitten bombs mages.


It might not be a very nice order, but in some circumstances it can be morally justified.

Modifié par Deztyn, 17 avril 2011 - 07:26 .

[hoorayforicecream]

What really makes me laugh about these debates is that there's some sort of bizarre expectation that these people have to answer to somebody. Throwing stuff like "Nuremberg" and "basic rights" and whatnot only exist when there's some sort of authority that exists to enforce those rules. I mean... who's the head honcho police of Thedas? There aren't any. There's no UN, there's no NATO, there's no law to which everyone in Thedas is beholden. Rights that some folks might have in Ferelden may or may not exist in Kirkwall, Starkhaven, or Ostwick. Laws that apply in Ferelden may or may not apply in Minrathous.

As such, morality is a relativistic term. It's fine for a Tevinter to like slavery. It's fine for a Ferelden to dislike Orlesians. The best you can say is that you're being ethnocentric... according to the rules of the society that you (yes, you!) happen to live in, things are sucky for the people who live in this totally unrelated world/nation/city-state that may or may not have similar rules. And sure, that's fine to say. It's your opinion. But that's all it is.

When you start trying to apply laws, rights and regulations when there's clearly no governing body to enact or enforce them, do the laws, rights and regulations actually exist? I posit that they do not.