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[nos_astra]

Rifneno wrote...

klarabella wrote...

Rifneno wrote...
That's true to an extent, but most of the people defending the RoA are also condemning Anders for killing innocent people.  Then they're turning around and doing the same thing.  It's hypocritical.

Not exactly the same thing. Hawke is abiding by the law. Anders broke it. Hawke is trying to keep the peace an minimize casualities. Anders was doing the opposite.

The law in this case is idiotic.  Just because someone with enough military backing declared it so does not make it just.  Anders is trying to make the world a better place in the long run, as is Hawke.  Both involve killing people who did nothing wrong.  Both the ends and the means are very similar.

It doesn't matter what you think about the law. All that matters is how Hawke thinks about the law and if s/he values it that makes all the difference.

Also, Anders has no plans. He's merely starting a fire and doesn't care who will die in the flames, friend or foe. That's not good. It's reckless and bordering on stupid, but it makes sense for a man possessed by a spirit of justice/demon of vengeance.

Modifié par klarabella, 17 avril 2011 - 08:22 .

[Rifneno]

Ramus Quaritch wrote...

Honestly, Anders' plan was reckless, moronic, and stupid. He deserves to be executed, as all of that blood is on his hands. What does blowing up the Chantry accomplish? It kills some priests, a lot of civilians, and inspires the insane Meredith to invoke the Rite of Annulment. What did Anders think she would do? The mages are trapped in a prison surrounded by Templars. They are suddenly put in a horrible position of being executed. All so Anders could blow up a building, however symbolic that may be.

What he intended to accomplish is exactly what occurs.  A rebellion of the Circles.

Also, he did not inspire Meredith to invoke the RoA.  She was already trying.  He was really just speeding up the inevitable.

As for justifying the Rite of Annulment. Just look at all of the blood mages you fight in the game. Kirkwall is teeming with them. Just look at Orsino and what he's been up to. If I were the Knight Commander and we were encountering that many blood mages, I would consider the Rite of Annulment (although I would also run the Circle differently in the first place).  Again, I would "consider" it.  Emphasis on consider.  I wouldn't jump at any opportunity to use it.

Hawke does not constitute an average day in the life of Kirkwall.  Besides, how many blood mages do we encounter vs. how many mages are there locked in the Gallows being good?  We have no idea.  100?  1000?  10000?  We don't even have a ballpark.

[Nimrodell]

Ramus Quaritch wrote...

Honestly, Anders' plan was reckless, moronic, and stupid. He deserves to be executed, as all of that blood is on his hands. What does blowing up the Chantry accomplish? It kills some priests, a lot of civilians, and inspires the insane Meredith to invoke the Rite of Annulment. What did Anders think she would do? The mages are trapped in a prison surrounded by Templars. They are suddenly put in a horrible position of being executed. All so Anders could blow up a building, however symbolic that may be.

As for justifying the Rite of Annulment. Just look at all of the blood mages you fight in the game. Kirkwall is teeming with them. Just look at Orsino and what he's been up to. If I were the Knight Commander and we were encountering that many blood mages, I would consider the Rite of Annulment (although I would also run the Circle differently in the first place).  Again, I would "consider" it.  Emphasis on consider.  I wouldn't jump at any opportunity to use it.

Yes, his plan was a crime but you missed the point of it. It wasn't by accident that Anders attacked the Chantry and Elthina in it - he did that to change the state of inaction to action and he did accomplish that... Elthina is avatar of inaction. Anders did that for better or for worse and his plan was simple as that (as he actually confirms it in the Gallows). It wasn't even personal - just desperate final act to move things forward. And for that matter, it is not even entirely Anders who commits that crime - tis Vengeance, so nicely seen in rivalry path 8friendship path just gives small hints of it).

[Rifneno]

klarabella wrote...

It doesn't matter what you think about the law. All that matters is how Hawke thinks about the law and if s/he values it that makes all the difference.

Also, Anders has no plans. He's merely starting a fire and doesn't care who will die in the flames, friend or foe. That's not good. It's reckless and bordering on stupid, but it makes sense for a man possessed by a spirit of justice/demon of vengeance.

I'm not talking about Hawke, I'm talking about actual players that know better.

Just because you didn't understand what he was intending, doesn't mean he wasn't intending anything other than wanton destruction.  That's your failing, not his.

[nos_astra]

Anders says he removed the possibility of compromise, namely Elthina. How can the avatar of inaction be a possibility of compromise?

[Maria Caliban]

klarabella wrote...

Anders says he removed the possibility of compromise, namely Elthina. How can the avatar of inaction be a possibility of compromise?

Elthina refused to allow the Right of Annulment. The moment she was out of the way, Meredith could act.

[JabbaDaHutt30]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Where my tolerance ends is when an evil choice is excused and even justified not in terms of what the people of the world think, but of what we the 21st century players should think.  Failing to recognize an evil choice as an evil one by the writers of the game (not the characters in it) sets off all kinds of alarm bells.....

My alarm bells are more set off by the people who want to romance their sister...

it's not really 'their' sister so it's ok.

[JabbaDaHutt30]

[quote]Speakeasy13 wrote...

[quote]Dean_the_Young wrote...

[quote]Speakeasy13 wrote...
It's a situiation that perfectly mirrors the world today.
[/quote]
There are people in our world who have unremovable, exceptionally high chances of instant insanity against their will and can effectively blow up a city block at any given time without any equipment, supplies, or even prior intent?


[/quote]

9/11

[nos_astra]

Maria Caliban wrote...

klarabella wrote...
Anders says he removed the possibility of compromise, namely Elthina. How can the avatar of inaction be a possibility of compromise?

Elthina refused to allow the Right of Annulment. The moment she was out of the way, Meredith could act.

And Anders knew that, so he did what he did fully knowing that without Elthina keeping her in check Meredith would now perform the RoA. He was sacrificing the Kirkwall Circle for the greater good.

Doesn't sound like Elthina was doing nothing.
Also doesn't make Anders look much better than Meredith.

Modifié par klarabella, 17 avril 2011 - 08:38 .

[Benchmark]

klarabella wrote...

Anders says he removed the possibility of compromise, namely Elthina. How can the avatar of inaction be a possibility of compromise?

She wasn't. Pro- Anders agruments have to demonize Elthina so that they can agree to murdering a kind senior woman. Not to mention all the other chantry sisters. Who spend their time talking about preparing weddings and finding better ways to feed more street children in low town.

Elthina was the only thing keeping an extremely weak and ineffectual Orsino from being completely overrun by an increasingly paranoid Merdith. Orsino ran to her constantly and she spent most of her time trying to get the two side to come to an agreement. She was trying to temper Meredith and bolster Orsino. She saw them both as good people and wanted them to see reason.

Sadly, her reasonable and compassionate nature was her downfall. She never saw the situation as a lost cause. She probably should have replaced Meredith with Cullen and replaced Orsino with a mage who was willing to stamp out blood magic in the circle. Gregoir was burnt once, maybe ask him to come down from Ferelden.

[JabbaDaHutt30]

TJPags wrote...


Neither side is "right".  Neither side is "wrong".

.

nope. the people who agree with the RoA are wrong.

[Benchmark]

klarabella wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

klarabella wrote...
Anders says he removed the possibility of compromise, namely Elthina. How can the avatar of inaction be a possibility of compromise?

Elthina refused to allow the Right of Annulment. The moment she was out of the way, Meredith could act.

And Anders knew that, so he did what he did fully knowing that without Elthina keeping her in check Meredith would now perform the RoA. He was sacrificing the Kirkwall Circle for the greater good.

Doesn't sound like Elthina was doing nothing.
Also doesn't make Anders look much better than Meredith.

@ klarabella

Truth. You could actually consider Anders as complicit in calling the RoA.

[Ramus Quaritch]

My point is that that it is a dumb way to do a rebellion. If he truly cared about the mages' plight, he would have used those bombs to stage a mass prison break. He could have slowly smuggled mages out of the Circle and started forming a guerrilla resistance, growing into an army after taking in and protecting more and more mages. Then he could start a rebellion of mages around the world. Instead he just blows up a building and leaves the other mages, who are trapped in the Circle, to be killed in the Rite of Annulment.

[JabbaDaHutt30]

Benchmark wrote...

klarabella wrote...

Anders says he removed the possibility of compromise, namely Elthina. How can the avatar of inaction be a possibility of compromise?

She wasn't. Pro- Anders agruments have to demonize Elthina so that they can agree to murdering a kind senior woman. Not to mention all the other chantry sisters. Who spend their time talking about preparing weddings and finding better ways to feed more street children in low town.

Elthina was the only thing keeping an extremely weak and ineffectual Orsino from being completely overrun by an increasingly paranoid Merdith. Orsino ran to her constantly and she spent most of her time trying to get the two side to come to an agreement. She was trying to temper Meredith and bolster Orsino. She saw them both as good people and wanted them to see reason.

Sadly, her reasonable and compassionate nature was her downfall. She never saw the situation as a lost cause. She probably should have replaced Meredith with Cullen and replaced Orsino with a mage who was willing to stamp out blood magic in the circle. Gregoir was burnt once, maybe ask him to come down from Ferelden.

Orsino, at least, doesn't willingly betray Hawke. He keeps a maniac of a blood mage as a pen friend, but his desire to see mages freed from meredith's iron grip seems sincere enough.

[JabbaDaHutt30]

Ramus Quaritch wrote...

My point is that that it is a dumb way to do a rebellion. If he truly cared about the mages' plight, he would have used those bombs to stage a mass prison break. He could have slowly smuggled mages out of the Circle and started forming a guerrilla resistance, growing into an army after taking in and protecting more and more mages. Then he could start a rebellion of mages around the world. Instead he just blows up a building and leaves the other mages, who are trapped in the Circle, to be killed in the Rite of Annulment.

All I can say is that in my playthrough it was effective. Anders was spared, and mages got their support. The outcome was better than the means with which it was pursued.

Modifié par JabbaDaHutt30, 17 avril 2011 - 08:44 .

[Benchmark]

Ramus Quaritch wrote...

My point is that that it is a dumb way to do a rebellion. If he truly cared about the mages' plight, he would have used those bombs to stage a mass prison break. He could have slowly smuggled mages out of the Circle and started forming a guerrilla resistance, growing into an army after taking in and protecting more and more mages. Then he could start a rebellion of mages around the world. Instead he just blows up a building and leaves the other mages, who are trapped in the Circle, to be killed in the Rite of Annulment.

Fanatics often begin to believe that any cost is worth getting what they want. His mage underground was failing, and he probably wasn't even fully supported in the circle. The mass death of all his fellow mages, and the mass death of the chantry sisters and other random visitors to the chantry, seemed like a good idea.

[Ramus Quaritch]

Truly successful rebellions, like Rome, are not built in a day. I guess another big factor for him was that he had the spirit of Justice/Vengeance inside him.

[Uzzy]

The motivation for the annulment pre-Anders is simple. The Templars had lost control of the Mages. Regardless of the reason why this loss of control/respect occured, that's the situation, and had to be dealt with. Meredith, driven annoyingly insane (one of the worst things about the DA2 plot) felt the situation had gotten drastically out of hand due to this, and it's not hard to see why. Mages practically walking out of that 'island in the middle of a lake' and summoning demons by the dozens in Kirkwall. The First Enchanter arguing publically with the Templars. Blood Mages running amok. Naturally, other's disagreed.

What Anders did, in his own words, was to try and inspire revolt amongst the Mages. It's no wonder then that Meredith would choose to strike immediately against the main body of Mages in the city, rather then prevent them from revolting. Her choosing not to strike at Anders seemed to be more a mark of respect for the Champion of Kirkwall, and perhaps a test to see where he/she stood.

Anyway, given the dangers Mages pose to society, either willingly or unwillingly, they are lucky not to be treat like the Qun, or worse. Annulment's in general are not a bad thing, and the Kirkwall Annulment is certainly the least worst measure in a really bad situation.

[Rifneno]

Benchmark wrote...

She wasn't. Pro- Anders agruments have to demonize Elthina so that they can agree to murdering a kind senior woman.

This would be funny if it weren't so ludicrous.  The only "good" Elthina does is refuse the RoA when Meredith asks, which is basically the same as refusing to give a box of grenades to a deranged mental patient.  You'll have to forgive me if I don't build statues in her honor.  You claim she was protecting mages from Meredith?  Bull****.  If Hawke voices the opinion that Meredith goes too far, then later on during the Justice quest Elthina accuses Hawke of "fanning the flames of rebellion."  Oh heaven forbid someone tell a military commander that she goes too far when her subordinates are so corrupt and the PC's sister is the Circle exposed to rapists and killers!  Which brings up another point:  Chantry apologists always moan about how many blood mages Hawke encounters in order to justify the RoA while excusing the constant stream of downright evil templars as being a few extremists.  Sickening.

[Uzzy]

Rifneno wrote...

Benchmark wrote...

She wasn't. Pro- Anders agruments have to demonize Elthina so that they can agree to murdering a kind senior woman.

This would be funny if it weren't so ludicrous.  The only "good" Elthina does is refuse the RoA when Meredith asks, which is basically the same as refusing to give a box of grenades to a deranged mental patient.  You'll have to forgive me if I don't build statues in her honor.  You claim she was protecting mages from Meredith?  Bull****.  If Hawke voices the opinion that Meredith goes too far, then later on during the Justice quest Elthina accuses Hawke of "fanning the flames of rebellion."  Oh heaven forbid someone tell a military commander that she goes too far when her subordinates are so corrupt and the PC's sister is the Circle exposed to rapists and killers!  Which brings up another point:  Chantry apologists always moan about how many blood mages Hawke encounters in order to justify the RoA while excusing the constant stream of downright evil templars as being a few extremists.  Sickening.

Yup. Ser Alrik counts as a 'constant stream of downright evil templars'

[AlexXIV]

Elthina was the most powerful person in Kirkwall. Yeah she was old and a woman, but that doesn't make her the 'nice old innocent lady'. I can't believe people are that guillable to fall for it after we met Flemeth in DA:O.

Also Anders didn't remove the option of compromise. Meredith did. Anders just knew Meredith would do it if Elthina was out of the way. Orsino wanted a compromise, Hawke wanted a compromise, Cullen probably would have prefered that another 'Hero' solves the templar duty again (like in DA:O). But Meredith is just being unreasonable. And Cullen is too much of a coward to step up against Meredith earlier. That he can do it he proves later.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 17 avril 2011 - 09:07 .

[Rifneno]

Uzzy wrote...

Yup. Ser Alrik counts as a 'constant stream of downright evil templars'

Ahh, another aspect of the pro-Chantryism.  Cluelessness.  Ser Karras wants to kill all the Starkhaven survivors before knowing the whole Decimus situation.  But in case you're still not convinced he's scum, let him live and then talk to Alain during Act II.  Turns out Karras has been raping him and telling him that if he reports it he'll have him made tranquil.  And if you kill Karras, even if he attacks you for nothing more than saying you're Thrask's friend, another group of templars tries to kill you in Act II.  You can tell them it was merely self defense and Karras was unhinged... they don't care.  It's not that they don't believe you, they just don't care.  There's nothing to be done about that BTW, Karras just keeps on raping if he's not killed in Act I.  How about the quest in Act III where you have to save one unarmed woman from a dozen templars who are going to kill her for giving her cousin, who just happened to be a mage, one meal?  I suppose that was justice?

[Torax]

What is funny is how the mage lovers truly try to polarize the issues. Treat anyone who is even attempting to point out how it's not all white and black on the issue, so they are turned into evil mage haters who apparently want to kill young children for fun. But it's perfectly okay to kill a kind elderly woman and all who are near her. But how dare anyone think badly of the Circle that is ran by a BLOOD MAGE! Just sayin.

P.S. I have never sided with the Templars ever and still think you are annoying idiots that need to go outside if you truly think the Templars are all evil and the mages are not...

[Rifneno]

Torax wrote...

What is funny is how the mage lovers truly try to polarize the issues. Treat anyone who is even attempting to point out how it's not all white and black on the issue, so they are turned into evil mage haters who apparently want to kill young children for fun. But it's perfectly okay to kill a kind elderly woman and all who are near her. But how dare anyone think badly of the Circle that is ran by a BLOOD MAGE! Just sayin.

P.S. I have never sided with the Templars ever and still think you are annoying idiots that need to go outside if you truly think the Templars are all evil and the mages are not...

I like how you accuse the pro-mage players of grouping everyone together, and then do the exact same thing to them.  Almost as much as when you imply that the rest of the Circle is somehow guilty for Orsino's deeds.  Sure, why don't we just launch nukes at Iraq, because surely their last leader was bad so clearly they must all be punished.  Brilliant logic!  I'm not sure where you live that going outside is a good place to learn about mages, but I suspect you should stop eating wild mushrooms if that is the case.

[AlexXIV]

Torax wrote...

What is funny is how the mage lovers truly try to polarize the issues. Treat anyone who is even attempting to point out how it's not all white and black on the issue, so they are turned into evil mage haters who apparently want to kill young children for fun. But it's perfectly okay to kill a kind elderly woman and all who are near her. But how dare anyone think badly of the Circle that is ran by a BLOOD MAGE! Just sayin.

P.S. I have never sided with the Templars ever and still think you are annoying idiots that need to go outside if you truly think the Templars are all evil and the mages are not...

It's not about Orsino, he deserves death more than anyone. And it is not about Elthina deserving to die or not. It is about exacting vengeance on innocents for the failings of others. I would like to see your face if someone kills someone who is important to you just because someone completely different did the same to him. It is not justice to punish innocent people for something someone else did just because they maybe have the same race or religion or job or whatever.