352 réponses à ce sujet

[The Angry One]

Orsino is a blood mage, wannabe necromancer and accomplice to a serial killer.
90% of all other mages in the Circle resort to blood magic and demonology, so yes, a lot of people in the Circle are guilty. Far more than there are bad Templars.

[JabbaDaHutt30]

Torax wrote...

What is funny is how the mage lovers truly try to polarize the issues. Treat anyone who is even attempting to point out how it's not all white and black on the issue, so they are turned into evil mage haters who apparently want to kill young children for fun. But it's perfectly okay to kill a kind elderly woman and all who are near her. But how dare anyone think badly of the Circle that is ran by a BLOOD MAGE! Just sayin.

P.S. I have never sided with the Templars ever and still think you are annoying idiots that need to go outside if you truly think the Templars are all evil and the mages are not...

Surprising twist at the end for someone who seemed to take everything so seriously in the first paragraph.

[Torax]

Rifneno wrote...

Torax wrote...

What is funny is how the mage lovers truly try to polarize the issues. Treat anyone who is even attempting to point out how it's not all white and black on the issue, so they are turned into evil mage haters who apparently want to kill young children for fun. But it's perfectly okay to kill a kind elderly woman and all who are near her. But how dare anyone think badly of the Circle that is ran by a BLOOD MAGE! Just sayin.

P.S. I have never sided with the Templars ever and still think you are annoying idiots that need to go outside if you truly think the Templars are all evil and the mages are not...

I like how you accuse the pro-mage players of grouping everyone together, and then do the exact same thing to them.  Almost as much as when you imply that the rest of the Circle is somehow guilty for Orsino's deeds.  Sure, why don't we just launch nukes at Iraq, because surely their last leader was bad so clearly they must all be punished.  Brilliant logic!  I'm not sure where you live that going outside is a good place to learn about mages, but I suspect you should stop eating wild mushrooms if that is the case.

Slight problem that you will not accept is that evidence such as the First Enchanter in fact being a Blood Mage would probably force a Right of Annulment once it ever came into light. You may not like it. I don't even like the concept of the Right of Annulment. But we truly don't know the influence that Orsino had on his flock. Or how much he was truly hiding but the few templars and mages he has you hunt down. Even as you are going through the Gallows in that final battle you find more mages using blood magic with demons and Templars as their Thralls. So it's not like it's an instant thing. I bet the kind Orsino was a part of it all. That being available as outright knowledge would have probably even had Elthina asking for the Right. If the Divine knew of it then she would have sent a March on Kirkwall for sure. If the Leader of the Mages is lost to Blood Magic it can be assumed the entire Circle can't be trusted.

[AlexXIV]

The Angry One wrote...

Orsino is a blood mage, wannabe necromancer and accomplice to a serial killer.
90% of all other mages in the Circle resort to blood magic and demonology, so yes, a lot of people in the Circle are guilty. Far more than there are bad Templars.

It's always great if people come up with numbers. Give me the names and the bloodmages and of the innocents so I can at least check that your claim is true.

[nos_astra]

AlexXIV wrote...
Elthina was the most powerful person in Kirkwall. Yeah she was old and a woman, but that doesn't make her the 'nice old innocent lady'. I can't believe people are that guillable to fall for it after we met Flemeth in DA:O.

Elthina is the Grand Cleric. I expect her to believe in the Maker and act in the best interest of the Chantry and her flock. That doesn't make her evil.
Flemeth is a powerful ancient abomination whose intentions are unknown. There are rumours (some of them from Morrigan) that Flemeth might have fun killing people. I would assume that Flemeth does have evil tendencies.

AlexXIV wrote...
Also Anders didn't remove the option of compromise.

Anders says: I removed the chance of compromise, because there can be no compromise.

I'm supposed to interpret this in a way that places the blame on Meredith or Elthina (but never on Anders or Orsino)?

Modifié par klarabella, 17 avril 2011 - 09:22 .

[JabbaDaHutt30]

The Angry One wrote...

Orsino is a blood mage, wannabe necromancer and accomplice to a serial killer.
90% of all other mages in the Circle resort to blood magic and demonology, so yes, a lot of people in the Circle are guilty. Far more than there are bad Templars.

Resorting to blood magic made sense in Orsino's case.

[AlexXIV]

Torax wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

Torax wrote...

What is funny is how the mage lovers truly try to polarize the issues. Treat anyone who is even attempting to point out how it's not all white and black on the issue, so they are turned into evil mage haters who apparently want to kill young children for fun. But it's perfectly okay to kill a kind elderly woman and all who are near her. But how dare anyone think badly of the Circle that is ran by a BLOOD MAGE! Just sayin.

P.S. I have never sided with the Templars ever and still think you are annoying idiots that need to go outside if you truly think the Templars are all evil and the mages are not...

I like how you accuse the pro-mage players of grouping everyone together, and then do the exact same thing to them.  Almost as much as when you imply that the rest of the Circle is somehow guilty for Orsino's deeds.  Sure, why don't we just launch nukes at Iraq, because surely their last leader was bad so clearly they must all be punished.  Brilliant logic!  I'm not sure where you live that going outside is a good place to learn about mages, but I suspect you should stop eating wild mushrooms if that is the case.

Slight problem that you will not accept is that evidence such as the First Enchanter in fact being a Blood Mage would probably force a Right of Annulment once it ever came into light. You may not like it. I don't even like the concept of the Right of Annulment. But we truly don't know the influence that Orsino had on his flock. Or how much he was truly hiding but the few templars and mages he has you hunt down. Even as you are going through the Gallows in that final battle you find more mages using blood magic with demons and Templars as their Thralls. So it's not like it's an instant thing. I bet the kind Orsino was a part of it all. That being available as outright knowledge would have probably even had Elthina asking for the Right. If the Divine knew of it then she would have sent a March on Kirkwall for sure. If the Leader of the Mages is lost to Blood Magic it can be assumed the entire Circle can't be trusted.

That's silly. So you say it is ok to shoot people if it later turns out they are criminals. And if not? Well then they died for a good cause or what? I promise you if my Hawke would know that Orsino is a bloodmage she would side with the templars. But she doesn't know, and the reason is simple. If it was known that he is a Bloodmage there would not be a conflict. Because as a bloodmage he could not stand in the middle of the gallows and argue with Meredith. Because he would be dead before he speaks his first word.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 17 avril 2011 - 09:24 .

[Torax]

JabbaDaHutt30 wrote...

Torax wrote...

What is funny is how the mage lovers truly try to polarize the issues. Treat anyone who is even attempting to point out how it's not all white and black on the issue, so they are turned into evil mage haters who apparently want to kill young children for fun. But it's perfectly okay to kill a kind elderly woman and all who are near her. But how dare anyone think badly of the Circle that is ran by a BLOOD MAGE! Just sayin.

P.S. I have never sided with the Templars ever and still think you are annoying idiots that need to go outside if you truly think the Templars are all evil and the mages are not...

Surprising twist at the end for someone who seemed to take everything so seriously in the first paragraph.

What that I am not a Templar supporter but I hate all who try to paint the innocents of the Circle while they villify the few bad templars they see. Think of it like this. I've only seen as many bad templar characters as I've seen good mages. As in I can only count them with a few fingers.

[The Angry One]

AlexXIV wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Orsino is a blood mage, wannabe necromancer and accomplice to a serial killer.
90% of all other mages in the Circle resort to blood magic and demonology, so yes, a lot of people in the Circle are guilty. Far more than there are bad Templars.

It's always great if people come up with numbers. Give me the names and the bloodmages and of the innocents so I can at least check that your claim is true.

Proven innocent mages:
Bethany

[Uzzy]

Rifneno wrote...

Uzzy wrote...

Yup. Ser Alrik counts as a 'constant stream of downright evil templars'

Ahh, another aspect of the pro-Chantryism.  Cluelessness.  Ser Karras wants to kill all the Starkhaven survivors before knowing the whole Decimus situation.  But in case you're still not convinced he's scum, let him live and then talk to Alain during Act II.  Turns out Karras has been raping him and telling him that if he reports it he'll have him made tranquil.  And if you kill Karras, even if he attacks you for nothing more than saying you're Thrask's friend, another group of templars tries to kill you in Act II.  You can tell them it was merely self defense and Karras was unhinged... they don't care.  It's not that they don't believe you, they just don't care.  There's nothing to be done about that BTW, Karras just keeps on raping if he's not killed in Act I.  How about the quest in Act III where you have to save one unarmed woman from a dozen templars who are going to kill her for giving her cousin, who just happened to be a mage, one meal?  I suppose that was justice?

Ser Kerras raping Alain comes as a surprise to me, given I never encounted that in my game, and it's not on the Wiki. But sure, I'll give you that. So you've got two bad Templars. Two. I won't count Kerras as bad for wanting to kill all the Starkhaven survivors, as after all, they are escaped apostates with blood mages amongst their number. But if he's raping and abusing templars, my Hawke would kill him herself. Templar Internal Affairs, heh.

As for the Act III quest, which one is that? Certainly don't recall that bit in the 'On the Loose' quest. I do recall blood mages everywhere though.

But sure, there are bad eggs in the Templars. No denying that. The problem is that a bad Templar can abuse a few mages (which is horrific, don't get me wrong). A bad Mage can, willingly or unwillingly, destroy a city and kill hundreds.

[Nimrodell]

klarabella wrote...

Anders says he removed the possibility of compromise, namely Elthina. How can the avatar of inaction be a possibility of compromise?

Elthina states it herself - few times actually - when Hawke shows her the seal, even ser Alrik's papers (and if you have Aveline in party then, you'll hear her saying something very interesting on the subject), when Hawke asks her politely about the mages and her help, Elthina's inaction is motivated by hope of compromise between sides. Don't get me wrong, I'm not defending Anders' action, it is just what it is - inaction to action, meaning removing the chance of compromise, for better or worse. He is exclusive in his way of thinking 'cause he doesn't know which thoughts are his and which ones are Justices'. The best conversation that actually explains what's happening to Anders while he's loosing his battle to control Justice (and we have confirmation about that in codex entries, some tiny bits of friednship path and huge portion of it in 3rd Act of rivalry path) is with Isabela. Isabela is the only one actually that speaks the truth about double-standard morality and justice in mortal world. After reading Maker's First Children codex entry plus with knowledge from Awakening, and with Anders growing change, distruts and paranoia, it is very visible that the whole that act was inspired by spirit that actually still doesn't understand grayness of mortal world. He still abides him self by absolute he knows from the Fade. How to change that if you don't have the money and the armies and political power to execute what he deems right? Simply by moving events forward. Also, it is visible in Dissent too - Justice acts compeled by his own nature that doesn't understand well mortals - for him templars are bad, all of 'em, mages are opressed and if  a mage actually abides by Circle rules, mage is a templar.

In the 2nd Act we can still see that Anders has doubts (if one follows diplomatic pathway at the start and end of Dissent). If Hawk tells him that then the blame can be laid only on ser Alrik, Anders states - That is my hope as well. He even wants to talk to Elthina not kill her. So, nothing is that simple.

[AlexXIV]

The Angry One wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Orsino is a blood mage, wannabe necromancer and accomplice to a serial killer.
90% of all other mages in the Circle resort to blood magic and demonology, so yes, a lot of people in the Circle are guilty. Far more than there are bad Templars.

It's always great if people come up with numbers. Give me the names and the bloodmages and of the innocents so I can at least check that your claim is true.

Proven innocent mages:
Bethany

So the Circle consists of Bethany, Orsino and 8 other bloodmages?

[Ryzaki]

The Angry One wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Orsino is a blood mage, wannabe necromancer and accomplice to a serial killer.
90% of all other mages in the Circle resort to blood magic and demonology, so yes, a lot of people in the Circle are guilty. Far more than there are bad Templars.

It's always great if people come up with numbers. Give me the names and the bloodmages and of the innocents so I can at least check that your claim is true.

Proven innocent mages:
Bethany

We could put Emile there right? And Feyrneriel. And those mages you have to cut down before you leave lowtown. And those mages that run up to you in the templar ending.  

Granted it's a ****** poor amount either way. 

Alain's a bloodmage, Grace was a bloodmage, Huon was a bloodmage, Merrill's a bloodmage, Anders is an abomination, Hawke can be an bloodmage (and doesn't count because he's the PC), Orsino's a bloodmage, every mage we met either is a bloodmage, bloodmage thrall, or willing to turn abomination.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 17 avril 2011 - 09:26 .

[Torax]

Innocient mages

Bethany
Emile
Alain is not so innocent but means well.

Evil Templars
Meredith - Yay
Alrik
Kerass

Yup them mages totally so innocent. the templars should burn...

[The Angry One]

AlexXIV wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Orsino is a blood mage, wannabe necromancer and accomplice to a serial killer.
90% of all other mages in the Circle resort to blood magic and demonology, so yes, a lot of people in the Circle are guilty. Far more than there are bad Templars.

It's always great if people come up with numbers. Give me the names and the bloodmages and of the innocents so I can at least check that your claim is true.

Proven innocent mages:
Bethany

So the Circle consists of Bethany, Orsino and 8 other bloodmages?

My point is that out of all the mages we see, only Bethany remains entirely innocent.
We can throw in those 3 mages who surrender in the Templar path but that's about it. Virtually every other mage we see resorts to blood magic and demonology.
There's Decimus, Grace, Quentin, DuPuis, all the apostate blood mages throughout the acts, circle mages summoning demons and becoming abominations, on and on and on.

[The Angry One]

Ryzaki wrote...

We could put Emile there right? And Feyrneriel. And those mages you have to cut down before you leave lowtown. And those mages that run up to you in the templar ending. 

I suppose Emile too. I'm hesitant to add Feynriel as if saved he ends up going to Tevinter to apprentice to a Magister.
The fact that the kid with the power to control dreams is learning his powers from the evil empire doesn't bode well for me.

[Herr Uhl]

AlexXIV wrote...

Orsino wanted a compromise,

 Orsino's appeal to root out all blood mages in the tower seems hollow considering the Quentin situation.

Hawke wanted a compromise,

Depends on Hawke

Cullen probably would have prefered that another 'Hero' solves the templar duty again (like in DA:O).

...he was at fault in the Fereldan Circle? How?

[The Angry One]

Torax wrote...

Innocient mages

Bethany
Emile
Alain is not so innocent but means well.

Evil Templars
Meredith - Yay
Alrik
Kerass

Yup them mages totally so innocent. the templars should burn...

Well, there's also a very deranged Templar in Act 3 if you side with Meredith,  I forget his name, who wants to kill mudanes just for associating with mages.
On the other hand that same event comes with another Templar who's horrified by him, she and half the Templars she's with end up attacking him for attempting to kill civilians.

[JabbaDaHutt30]

Torax wrote...

Innocient mages

Bethany
Emile
Alain is not so innocent but means well.

Evil Templars
Meredith - Yay
Alrik
Kerass

Yup them mages totally so innocent. the templars should burn...

there's also varnell.

[Torax]

Should also point out how many deaths of Templars are really because Blood Mages used them against you. Or if the Templar is manipulated by others. Petrice's body guard was likely hating of the Qunari but driven further by her. But overall the Templars are not evil. They may not have the sympathy for the mages that players may wish them to have. But what kind of guards would they truly be if they all coddled and didn't really watch their charges? It's obvious to me at least that not all in the Kirkwall Circle are innocent just like not all were innocent in Origins. Like all the Enchanters who would have started listening to Uldred in his private teaching sessions that Irving later regrets allowing.

JabbaDaHutt30 wrote...


there's also varnell.

He doesn't count in your anti right of annulment argument. He was working with a mother against Heathens not attacking mages for fun...

Modifié par Torax, 17 avril 2011 - 09:36 .

[Uzzy]

Torax wrote...

Innocient mages

Bethany
Emile
Alain is not so innocent but means well.

Evil Templars
Meredith - Yay
Alrik
Kerass

Yup them mages totally so innocent. the templars should burn...

Meredith's insane, not evil. (I know, for me that's the worst part of the plot, but she's insane, so her actions are not her own anymore and she cannot be held responsible for them)

[AlexXIV]

The Angry One wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Orsino is a blood mage, wannabe necromancer and accomplice to a serial killer.
90% of all other mages in the Circle resort to blood magic and demonology, so yes, a lot of people in the Circle are guilty. Far more than there are bad Templars.

It's always great if people come up with numbers. Give me the names and the bloodmages and of the innocents so I can at least check that your claim is true.

Proven innocent mages:
Bethany

So the Circle consists of Bethany, Orsino and 8 other bloodmages?

My point is that out of all the mages we see, only Bethany remains entirely innocent.
We can throw in those 3 mages who surrender in the Templar path but that's about it. Virtually every other mage we see resorts to blood magic and demonology.
There's Decimus, Grace, Quentin, DuPuis, all the apostate blood mages throughout the acts, circle mages summoning demons and becoming abominations, on and on and on.

The Circle houses more than hundret mages. And we know, a dozen, or two? So if you know 10% and half of them are evil then logic dictates that 90% of the whole are evil? I bet you are the joy of every maths teacher. And that doesn't even credit the fact that Hawke mostly meets evil mages because ... surprise ... they are the ones who are starting trouble in Kirkwall in surroundings. I personally haven't visited the Circle with Hawke to get a picture of the mages who actually follow the rules and don't leave the Circle. I guess they deserve to be considered evil for being stupid enough to follow the rules of the Circle. Well Morrigan at least would agree here.

[The Angry One]

JabbaDaHutt30 wrote...

Torax wrote...

Innocient mages

Bethany
Emile
Alain is not so innocent but means well.

Evil Templars
Meredith - Yay
Alrik
Kerass

Yup them mages totally so innocent. the templars should burn...

there's also varnell.

Varnell is a fanatic, but not necesarilly rotten to the core like Alrik or Kerras.

[JabbaDaHutt30]

Herr Uhl wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Orsino wanted a compromise,

 Orsino's appeal to root out all blood mages in the tower seems hollow considering the Quentin situation.

Hawke wanted a compromise,

Depends on Hawke

Cullen probably would have prefered that another 'Hero' solves the templar duty again (like in DA:O).

...he was at fault in the Fereldan Circle? How?

he said he didn't use blood magic up until that point. He may be an affably evil guy, but at least Orsino is willing to make compromises. Meredith was never willing to begin with. Between siding with an approachable, evil person and a despotic, evil person... I'd go with Orsino.

Modifié par JabbaDaHutt30, 17 avril 2011 - 09:36 .

[JabbaDaHutt30]

The Angry One wrote...

JabbaDaHutt30 wrote...

Torax wrote...

Innocient mages

Bethany
Emile
Alain is not so innocent but means well.

Evil Templars
Meredith - Yay
Alrik
Kerass

Yup them mages totally so innocent. the templars should burn...

there's also varnell.

Varnell is a fanatic, but not necesarilly rotten to the core like Alrik or Kerras.

how more rotten can you get?