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[The Angry One]

AlexXIV wrote...

The Circle houses more than hundret mages. And we know, a dozen, or two? So if you know 10% and half of them are evil then logic dictates that 90% of the whole are evil? I bet you are the joy of every maths teacher. And that doesn't even credit the fact that Hawke mostly meets evil mages because ... surprise ... they are the ones who are starting trouble in Kirkwall in surroundings. I personally haven't visited the Circle with Hawke to get a picture of the mages who actually follow the rules and don't leave the Circle. I guess they deserve to be considered evil for being stupid enough to follow the rules of the Circle. Well Morrigan at least would agree here.

Neither do we meet all Templars, yet apparently they're to be judged by the actions of a few.

Besides which, we know the leadership of the Circle is rotten, we know people coming out of there are deranged, we know the Circle is heavily compromised.
As shown on the Templar path, the Right of Annulment does not necesarilly mean the death of EVERY SINGLE MAGE if they surrender. The only reason Meredith demands the surrendering mages die is because she's insane.

[Torax]

I should ask where the evidence is that it's hundreds of mages. Especially considering the amount of escapes that seemed to be happening over the years. I doubt it's as many as you think since there are things like Anders being shocked that 12 were made Tranquil over a long time span. If there were hundreds of Mages I doubt 12 being made Tranquil would even be noticed. It's a large assumption to how many are really there to be honest. It's as much of an assumption on ones part to think Hundreds are in Kirkwall when it didn't even appear to that many in Fereldon's tower...

[The Angry One]

JabbaDaHutt30 wrote...

how more rotten can you get?

Kerras and Alrik are corrupt and take advantage of their position.
Varnell takes his teachings literally and allowed himself to be manipulated by Petrice - he is an idiot, but he's nowhere near the level of those two, or someone like Grace.

[Benchmark]

The Angry One wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

We could put Emile there right? And Feyrneriel. And those mages you have to cut down before you leave lowtown. And those mages that run up to you in the templar ending. 

I suppose Emile too. I'm hesitant to add Feynriel as if saved he ends up going to Tevinter to apprentice to a Magister.
The fact that the kid with the power to control dreams is learning his powers from the evil empire doesn't bode well for me.

To quote a sarcastic Hawke

"You know this is coming back to bite you in the a**, right?"

I hope that kid is made of sterner stuff than 90% of the mages in Kirkwall.

[LobselVith8]

XxDeonxX wrote...

Two major problems prior to the descision for Annulment being made was

1) Orsino indeed was harboring blood mages a great many of them, and was one himself! Just like Meredith suspected and he should have let her root them out instead of protesting like an idiot.

2) Meredith Apparently sent for the annulment to Justina V before Anders actions (idk if this is true but I keep hearing it)

Harboring blood mages? We know relatively little about Orsino, except for the fact that he seems to have a penchant for making stupid decisions. Namely, his correspondence with Quentin and turning into a Harvester (because we didn't get enough of recycled enviornments or enemies in this game, apparently).

Meredith sent for the Right of Annulment, but she was also mentally unbalanced. She's not an unbiased person who is thinking rationally. Before and after the Right of Annulment, we have no idea whether Meredith or Orsino were correct about the Circle of Magi. While we have Orsino to see as a villain among the mages, we have Bethany as a counterpoint, who was teaching children and passed the Harrowing without incident.
 
I don't think siding with Meredith goes anything but kill mages for something Anders did, and Meredith specifically references the attack on the Chantry as the reason she invoked the Right. Furthermore, we had Varric mention "many survivors" in the mage ending, while the templar ending leaves no such mention (which makes sense since Gaider said mages who aren't killed are made tranquil, which I see as a fate worse than death since you strip a person of their humanity). Meredith ordered the genocide of the Circle of Magi for an act Anders did. He's an apostate, and she not only condemned men, women, and children to die for his actions, she blatantly ignores his existance afterward.

[Rifneno]

Torax wrote...

Slight problem that you will not accept is that evidence such as the First Enchanter in fact being a Blood Mage would probably force a Right of Annulment once it ever came into light.

And you base this on what?  But let's say you're right.  What's that prove, other than the fact the Chantry deserves to burn?  The fact that the leader is corrupt doesn't mean that most or even many of the common people under them are.

You may not like it. I don't even like the concept of the Right of Annulment. But we truly don't know the influence that Orsino had on his flock. Or how much he was truly hiding but the few templars and mages he has you hunt down. Even as you are going through the Gallows in that final battle you find more mages using blood magic with demons and Templars as their Thralls. So it's not like it's an instant thing.

We also find a mentally challenged dwarf standing by a pride demon he killed unarmed, unarmored, and alone.

What that I am not a Templar supporter but I hate all who try to paint the innocents of the Circle while they villify the few bad templars they see. Think of it like this. I've only seen as many bad templar characters as I've seen good mages. As in I can only count them with a few fingers.

Here's a better question:  How many good templars do we know of, as opposed to how many good mages?

The Angry One wrote...

Proven innocent mages:
Bethany

Proven innocent templars:  Thrask.  And he's working with blood mages.  LOL?

[The Angry One]

LobselVith8 wrote...
 
I don't think siding with Meredith goes anything but kill mages for something Anders did, and Meredith specifically references the attack on the Chantry as the reason she invoked the Right. Furthermore, we had Varric mention "many survivors" in the mage ending, while the templar ending leaves no such mention (which makes sense since Gaider said mages who aren't killed are made tranquil, which I see as a fate worse than death since you strip a person of their humanity).

Cullen states that the surrending mages would be watched closely for signs of blood magic.
He says this to Meredith while still under her command, why would he go back on this after Meredith proved she was a lunatic and he turned against her?

[Torax]

Lob maybe you can see my side on it at least. That we can't just state it as if it's Black and White. That there are innocent Templars and Innocent Mages. That to a point in a world where Right of Annulments exist. If it was truly known what Orsino was up to, it likely would have made the RoA allowed. That they can't sit and act like mages did nothing at all to drive even Meredith's crazy paranoia further.

[AlexXIV]

Herr Uhl wrote...

Orsino's appeal to root out all blood mages in the tower seems hollow considering the Quentin situation.

And also considering the fact that Orsino himself is a bloodmage. Just that nobody knew that in the moment the called the Right. Not to mention that Orsino is the problem, not the other mages who did nothing wrong. I don't know how First Enchanters are chosen, but in this case it was a rather bad choice.

Depends on Hawke.

Well should we really discuss a Hawke that doesn't want to resolve this peacefully and prevent the war that follows? Not saying that it's not possible that Hawke is a total jerk, but if we want to discuss whether it is the 'good' choice then we shouldn't assume that Hawke is a total jerk.

...he was at fault in the Fereldan Circle? How?.

Did I say that he was at fault? I said he would prefer if a hero like the Warden would resolve the problem like he/she did in Ferelden. Because it was basically the best thing that ever happened to the Circle and the Templars.

[The Angry One]

Rifneno wrote...

Proven innocent templars:  Thrask.  And he's working with blood mages.  LOL?

Off the top of my head..

Thrask (he was Grace's dupe, which is, you know, Grace's fault)
Ser Agatha
Cullen
Samson
Keran
Moira
Emeric

[JabbaDaHutt30]

The Angry One wrote...

JabbaDaHutt30 wrote...

how more rotten can you get?

Kerras and Alrik are corrupt and take advantage of their position.
Varnell takes his teachings literally and allowed himself to be manipulated by Petrice - he is an idiot, but he's nowhere near the level of those two, or someone like Grace.

so organizing lynch mobs, torturing and killing qunari doesn't count...?

[Torax]

JabbaDaHutt30 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

JabbaDaHutt30 wrote...

how more rotten can you get?

Kerras and Alrik are corrupt and take advantage of their position.
Varnell takes his teachings literally and allowed himself to be manipulated by Petrice - he is an idiot, but he's nowhere near the level of those two, or someone like Grace.

so organizing lynch mobs, torturing and killing qunari doesn't count...?

It doesn't count for your little "Right of Annulment" argument no...

Modifié par Torax, 17 avril 2011 - 09:49 .

[The Angry One]

JabbaDaHutt30 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

JabbaDaHutt30 wrote...

how more rotten can you get?

Kerras and Alrik are corrupt and take advantage of their position.
Varnell takes his teachings literally and allowed himself to be manipulated by Petrice - he is an idiot, but he's nowhere near the level of those two, or someone like Grace.

so organizing lynch mobs, torturing and killing qunari doesn't count...?

I could argue it's not really murder to kill a robot with no free will...
But seriously, it appears bad. But you know what? The Qunari are in a de facto state of war with the rest of Thedas by their own admission. Thedas just believes in a treaty so much that the Qunari can bide their time and prepare.
So really, ambushing and attacking the enemy is not the same as victimising innocents, no matter the crude methods used.
That said, he is still a moron. He's simply not on the same level as others.

[Benchmark]

Rifneno wrote...

Benchmark wrote...

She wasn't. Pro- Anders agruments have to demonize Elthina so that they can agree to murdering a kind senior woman.

This would be funny if it weren't so ludicrous.  The only "good" Elthina does is refuse the RoA when Meredith asks, which is basically the same as refusing to give a box of grenades to a deranged mental patient.  You'll have to forgive me if I don't build statues in her honor.  You claim she was protecting mages from Meredith?  Bull****.  If Hawke voices the opinion that Meredith goes too far, then later on during the Justice quest Elthina accuses Hawke of "fanning the flames of rebellion."  Oh heaven forbid someone tell a military commander that she goes too far when her subordinates are so corrupt and the PC's sister is the Circle exposed to rapists and killers!  Which brings up another point:  Chantry apologists always moan about how many blood mages Hawke encounters in order to justify the RoA while excusing the constant stream of downright evil templars as being a few extremists.  Sickening.

Wow. Just wow.

Grandma chides you for getting into a public argument with the Military leader in Kirkwall, someone she probably has similar arguments with in private and once told to calm down and be a "good girl". Yeah, that makes her the Evil Emperor.

The woman was sweet and honest in every scene you spoke with her. Even the scene you reference showed her sadness at the situation and her hope that it would be resolved peacefully once everyone calmed down.

But hey. Call her whatever names you want to make yourself feel better for supporting her murder. And next play through talk to all the chantry sisters that died and listen to them talk about feeding homeless children. Find a way to make them evil so you can feel good about that too.

[The Angry One]

Benchmark wrote...

But hey. Call her whatever names you want to make yourself feel better for supporting her murder. And next play through talk to all the chantry sisters that died and listen to them talk about feeding homeless children. Find a way to make them evil so you can feel good about that too.

Not to mention that they say the homeless children are often IN THE CHANTRY.
Another victory for Anders: Orphan Murderer!

[AlexXIV]

The Angry One wrote...

JabbaDaHutt30 wrote...

how more rotten can you get?

Kerras and Alrik are corrupt and take advantage of their position.
Varnell takes his teachings literally and allowed himself to be manipulated by Petrice - he is an idiot, but he's nowhere near the level of those two, or someone like Grace.

According to David Gaider the RoA demands that every mage is killed or tranqulized. If Cullen and Hawke don't act on it they are actually breaking the rules. That's why a RoA should only be invoked if the Circle is really beyond hope. And even the Circle of Ferelden which tightly was in the hands of demons could be saved. Yes, the fact that Orsino is a bloodmage makes it hard to think that he could actually have survived without being exposed as bloodmage. I also find it kind of ridiculous that templars know no way to find out about bloodmages in their circle when they constantly have an eye on all mages and mages are not even allowed to leave the Circle. So where did they learn bloodmagic?

When templars took it upon them to be guardians of the circle they probably should have armed themselves with the means to do that. As in, being able to keep mages in check without killing them all. I mean it is not the mage's responsibility to keep their fellow mages from breaking circle rules. That's what the templars are there for and they fail until things go out of control. And of course we don't blame the tempalrs, because it wasn't them who failed at their job, we blame the mages because they are dangerous. With this logic you cannot have circles at all. Just kill every mage as soon as you find out they are mages. That would be when they are still children. Should be easier then as well.

I mean what do we care if they are children, they are not even people. We don't care that calfs are young either, or do we?

[Ryzaki]

Alright I have to somewhat agree on the Elthina thing. she didn't deserve to die but the woman wasn't doing her job. That's pathetic. She was a pathetic excuse for a Grand Cleric and should've been replaced. Her job isn't merely to sing the maker's praises. She was the only one who could keep Meredith in check and failed to do it. She knew Chantry law was being broken and sat on her ass.

She should've been fired. Not killed.

[KnightofPhoenix]

People who keep citing criminal mages should remember that those maniacs have all left the circle. They are apostates. They are not necessarily representative of the mages who are still in the Circle.

If Meredith wants to annul the Circle because she can't do her job properly, then sure. But I see no necessity to it. What was necessary is the removal Meredith. Her incompetence is a very important reason why this is all going to hell.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 17 avril 2011 - 10:04 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Ryzaki wrote...

Alright I have to somewhat agree on the Elthina thing. she didn't deserve to die but the woman wasn't doing her job. That's pathetic. She was a pathetic excuse for a Grand Cleric and should've been replaced. Her job isn't merely to sing the maker's praises. She was the only one who could keep Meredith in check and failed to do it. She knew Chantry law was being broken and sat on her ass.

She should've been fired. Not killed.

I think it's the Chantry and the Divine who should be blamed directly, not Elthina. She does not command Seekers, the Divine does. Why didn't she do something about Meredith who is clearly incompetent in almost every way?

[AlexXIV]

Ryzaki wrote...

Alright I have to somewhat agree on the Elthina thing. she didn't deserve to die but the woman wasn't doing her job. That's pathetic. She was a pathetic excuse for a Grand Cleric and should've been replaced. Her job isn't merely to sing the maker's praises. She was the only one who could keep Meredith in check and failed to do it. She knew Chantry law was being broken and sat on her ass.

She should've been fired. Not killed.

She just could have asked Hawke for help. Like for example in the 3 years after the Qunari uprise where Hawke did nothing. But no, nothing happens in that time. Just when the sh!t hits the fan it is suddenly Hawke's duty to restore order. Because he/she is the 'Champion'.

[Rifneno]

The Angry One wrote...

Not to mention that they say the homeless children are often IN THE CHANTRY.
Another victory for Anders: Orphan Murderer!

"Who are they going to complain to?  Their parents?" - Mr. Burns

[The Angry One]

Sure, you can argue the Right of Annulment at that time was extreme, especially since Meredith did it because she was coocoo for coco puffs, but it wasn't altogether unjustified either.
The Circle WAS corrupt, there WERE blood mages and abominations all over Kirkwall. Should there have been a better solution? Sure.

Unfortunately we don't have much when we can either side with the insane extremists or the blood mage sociopaths.

[AlexXIV]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Alright I have to somewhat agree on the Elthina thing. she didn't deserve to die but the woman wasn't doing her job. That's pathetic. She was a pathetic excuse for a Grand Cleric and should've been replaced. Her job isn't merely to sing the maker's praises. She was the only one who could keep Meredith in check and failed to do it. She knew Chantry law was being broken and sat on her ass.

She should've been fired. Not killed.

I think it's the Chantry and the Divine who should be blamed directly, not Elthina. She does not command Seekers, the Divine does. Why didn't she do something about Meredith who is clearly incompetent in almost every way?

Actually my Hawke told Leliana that Kirkwall needs help. But it took her 6 years to return to Kirkwall with Cassandra. That was a tad bit late.

[LobselVith8]

The Angry One wrote...

Proven innocent mages:
Bethany

Bethany isn't the only mage in Dragon Age 2 who isn't an antagonist. Idunna and Gascard DuPuis can both be reformed because of Hawke. Off the top of my head and besides the nameless mages we encounter who don't use blood magic, we have:

Merrill
Alain (who is as innocent as Ser Thrask is)
Karl
Terrie
Tobrius
Ella
Emile de Launcet
Magus Tavarin Hall

The Angry One wrote...

Sure, you can argue the Right of Annulment at that time was extreme, especially since Meredith did it because she was coocoo for coco puffs, but it wasn't altogether unjustified either.
The Circle WAS corrupt, there WERE blood mages and abominations all over Kirkwall. Should there have been a better solution? Sure.

We have no information about the mages inside the Gallows when we mostly encounter mages outside of the Gallows. We have no proof in regards to the Circle of Magi being corrupt or not. We're free to speculate about who might be right, but that's honestly all it is.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 17 avril 2011 - 10:11 .

[AlexXIV]

The Angry One wrote...

Sure, you can argue the Right of Annulment at that time was extreme, especially since Meredith did it because she was coocoo for coco puffs, but it wasn't altogether unjustified either.
The Circle WAS corrupt, there WERE blood mages and abominations all over Kirkwall. Should there have been a better solution? Sure.

Unfortunately we don't have much when we can either side with the insane extremists or the blood mage sociopaths.

I'd have to admit that the fact that the templars win anyway and Orsino and all bloodmages die anyway makes it easier to side with the mages. That way Hawke isn't killing innocents and still all bloodmages die.