352 réponses à ce sujet

[Ryzaki]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
I think it's the Chantry and the Divine who should be blamed directly, not Elthina. She does not command Seekers, the Divine does. Why didn't she do something about Meredith who is clearly incompetent in almost every way?

Elthina was the one there. She could've easily appealed to the Divine. She was the one who saw Alrik's letter, who should've opened her eyes and noticed tranquiled mages who shouldn't have been tranquil. I have little doubt she heard rumors but she failed to try to do anything about them.

The Divine probably didn't see Meredith as much as an issue because she had bigger things on her plate. By the time she starts focusing on Meredith everything else is already a trainwreck and it's too late for just Meredith's removal to fix things.

Elthina is part of the reason it got so far to begin with. (Just like with Peatrice. Instead of trying to reign Peatrice in she lets her do whatever. And even worse when the Qunari kills Peatrice she turns her back instead of trying to uphold the law she claimed would deal with Peatrice.) The woman stands for nothing and is quick to wipe her hands clean of anything that puts her in anything other than neutrality.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 17 avril 2011 - 10:10 .

[LobselVith8]

Rifneno wrote...

Benchmark wrote...

She wasn't. Pro- Anders agruments have to demonize Elthina so that they can agree to murdering a kind senior woman.

This would be funny if it weren't so ludicrous.  The only "good" Elthina does is refuse the RoA when Meredith asks, which is basically the same as refusing to give a box of grenades to a deranged mental patient.  You'll have to forgive me if I don't build statues in her honor.  You claim she was protecting mages from Meredith?  Bull****.  If Hawke voices the opinion that Meredith goes too far, then later on during the Justice quest Elthina accuses Hawke of "fanning the flames of rebellion."  Oh heaven forbid someone tell a military commander that she goes too far when her subordinates are so corrupt and the PC's sister is the Circle exposed to rapists and killers!  Which brings up another point:  Chantry apologists always moan about how many blood mages Hawke encounters in order to justify the RoA while excusing the constant stream of downright evil templars as being a few extremists.  Sickening.

Grand Cleric Elthina has authority and does nothing with it.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 17 avril 2011 - 10:12 .

[Torax]

LobselVith8 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Sure, you can argue the Right of Annulment at that time was extreme, especially since Meredith did it because she was coocoo for coco puffs, but it wasn't altogether unjustified either.
The Circle WAS corrupt, there WERE blood mages and abominations all over Kirkwall. Should there have been a better solution? Sure.

We have no information about the mages inside the Gallows when we mostly encounter mages outside of the Gallows. We have no proof in regards to the Circle of Magi being corrupt or not. We're free to speculate about who might be right, but that's honestly all it is.

At the same time we can't paint them all as innocent inside the circle. It is possible that a majority of the Enchanters were showing mages Blood Magic or thralling people to their will. Just as it's possible they are all innocent. Just the "all" part is far less likely. It's trying to apply an absolute to an unknown.

Modifié par Torax, 17 avril 2011 - 10:12 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

LobselVith8 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Proven innocent mages:
Bethany

Bethany isn't the only mage in Dragon Age 2 who isn't an antagonist. Idunna and Gascard DuPuis can both be reformed because of Hawke. Off the top of my head and besides the nameless mages we encounter who don't use blood magic, we have:

Merrill
Alain (who is as innocent as Ser Thrask is)
Karl
Terrie
Tobrius
Ella
Emile de Launcet
Magus Tavarin Hall

You know Karl is innocent of insubordination how?
You know how Terrie is innocent of using blood magic how (she is certainly not innocent of insubordination)?
Ella isn't innocent of insubordination, she tries to escape the tower.
Neither is Emile de Launcet. Also a runaway.
And how the hell can you claim Tavarin is innocent? He is just a vendor, we know nothing about him. He may just aswell be a nefarious Blood Mage using his magic to sell his wares.
And Merrill is not innocent at all, both apostate and blood mage.

So the only "innocent" mages on that list, seems to be Alain and Tobrius. Short list.

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 17 avril 2011 - 10:15 .

[Addai]

Rifneno wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
Anders or rather Justice doesn't care about mages.  He is singularly focused on an idea and doesn't care how many people he mows over in the process.  Whatever else he or she is, Hawke is not possessed.

Speculation and semantics.

In your second conversation with Anders, he says he had better stop or else he will take Hawke's head off.  My Hawke was a mage.  So there's Justice's "concern for mages."  Likewise in the quest where you confront Alrik, Justice wants to kill the mage girl because she's in proximity to templars.  He doesn't give a **** about mages.

[KnightofPhoenix]

The Angry One wrote...
The Circle WAS corrupt, there WERE blood mages and abominations all over Kirkwall. Should there have been a better solution? Sure.

Those blood mages and abominations were outside the circle. The mages who were  killed by the Templars in the cutscenes, barring their idiocy, were not corrupt. 

Now Orsino as it turns out was. But I attribute much of this to Meredith being an idiot and doing what Gregoir did not: ignore the First Enchanter. Gregoir understood that the Templars have to collaborate with mages to a large extent. Him and Irving were almost friends (skirt friends). Meredith probably treated Orsino with disdain and disrespect, and only showed some sadness before she decides to kill all mages. Of course he was going to do something stupid like....prove her right. 

Unfortunately we don't have much when we can either side with the insane extremists or the blood mage sociopaths.

Indeed. For me, it's nto a question of black, white, grey or blue. But rather a myriad of incompetence and idiocy, starting off with Hawke.

[LobselVith8]

Torax wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

We have no information about the mages inside the Gallows when we mostly encounter mages outside of the Gallows. We have no proof in regards to the Circle of Magi being corrupt or not. We're free to speculate about who might be right, but that's honestly all it is.

At the same time we can't paint them all as innocent inside the circle. It is possible that a majority of the Enchanters were showing mages Blood Magic or thralling people to their will. Just as it's possible they are all innocent. Just the "all" part is far less likely. It's trying to apply an absolute to an unknown.

The mages of the Circle of Magi were innocent of Anders' actions. He destroyed the Chantry and killed Grand Cleric Elthina.

[Herr Uhl]

AlexXIV wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

Orsino's appeal to root out all blood mages in the tower seems hollow considering the Quentin situation.

And also considering the fact that Orsino himself is a bloodmage. Just that nobody knew that in the moment the called the Right. Not to mention that Orsino is the problem, not the other mages who did nothing wrong. I don't know how First Enchanters are chosen, but in this case it was a rather bad choice.

They're chosen by the senior enchanters in the Circle. And yes, it was a horrendous choice.

[Torax]

Should point out for the "Outside the Circle" crowds. Orsino has you look for a meeting where members of the Circle were SNEAKING OUT to have a meeting with Templars. Those mages turned out to be blood mages. Just something you may want to remember.

Modifié par Torax, 17 avril 2011 - 10:15 .

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

You know Karl is innocent of insubordination how?
You know how Terrie is innocent of using blood magic how (she is certainly not innocent of insubordination)?
Ella isn't innocent of insubordination, she tries to escape the tower.
Neither is Emile de Launcet. Also a runaway.
And how the hell can you claim Tavarin is innocent? He is just a vendor, we know nothing about him. He may just aswell be a nefarious Blood Mage using his magic to sell his wares.
And Merrill is not innocent at all, both apostate and blood mage.

So the only "innocent" mage on that list, seems to be Alain. Short list.

Karl is a Harrowed mage. He can't legally be made tranquil unless he submits to the Rite.
Terrie never uses blood magic in front of Hawke. You're providing assumptions as facts.
Ella went to see her mother and never uses forbidden magic to harm anyone.
Emile de Launcet tried to have sex, let's not try to paint him as some criminal mastermind.
Tavarin is a mage and a vendor.
Merrill is Dalish. She's not under Chantry law.

In other words, it's as subjective as the list Angry provided about the templars, and what you're saying is that we have no evidence anyone on any side is innocent of anything?

Modifié par LobselVith8, 17 avril 2011 - 10:19 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Ryzaki wrote...
Elthina is part of the reason it got so far to begin with. (Just like with Peatrice. Instead of trying to reign Peatrice in she lets her do whatever. And even worse when the Qunari kills Peatrice she turns her back instead of trying to uphold the law she claimed would deal with Peatrice.) The woman stands for nothing and is quick to wipe her hands clean of anything that puts her in anything other than neutrality.

It's true, I am not disputing that.

She, like everyone else, is incompetent. But I'd place more blame on the Chantry as a whole. Before the game even began, the fact that Meredith assumed de facto political power should have attracted the Chantry's attention immediately.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Torax wrote...

Should point out for the "Outside the Circle" crowds. Orsino has you look for a meeting where members of the Circle were SNEAKING OUT to have a meeting with Templars. Those mages turned out to be blood mages. Just something you may want to remember.

And you kill them all.
How do you know that there are more inside?

[AlexXIV]

Addai67 wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
Anders or rather Justice doesn't care about mages.  He is singularly focused on an idea and doesn't care how many people he mows over in the process.  Whatever else he or she is, Hawke is not possessed.

Speculation and semantics.

In your second conversation with Anders, he says he had better stop or else he will take Hawke's head off.  My Hawke was a mage.  So there's Justice's "concern for mages."  Likewise in the quest where you confront Alrik, Justice wants to kill the mage girl because she's in proximity to templars.  He doesn't give a **** about mages.

Well he cares for the freedom and justice for mages. Not the single mage as such. That's why he dislikes mages who support the chantry and templars. Because for him they are part of the problem. That's not to excuse his actions or his words, but to explain why he acts like that.

[EmperorSahlertz]

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

You know Karl is innocent of insubordination how?
You know how Terrie is innocent of using blood magic how (she is certainly not innocent of insubordination)?
Ella isn't innocent of insubordination, she tries to escape the tower.
Neither is Emile de Launcet. Also a runaway.
And how the hell can you claim Tavarin is innocent? He is just a vendor, we know nothing about him. He may just aswell be a nefarious Blood Mage using his magic to sell his wares.
And Merrill is not innocent at all, both apostate and blood mage.

So the only "innocent" mage on that list, seems to be Alain. Short list.

In other words, it's as subjective as the list Angry provided about the templars, and what you're saying is that we have no evidence anyone on any side is innocent of anything?

Who claims the Templars are innocent? I'm just tired of listening to people claim that the mages are innocent, when we can't be sure of that at all.

[Torax]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Torax wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

We have no information about the mages inside the Gallows when we mostly encounter mages outside of the Gallows. We have no proof in regards to the Circle of Magi being corrupt or not. We're free to speculate about who might be right, but that's honestly all it is.

At the same time we can't paint them all as innocent inside the circle. It is possible that a majority of the Enchanters were showing mages Blood Magic or thralling people to their will. Just as it's possible they are all innocent. Just the "all" part is far less likely. It's trying to apply an absolute to an unknown.

The mages of the Circle of Magi were innocent of Anders' actions. He destroyed the Chantry and killed Grand Cleric Elthina.

But are they completely innocent of Blood Magic. The main reason the crazy old lady wanted to Annul the Circle? You can't claim that part to be completely innocent. Mages who have left the circle seemed to know it full well. Mages from within the Circle of Kirkwall that were conspiring with Templars to overthrow Meredith were turning out to be Blood Mages. It's one thing to argue that yes they didn't kill Elthina. It's a completely different thing to claim they weren't harboring and even possibly training other mages to be blood mages and how to summon demons.

[The Angry One]

LobselVith8 wrote...

In other words, it's as subjective as the list Angry provided about the templars, and what you're saying is that we have no evidence anyone on any side is innocent of anything?

My list is of people who have proven they're not bad through their actions.
Some are sympathetic to mages, others are shown to do their duty and not be corrupt.

[AlexXIV]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

You know Karl is innocent of insubordination how?
You know how Terrie is innocent of using blood magic how (she is certainly not innocent of insubordination)?
Ella isn't innocent of insubordination, she tries to escape the tower.
Neither is Emile de Launcet. Also a runaway.
And how the hell can you claim Tavarin is innocent? He is just a vendor, we know nothing about him. He may just aswell be a nefarious Blood Mage using his magic to sell his wares.
And Merrill is not innocent at all, both apostate and blood mage.

So the only "innocent" mage on that list, seems to be Alain. Short list.

In other words, it's as subjective as the list Angry provided about the templars, and what you're saying is that we have no evidence anyone on any side is innocent of anything?

Who claims the Templars are innocent? I'm just tired of listening to people claim that the mages are innocent, when we can't be sure of that at all.

Well if we can't be sure then they are innocent until we are sure. There is a reason why we imprison people who broke the law and not because we are not sure if they broke the law. There may have been innocents, that's enough to know.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 17 avril 2011 - 10:20 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
 I'm just tired of listening to people claim that the mages are innocent, when we can't be sure of that at all.

That's the problem. Meredith is not even bothering to be sure. Heck, she even said that she knew they had nothing to do with it, but resorted to the ****** poor excuse of people being angry to justify her massacre.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 17 avril 2011 - 10:20 .

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Who claims the Templars are innocent? I'm just tired of listening to people claim that the mages are innocent, when we can't be sure of that at all.

You don't even bother reading what I'm responding to, do you? You just disagree with what I say, almost by default.

The Angry One wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

In other words, it's as subjective as the list Angry provided about the templars, and what you're saying is that we have no evidence anyone on any side is innocent of anything?

My list is of people who have proven they're not bad through their actions.
Some are sympathetic to mages, others are shown to do their duty and not be corrupt.

The same can be said of the mages I listed. Their actions show they aren't the same as the mage antagonists who Hawke faces.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 17 avril 2011 - 10:23 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Torax wrote...
But are they completely innocent of Blood Magic. The main reason the crazy old lady wanted to Annul the Circle? You can't claim that part to be completely innocent. Mages who have left the circle seemed to know it full well. Mages from within the Circle of Kirkwall that were conspiring with Templars to overthrow Meredith were turning out to be Blood Mages. It's one thing to argue that yes they didn't kill Elthina. It's a completely different thing to claim they weren't harboring and even possibly training other mages to be blood mages and how to summon demons.

And why were they doing all this in the first place?

Because Meredith is incompetent and thinks that a heavy hand fixes everything. If Orsino didn't remind her, the hag was going to storm the Qunari without any consideration to the hostages.

I can understand Meredith trying to fix her mistakes, but let's be clear that that what's happening. Meredith's incompetence was a key reason why this all went to hell.

[Addai]

AlexXIV wrote...

Well he cares for the freedom and justice for mages. Not the single mage as such. That's why he dislikes mages who support the chantry and templars. Because for him they are part of the problem. That's not to excuse his actions or his words, but to explain why he acts like that.

The spirit is delusional.  He has no grasp of the real world, as we know from Awakening, so he thinks by blowing things up he'll make a better world.  What that is or how it looks he has no idea and doesn't care.  He just wants his revolution.

So like I said upthread and which is the whole point, it's no contradiction to kill Anders and then annul the Circle.  You're trying to contain a wildfire.  Sometimes it takes a controlled burn to do it.

For the record I'm not a "mage hater" and usually play mages.  In my canon game, I defended the Circle, though I reject La Revolucion.  It's just ludicrous and insulting for people to demonize players for making a game choice that does in fact have in-game, non-crazy justification.

[EmperorSahlertz]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
 I'm just tired of listening to people claim that the mages are innocent, when we can't be sure of that at all.

That's the problem. Meredith is not even bothering to be sure. Heck, she even said that she knew they had nothing to do with it, but resorted to the ****** poor excuse of people being angry to justify her massacre.

She has more reasons than that. The plot to overthrow her, and the denial of her investigation, the mages assiting eachother escape. It all adds up. Meredith knows that there are innocent mages in the Circle, she also knows that she has no way of singling them out and sparing them. What else was she to do? Let the city rise up in a riot and march on the Gallows themselves? The rioters would be massacered. What she did saved the most people, by the end of the day.

[Torax]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Torax wrote...
But are they completely innocent of Blood Magic. The main reason the crazy old lady wanted to Annul the Circle? You can't claim that part to be completely innocent. Mages who have left the circle seemed to know it full well. Mages from within the Circle of Kirkwall that were conspiring with Templars to overthrow Meredith were turning out to be Blood Mages. It's one thing to argue that yes they didn't kill Elthina. It's a completely different thing to claim they weren't harboring and even possibly training other mages to be blood mages and how to summon demons.

And why were they doing all this in the first place?

Because Meredith is incompetent and thinks that a heavy hand fixes everything. If Orsino didn't remind her, the hag was going to storm the Qunari without any consideration to the hostages.

I can understand Meredith trying to fix her mistakes, but let's be clear that that what's happening. Meredith's incompetence was a key reason why this all went to hell.

So, they are still not innocent of basically breaking the Cardinal Rule for a mage within the Circle. You don't do Blood Magic or you die. With all the Blood Mages coming out of the Circle there. The amount of times it seemed that Templars were being warped/thralled to do a mage's biding. Add in the Resolutionists coming into town that probably heped speed the Blood Magic lessons about. Even if Meredith was trying to root out blood mages from the Circle it's made clear that Orsino refused to help her. He even tries to say she is looking for things that are not there. Which is a complete lie as you learn later whether you side with Orsino or not. Everything she seemed to fear did infact exist inside the Circle of Kirkwall and the First Enchanter was likely conspiring to make it so...

[The Angry One]

LobselVith8 wrote...

The same can be said of the mages I listed. Their actions show they aren't the same as the mage antagonists who Hawke faces.

Aside from Alain, you list the others merely because of their inaction. Like the Magus guy. He's just a vendor, he never does anything so we don't know one way or the other.
And then, Alain is still a blood mage and still followed Grace. If Kerras was his rapist then you can't even use that as a justification as he does the same thing whether Kerras is alive or dead.

[Rifneno]

The Angry One wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

The same can be said of the mages I listed. Their actions show they aren't the same as the mage antagonists who Hawke faces.

Aside from Alain, you list the others merely because of their inaction. Like the Magus guy. He's just a vendor, he never does anything so we don't know one way or the other.
And then, Alain is still a blood mage and still followed Grace. If Kerras was his rapist then you can't even use that as a justification as he does the same thing whether Kerras is alive or dead.

He still gets raped, just not by Karras.  Take the diplomatic dialogue choice with him in Best Served Cold.