352 réponses à ce sujet

[AlexXIV]

Addai67 wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Well he cares for the freedom and justice for mages. Not the single mage as such. That's why he dislikes mages who support the chantry and templars. Because for him they are part of the problem. That's not to excuse his actions or his words, but to explain why he acts like that.

The spirit is delusional.  He has no grasp of the real world, as we know from Awakening, so he thinks by blowing things up he'll make a better world.  What that is or how it looks he has no idea and doesn't care.  He just wants his revolution.

So like I said upthread and which is the whole point, it's no contradiction to kill Anders and then annul the Circle.  You're trying to contain a wildfire.  Sometimes it takes a controlled burn to do it.

For the record I'm not a "mage hater" and usually play mages.  In my canon game, I defended the Circle, though I reject La Revolucion.  It's just ludicrous and insulting for people to demonize players for making a game choice that does in fact have in-game, non-crazy justification.

We can only assume what such a spirit of justice would think if it came to our world and would see all the injustice. Maybe it would conclude that humanity does not deserve to go on because of what it has done to this planet and it's beings. Justice is a difficult concept to grasp in a world as complex and chaotic as ours. I personally let him live because I wanted to see what he thinks later when the world is about to get sucked into the abyss or something because of his desire of 'justice'. I always prefer to let people live to see the wrongs they have caused. Reason why I let Loghain live too. He was all wrong and he should live to see how wrong.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 17 avril 2011 - 10:30 .

[hawkmoondirge]

Not sure if this has been mentioned but why does blood mage=evil monster? Hawke and the warden has the capacity to be heroic characters while possessing blood magic. Jowan only wanted freedom for love. And before mention of his poisoning of Eamon, that was under Loghain, who was a hero at the time.

Also Grace and the like only want freedom, Merril only desires her people's advances and her blood magic has proven beneficial. The tevinter Imperium has proven to be a powerful force built on blood magic and is evil due to slavery, which as history displays corrupts a person. Hell,so far only the weak willed mages are a problem.

[LobselVith8]

The Angry One wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

The same can be said of the mages I listed. Their actions show they aren't the same as the mage antagonists who Hawke faces.

Aside from Alain, you list the others merely because of their inaction. Like the Magus guy. He's just a vendor, he never does anything so we don't know one way or the other.
And then, Alain is still a blood mage and still followed Grace. If Kerras was his rapist then you can't even use that as a justification as he does the same thing whether Kerras is alive or dead.

I don't list them because of their inaction, I list them because they're mages who aren't the same as the mage antagonists who Hawke faces. Magnus may be a vendor, but he isn't using blood magic to kill people like Huon was. The other mages simply wanted to live.

And I find it odd that you single out Alain when Thrask followed Grace, too, and you still referenced him in your post.

[KnightofPhoenix]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
She has more reasons than that. The plot to overthrow her, and the denial of her investigation, the mages assiting eachother escape. It all adds up. Meredith knows that there are innocent mages in the Circle, she also knows that she has no way of singling them out and sparing them. What else was she to do? Let the city rise up in a riot and march on the Gallows themselves? The rioters would be massacered. What she did saved the most people, by the end of the day.

And her heavy and rather clumsy hand on mages before all added up as well. Let's not forget that. A lot of this is her own doing.

I think Wrex would have this to say to Meredith:
"Don't ****** in my ear and tell me it's raining".

What she could have done? Seal the mages in the Gallows, execute Anders publically, and try her best to avoid bloodshed by insiting that the Circle is innocent of the crime. Under such pressure, Orsino woul have little choice bu to allow the investigations (he allows it t the end, but Meredith doens't care anymore) Then remove herself from politics and from command as she clearly does not understand how to do it.

[AlexXIV]

hawkmoondirge wrote...

Not sure if this has been mentioned but why does blood mage=evil monster? Hawke and the warden has the capacity to be heroic characters while possessing blood magic. Jowan only wanted freedom for love. And before mention of his poisoning of Eamon, that was under Loghain, who was a hero at the time.

Also Grace and the like only want freedom, Merril only desires her people's advances and her blood magic has proven beneficial. The tevinter Imperium has proven to be a powerful force built on blood magic and is evil due to slavery, which as history displays corrupts a person. Hell,so far only the weak willed mages are a problem.

Well mages are basically born as thermal detonators. Bloodmagic makes them 10 times more dangeous.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 17 avril 2011 - 10:34 .

[hawkmoondirge]

How? Only the weak willed are a true threat. The harrowing exists for a reason. It fuffils all purposes of the circle. The harrowingproves they are above the threat of becomming an abomination willingly, so why bother having the templars once teh harrowing is complete? The system is flawed at it's very core. And merideth being bonkers didn't help anyone.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Torax wrote...
With all the Blood Mages coming out of the Circle there.

We have no indication how many are in there and what percentage. You killed the main ones already.

Add in the Resolutionists coming into town that probably heped speed the Blood Magic lessons about.

If she  and her templars are that incompetent, then maybe she should consider wiping out some Templars first. 

Even if Meredith was trying to root out blood mages from the Circle it's made clear that Orsino refused to help her.

And why did he? Because she thinks she can order around, while a KC is supposed to collaborate with a First Enchanter. Her idiocy is to blame as much as Orsino's

Everything she seemed to fear did infact exist inside the Circle of Kirkwall and the First Enchanter was likely conspiring to make it so...

A self-fullfilling prophecy for the most part.
Like Sister Petrice.


I personally do not really care who is innocent or not. Practically no one is innocent.
But if I had to indentify one major root cause for all of this, it would be Meredith.

If she wants to annul the Circle, she also better resign because she clearly failed to do her job properly.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 17 avril 2011 - 10:36 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

No doubt the entire situation leading up to that fateful moment could have been handled better. But what's done is done. In that moment she had little choice but to handle the bloodshed the people would want. That way the casualties would only be amongst the mages and Templars, instead of including a lot (more) civillians.

[Joy Divison]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

No doubt the entire situation leading up to that fateful moment could have been handled better. But what's done is done. In that moment she had little choice but to handle the bloodshed the people would want. That way the casualties would only be amongst the mages and Templars, instead of including a lot (more) civillians.

Problem is she never deigned to find out if that was true because she believes herself 100% correct.

[KnightofPhoenix]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

No doubt the entire situation leading up to that fateful moment could have been handled better. But what's done is done. In that moment she had little choice but to handle the bloodshed the people would want. That way the casualties would only be amongst the mages and Templars, instead of including a lot (more) civillians.

The Templars are supposed to protect people from mages, and mages from people.
It's not her job to sate popular bloodlust, but because she is playing at politics (very badly I might add), she thinks she has to do it.

The Gallows is an island fortress. She could have sealed herself and the mages in, and execute Anders publically.  I doubt the people would want to besiege the gallows and slay Templars to get to mages. If they do become that enraged, then she might be justified. But she didn't even try otherwise.

[AlexXIV]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

No doubt the entire situation leading up to that fateful moment could have been handled better. But what's done is done. In that moment she had little choice but to handle the bloodshed the people would want. That way the casualties would only be amongst the mages and Templars, instead of including a lot (more) civillians.

Well that's one of the better reasons I heard for the Annullment. Still kinda doubt Meredith's interest for civilians. I think she is one of the biggest liars of the whole game, maybe only even to Orsino. I mean she bought the lyrium idol and used it despite the fact that she knew what it did to Bartrant. If she was born a mage she'd probably be the worst bloodmage/demon summoner the world has seen. She can't even resist to use ancient evil magic if she is not a mage, and on top of that a templar ...

Modifié par AlexXIV, 17 avril 2011 - 10:42 .

[Wulfram]

It's really not fair to say we don't see any innocent mages if you're going to make it a requirement of innocence that they all stay in the tower and thus don't see them.

Though the mages who got killed during the Qunari attack are presumably innocent. At least they died and didn't resort to blood magic, which is about as good evidence as you can get.

[EmperorSahlertz]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

No doubt the entire situation leading up to that fateful moment could have been handled better. But what's done is done. In that moment she had little choice but to handle the bloodshed the people would want. That way the casualties would only be amongst the mages and Templars, instead of including a lot (more) civillians.

The Templars are supposed to protect people from mages, and mages from people.
It's not her job to sate popular bloodlust, but because she is playing at politics (very badly I might add), she thinks she has to do it.

The Gallows is an island fortress. She could have sealed herself and the mages in, and execute Anders publically.  I doubt the people would want to besiege the gallows and slay Templars to get to mages. If they do become that enraged, then she might be justified. But she didn't even try otherwise.

If she had tried otherwise and failed what then? An entire city could have been exterminated, all becasue she would have tried to play diplomat. What she did fulfilled her most important duty. To protect the commoners. In this case from their own bloodlust.

[Torax]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

No doubt the entire situation leading up to that fateful moment could have been handled better. But what's done is done. In that moment she had little choice but to handle the bloodshed the people would want. That way the casualties would only be amongst the mages and Templars, instead of including a lot (more) civillians.

The Templars are supposed to protect people from mages, and mages from people.
It's not her job to sate popular bloodlust, but because she is playing at politics (very badly I might add), she thinks she has to do it.

The Gallows is an island fortress. She could have sealed herself and the mages in, and execute Anders publically.  I doubt the people would want to besiege the gallows and slay Templars to get to mages. If they do become that enraged, then she might be justified. But she didn't even try otherwise.

It's not as sealed as you think. While there is water and enough depth for the boats to travel. There is underground tunnels that lead from the Gallows to Darktown and possible even out to the coast. So it's not like shutting the doors magically stops mages from escaping. We should know by act 2 that is has never been true to be completely sealed.

[Sherbet Lemon]

hawkmoondirge wrote...

How? Only the weak willed are a true threat. The harrowing exists for a reason. It fuffils all purposes of the circle. The harrowingproves they are above the threat of becomming an abomination willingly, so why bother having the templars once teh harrowing is complete? The system is flawed at it's very core. And merideth being bonkers didn't help anyone.

Except for the fact that I'm pretty certain that the mages in Uldred's group were a combination of harrowed mages and apprentices.  Yes, Meredith is bonkers, but just because a person passes their Harrowing doesn't mean their immune or resistant to possession.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Wulfram wrote...

It's really not fair to say we don't see any innocent mages if you're going to make it a requirement of innocence that they all stay in the tower and thus don't see them.

And how is it not fair?
How is it fair then to say most mages are not innocent when you don't even go inside the gallows?

Hawke's experience  does not qualify him / her to make an objective and informed assessement on this. The most he / she can have is a feeling or impression. But that's it.

[hawkmoondirge]

Village Idiot wrote...

hawkmoondirge wrote...

How? Only the weak willed are a true threat. The harrowing exists for a reason. It fuffils all purposes of the circle. The harrowingproves they are above the threat of becomming an abomination willingly, so why bother having the templars once teh harrowing is complete? The system is flawed at it's very core. And merideth being bonkers didn't help anyone.

Except for the fact that I'm pretty certain that the mages in Uldred's group were a combination of harrowed mages and apprentices.  Yes, Meredith is bonkers, but just because a person passes their Harrowing doesn't mean their immune or resistant to possession.

Counterpoint, Uldred sought out blood mages and made a pact with demons, which most of the aprentices did. Most of them just wanted freedom. Noticing a pattern between blood mages and want of freedom.

[AlexXIV]

Wulfram wrote...

It's really not fair to say we don't see any innocent mages if you're going to make it a requirement of innocence that they all stay in the tower and thus don't see them.

Though the mages who got killed during the Qunari attack are presumably innocent. At least they died and didn't resort to blood magic, which is about as good evidence as you can get.

There is another thing that I keep thinking about. Seeing a mage using bloodmagic and summoning demons could be a bloodmage. Or a mage under control of a bloodmage. Or a recently possessed mage like in the Circle tower of ferelden. You can't just count bloodmages or demons and say they are all mages who turned to bloodmagic. Simply because that's not the only plausible explaination. Anyway of those who don't use bloodmagic you also can't be sure either. They may just be smart, like the 3 mages who give up in the templar ending. I mean what if they were bloodmages who didn't feel like dying with the rest?

Modifié par AlexXIV, 17 avril 2011 - 10:48 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
If she had tried otherwise and failed what then? An entire city could have been exterminated, all becasue she would have tried to play diplomat. What she did fulfilled her most important duty. To protect the commoners. In this case from their own bloodlust.

No, because if she failed to resolve it diplomatically, then she can kill all mages, who would have been all sealed up (and not like what was in the game, with several outside).

It's her job to protect commoners from mages, period. Anything else is not in her jurisdiction, but she htinks she owns the city. If mages were making an open attempt to kill civilians, then she can act.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Torax wrote...
It's not as sealed as you think. While there is water and enough depth for the boats to travel. There is underground tunnels that lead from the Gallows to Darktown and possible even out to the coast. So it's not like shutting the doors magically stops mages from escaping. We should know by act 2 that is has never been true to be completely sealed.

So she can't even realize that and close off tunnels?

Tunnels are a pain in the ass when it involves large borders and rough terrain. But in a tower? She is not even trying.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 17 avril 2011 - 10:50 .

[Benchmark]

Rifneno wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Not to mention that they say the homeless children are often IN THE CHANTRY.
Another victory for Anders: Orphan Murderer!

"Who are they going to complain to?  Their parents?" - Mr. Burns

Holy cr** that's funny.
I am playing Act 3 right now and killing mages must make my humor a bit macabre.... but that is funny!

[AlexXIV]

hawkmoondirge wrote...

Village Idiot wrote...

hawkmoondirge wrote...

How? Only the weak willed are a true threat. The harrowing exists for a reason. It fuffils all purposes of the circle. The harrowingproves they are above the threat of becomming an abomination willingly, so why bother having the templars once teh harrowing is complete? The system is flawed at it's very core. And merideth being bonkers didn't help anyone.

Except for the fact that I'm pretty certain that the mages in Uldred's group were a combination of harrowed mages and apprentices.  Yes, Meredith is bonkers, but just because a person passes their Harrowing doesn't mean their immune or resistant to possession.

Counterpoint, Uldred sought out blood mages and made a pact with demons, which most of the aprentices did. Most of them just wanted freedom. Noticing a pattern between blood mages and want of freedom.

In the circle of ferelden they had not much reason to resort to bloodmagic because of freedom. You can't have mages wandering the world as if they are common people. Jowan obviously learned bloodmagic because he was thinking he was too slow. Then he was going to be made tranquil, then he wanted to run. That's rather a point against mage freedom tbh.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 17 avril 2011 - 10:55 .

[AlexXIV]

Benchmark wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Not to mention that they say the homeless children are often IN THE CHANTRY.
Another victory for Anders: Orphan Murderer!

"Who are they going to complain to?  Their parents?" - Mr. Burns

Holy cr** that's funny.
I am playing Act 3 right now and killing mages must make my humor a bit macabre.... but that is funny!

Things like that make you look like a troll. 'I kill mages and it is fun'. Wonder what you are trying to prove by posting that in a thread like this.

[Benchmark]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Torax wrote...
It's not as sealed as you think. While there is water and enough depth for the boats to travel. There is underground tunnels that lead from the Gallows to Darktown and possible even out to the coast. So it's not like shutting the doors magically stops mages from escaping. We should know by act 2 that is has never been true to be completely sealed.

So she can't even realize that and close off tunnels?

Tunnels are a pain in the ass when it involves large borders and rough terrain. But in a tower? She is not even trying.

She's not. No mages stay in the tower except Bethany. Orsino knows mages are sneaking out, and he is an idiot. It would have been so much better if you found evidence to say that Mereidth was helping and instigating the Mage's escapes to give herself more evidence for an RoA. Now that would have been a tense discussion to have with her and Cullen just before she goes Sith lord.

[Benchmark]

AlexXIV wrote...

Benchmark wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Not to mention that they say the homeless children are often IN THE CHANTRY.
Another victory for Anders: Orphan Murderer!

"Who are they going to complain to?  Their parents?" - Mr. Burns

Holy cr** that's funny.
I am playing Act 3 right now and killing mages must make my humor a bit macabre.... but that is funny!

Things like that make you look like a troll. 'I kill mages and it is fun'. Wonder what you are trying to prove by posting that in a thread like this.

Someone posts a really disturbing yet funny post about who orphans would cry to and I can't find it funny???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

You win. I hope your blood magic can control my mind moar.