200 réponses à ce sujet

[brownybrown]

Yes, i expect the new lead designer of da3 to gently criticize da2 in order to win back fans.
Im interested in thinking about Bioware and how much they have taken the sales/criticisms of da2 to heart. if da3 brings back with elf/dwarf starting options (and off course differing origin stories) and a much longer development cycle that will be a big DA2 mea cupla by Bioware.

[Cataca]

brownybrown wrote...

Yes, i expect the new lead designer of da3 to gently criticize da2 in order to win back fans.
Im interested in thinking about Bioware and how much they have taken the sales/criticisms of da2 to heart. if da3 brings back with elf/dwarf starting options (and off course differing origin stories) and a much longer development cycle that will be a big DA2 mea cupla by Bioware.

They cant and wont. After such an overwhelmingly positive(ish) flood of reviews and generally favourable press response to dragon age 2 that would do much more than just stain biowares name. The only issue right now are the metriatic user reviews and vocal critical responses on the social medias. Something that can and will be ignored, as long as the press will also stay quiet.

The issue with word of mouth is, that its still not very public to the unintersted eye, but if somehow a whole system that they put their faith in "falls apart" thats a whole different story. As-is you can still put it off as the very vocal disliking minority.

[Duchess of Dumb Fries]

brownybrown wrote...
elf/dwarf starting options (and off course differing origin stories)

I can't see any way they can do that. Surely they wouldn't go back to a voiceless PC, and they shot themselves in the foot by giving elfs and dwarves American/Canadian accents, otherwise I don't think people would mind having the same voice for all races but of course I shouldn't really call it shooting themselves since there's no way they could have foreseen this way back then.

Modifié par Duchess of Dumb Fries, 18 avril 2011 - 03:01 .

[Miashi]

It depends what audience they want to target with their next game. I think that if they want to regain the Baldur's Gate spiritual successor audience, they might use a critical approach. If their audience is more of the casual/COD player, they will continue to praise DA:2.

[Cataca]

Miashi wrote...

It depends what audience they want to target with their next game. I think that if they want to regain the Baldur's Gate spiritual successor audience, they might use a critical approach. If their audience is more of the casual/COD player, they will continue to praise DA:2.

Getting fans back can also be archieved by just making "a better game". I actually heave not heard "i will not buy the new DA3 no matter how good it is if Bioware doesnt state that its sorry for what it did." Nor do i think that the main crowd of complainers will join in.

On the other hand, an open letter to the customers where they say sorry for the faults the game has, will seriously impair the game review sites as not beeing objective. It wouldnt be much of an issue if the game ratings ranged from 6-7, but there is a litteral flood of 8,5-10 scores from the top brass game review sites.

And, those sites are particulary strict about bugs and obvious design flaws such as reused maps, just look at how many games they nuked down for that very reason. Ignoring the subjective things that come up in user critics often, at least the bugs would have been enough to get it at least a point lower than it is.

Dont get me wrong, im not bashing DA2, imho, it was utter trash, but trying to be objective, many things i dont like about it are probably the fault of my personal taste. But all those glitches and the map issue? Noone can tell me that the review sites just conviniently overlooked them.

tldr: They wont apologize, as they will lose more than they gain from it.

[nopho]

Cataca wrote...

brownybrown wrote...

Yes, i expect the new lead designer of da3 to gently criticize da2 in order to win back fans.
Im interested in thinking about Bioware and how much they have taken the sales/criticisms of da2 to heart. if da3 brings back with elf/dwarf starting options (and off course differing origin stories) and a much longer development cycle that will be a big DA2 mea cupla by Bioware.

They cant and wont. After such an overwhelmingly positive(ish) flood of reviews and generally favourable press response to dragon age 2 that would do much more than just stain biowares name. The only issue right now are the metriatic user reviews and vocal critical responses on the social medias. Something that can and will be ignored, as long as the press will also stay quiet.

The issue with word of mouth is, that its still not very public to the unintersted eye, but if somehow a whole system that they put their faith in "falls apart" thats a whole different story. As-is you can still put it off as the very vocal disliking minority.

so (assuming the "haters", vg-charts, free ME2 and pricedrops in onlinehsops are right) you think that bioware would rather run laughing into the (financial) chainsaw then..doh...do something? just assuming that what most "haters" think is right and bioware made DA2 for a quick cash-in then they obviously care for the money, you think they now stop start careing because they do not want to be proven wrong?


oh and btw. just most of the reviews by professionals prior to the release where overwhelming positive....you know, the oney wich have to kiss publishers butts to get early copies.

[Cataca]

brownybrown wrote...
so (assuming the "haters", vg-charts, free ME2 and pricedrops in onlinehsops are right) you think that bioware would rather run laughing into the (financial) chainsaw then..doh...do something? just assuming that what most "haters" think is right and bioware made DA2 for a quick cash-in then they obviously care for the money, you think they now stop start careing because they do not want to be proven wrong?


oh and btw. just most of the reviews by professionals prior to the release where overwhelming positive....you know, the oney wich have to kiss publishers butts to get early copies.

Its not about "being proven wrong" its about saving face, not only for bioware, but for the media as well. Actually making a good sequel would do the same, plus not smear mud on the game reviewers that they depend on for sales.

For that matter, did you even bother to read my post? And where the hell have i used the word haters? For that matter, where the heck have i defended DA2 in your oppinion....

Modifié par Cataca, 18 avril 2011 - 04:01 .

[Miashi]

Cataca wrote...
Getting fans back can also be archieved by just making "a better game". I actually heave not heard "i will not buy the new DA3 no matter how good it is if Bioware doesnt state that its sorry for what it did." Nor do i think that the main crowd of complainers will join in.

I don't remember seeing that myself either. However, Neverwinter Nights 2 OC had a very bad reception, and albeit Mask of the Betrayer a significantly improved sequel, that I would class up there in my fave RPGs, a lot of people didn't give it a chance, as unfair as it is.

[ChickenDownUnder]

Was under the impression that most of NWN2 complaints had to do with the way it ended, which was "fixed" by Mask of the Betrayer.

[Rockpopple]

Anyone who doesn't think a particularly bad word-of-mouth campaign will not only kill a game, but a series, is naive, imo. Especially in this day-and-age where money talks, and the internet is forever.

I doubt we'll be seeing a Dragon Age III in the future, if BioWare knows what's good for them.

[Seena]

Rockpopple wrote...

Anyone who doesn't think a particularly bad word-of-mouth campaign will not only kill a game, but a series, is naive, imo. Especially in this day-and-age where money talks, and the internet is forever.

I doubt we'll be seeing a Dragon Age III in the future, if BioWare knows what's good for them.

You're joking right?

"If Bioware knows what's good for them"????

Since this implies that you are stating YOU know what is good for them - and that is ludicrous.

Modifié par Seena, 18 avril 2011 - 04:27 .

[nopho]

easilyenraged wrote...

brownybrown wrote...
so (assuming the "haters", vg-charts, free ME2 and pricedrops in onlinehsops are right) you think that bioware would rather run laughing into the (financial) chainsaw then..doh...do something? just assuming that what most "haters" think is right and bioware made DA2 for a quick cash-in then they obviously care for the money, you think they now stop start careing because they do not want to be proven wrong?


oh and btw. just most of the reviews by professionals prior to the release where overwhelming positive....you know, the oney wich have to kiss publishers butts to get early copies.

Its not about "being proven wrong" its about saving face, not only for bioware, but for the media as well. Actually making a good sequel would do the same, plus not smear mud on the game reviewers that they depend on for sales.

For that matter, did you even bother to read my post? And where the hell have i used the word haters? For that matter, where the heck have i defended DA2 in your oppinion....

wild guess but i think bioware cares for bioware and not the media, and there is other people then . and a good sequel would not have the same effect. a good sequel is what is needed to safe the franchise, either make it rpg'ish for the DA:O fans or make it god-of-war-ish for the CoD crowd.
if they do not adress the shortcomming of the game, the ones due to short production time and the ones wich either one of the crowds they are going to adress DA3 on didn't like they will lose money.
i am a gaming nerd, i will buy a game when it is good but many others just buy games on an lesser extend. plus even with me, i'll buy any given bioware game after it had some pricedrops. so even with nerds there can money be safed on that occasion.

yes i read you post, and "haters" was used by me because i wanted to use them in my argumentation, not because i thought you wrote about them. i also never said that you defend DA2, if you think that every comment on your posts is a comment against you then you should maybe take a little timeout from onlineforum

p.s. the feeling that everything told refers to one self (in a negative way) is a sign of paranoia

[nopho]

ChickenDownUnder wrote...

Was under the impression that most of NWN2 complaints had to do with the way it ended, which was "fixed" by Mask of the Betrayer.

did you know that NwN2 has an ending where you get in league with the shadow king and would kill all your former friends?

loved that one, reading that i started a new game just for that.

[Duchess of Dumb Fries]

Maybe they might do an "enhanced edition" that turns it into what it would've been given more time. But has Bioware even acknowledged that the had time constraints?

[Miashi]

ChickenDownUnder wrote...

Was under the impression that most of NWN2 complaints had to do with the way it ended, which was "fixed" by Mask of the Betrayer.

Which is pretty similar to DA:O - DA:2 when you think about it. Thing is, though, as surprising as it may be, there wasn't much change between NWN and NWN2 while DA and DA:2 are different on way more aspects. NWN2 still got a lot of flak for it. And word of mouth did hurt quite a bit because of that.

[Rockpopple]

Seena wrote...

Rockpopple wrote...

Anyone who doesn't think a particularly bad word-of-mouth campaign will not only kill a game, but a series, is naive, imo. Especially in this day-and-age where money talks, and the internet is forever.

I doubt we'll be seeing a Dragon Age III in the future, if BioWare knows what's good for them.

You're joking right?

"If Bioware knows what's good for them"????

Since this implies that you are stating YOU know what is good for them - and that is ludicrous.

A poor choice of words, then. I don't know what's good for them. I don't sit in on their board meetings. I don't get their internal reports and telemetry. But if sales dropped like a stone from Origins, and the fan reaction was mostly negative and highly pervasive, I don't see why they'd make a new sequel after that. I wouldn't be surprised if they decided to cut their losses and move on.

Modifié par Rockpopple, 18 avril 2011 - 04:34 .

[ChickenDownUnder]

nopho wrote...

ChickenDownUnder wrote...

Was under the impression that most of NWN2 complaints had to do with the way it ended, which was "fixed" by Mask of the Betrayer.

did you know that NwN2 has an ending where you get in league with the shadow king and would kill all your former friends?

loved that one, reading that i started a new game just for that.

Well yes. Have fond memories of my scythe-wielding evil bard. NWN2 was one of the few games that being the bad guy was actually rewarding, with the goody-two-shoe PCs being the ones that got screwed in the end. 

"You have killed the main baddie. Now rocks fall and you all die. Thanks for playing!"

[Cataca]

Miashi wrote...

Cataca wrote...
Getting fans back can also be archieved by just making "a better game". I actually heave not heard "i will not buy the new DA3 no matter how good it is if Bioware doesnt state that its sorry for what it did." Nor do i think that the main crowd of complainers will join in.

I don't remember seeing that myself either. However, Neverwinter Nights 2 OC had a very bad reception, and albeit Mask of the Betrayer a significantly improved sequel, that I would class up there in my fave RPGs, a lot of people didn't give it a chance, as unfair as it is.

Im sorry, i didnt want to imply that you did. I was just stating that any excuse they wrote would also have a harming sideeffect, to the point of not beeing worth it. In whatever way they decide to carry on with DA line, im allmost certain that there will be no excuse coming. Look at how they handle the interviews now, any forthcoming words towards angry customers would be a 180° turn, compared to what they put forth now.

Stating things like "they cant put up with the change, we only wanted to evolve the genre" through the flower is what they will most likely keep saying as well as downplaying the negative reception. Plus, look at what sites the devs do interviews with, they certainly dont choose people that ask tricky questions.

[Miashi]

Cataca wrote...
Stating things like "they cant put up with the change, we only wanted to evolve the genre" through the flower is what they will most likely keep saying as well as downplaying the negative reception. Plus, look at what sites the devs do interviews with, they certainly dont choose people that ask tricky questions.

True. What I find difficult when I read these interviews, is that on occasions, the bioware interviewee will say things like : "well, *I liked* this feature". Saying things like this is usually very risqué, typically used when you utimately don't give a **** about your audience. Somehow I doubt Dragon Age : 2 is that kind of artwork that's made just for the enjoyement of the artist, and too bad if people don't like it.

But yeah. I'm not really sure if Mike Laidlaw is inexperienced with doing interviews, or just damn cocky. Sometimes I'm thinking he's just contributing to making word of mouth worse.

[ChickenDownUnder]

Miashi wrote...

ChickenDownUnder wrote...

Was under the impression that most of NWN2 complaints had to do with the way it ended, which was "fixed" by Mask of the Betrayer.

Which is pretty similar to DA:O - DA:2 when you think about it. Thing is, though, as surprising as it may be, there wasn't much change between NWN and NWN2 while DA and DA:2 are different on way more aspects. NWN2 still got a lot of flak for it. And word of mouth did hurt quite a bit because of that.

Hrm. Can't bring myself to agree that there wasn't much change between NWN and NWN2. The first game was very quest driven with some puzzles thrown in, companions were not really noteworthy and served more as cannon-fodder in fights. This is of course excluding expansion pack characters like Deekin and Valen.

While in NWN2 it was much more party-based and focused more on the characters, with those characters having a certain amount of influence over the plot. Things changed depending on a certain evil ranger, clues that were found about village slaughter, and how certain npcs were treated.

But yes, I do see the similarities between that and the DA:O - DA2, just not the same way.

[nopho]

ChickenDownUnder wrote...

nopho wrote...

ChickenDownUnder wrote...

Was under the impression that most of NWN2 complaints had to do with the way it ended, which was "fixed" by Mask of the Betrayer.

did you know that NwN2 has an ending where you get in league with the shadow king and would kill all your former friends?

loved that one, reading that i started a new game just for that.

Well yes. Have fond memories of my scythe-wielding evil bard. NWN2 was one of the few games that being the bad guy was actually rewarding, with the goody-two-shoe PCs being the ones that got screwed in the end. 

"You have killed the main baddie. Now rocks fall and you all die. Thanks for playing!"

hm..i never read out that i am dead, i always (untiil MotB) just assumed i got out in time.
i anyways don't know why people here talk bad about NwN2 where i loved it. makes me think about how i do not like DA2 but others seem


on the other hand i had the "wrong" kind of nerdfriends. never played NwN1 or baldurs gate, guess thats another example how missing word to mouth can cripple sales.

[Miashi]

Miashi wrote...
Hrm. Can't bring myself to agree that there wasn't much change between NWN and NWN2. The first game was very quest driven with some puzzles thrown in, companions were not really noteworthy and served more as cannon-fodder in fights. This is of course excluding expansion pack characters like Deekin and Valen.

I guess I should've said: there were more core changes from DA:O to DA:2 than NWN to NWN2. But I acknowledge there was still some changes between the 2 neverwinters.

[ChickenDownUnder]

nopho wrote...

ChickenDownUnder wrote...

nopho wrote...

ChickenDownUnder wrote...

Was under the impression that most of NWN2 complaints had to do with the way it ended, which was "fixed" by Mask of the Betrayer.

did you know that NwN2 has an ending where you get in league with the shadow king and would kill all your former friends?

loved that one, reading that i started a new game just for that.

Well yes. Have fond memories of my scythe-wielding evil bard. NWN2 was one of the few games that being the bad guy was actually rewarding, with the goody-two-shoe PCs being the ones that got screwed in the end. 

"You have killed the main baddie. Now rocks fall and you all die. Thanks for playing!"

hm..i never read out that i am dead, i always (untiil MotB) just assumed i got out in time.
i anyways don't know why people here talk bad about NwN2 where i loved it. makes me think about how i do not like DA2 but others seem


on the other hand i had the "wrong" kind of nerdfriends. never played NwN1 or baldurs gate, guess thats another example how missing word to mouth can cripple sales.

The ends says something along the lines of after much digging in the rubble they come across your cloak, everyone moarns the loss of your character complete with funeral, though your father is the only one that thinks you might still be out there. Well, depending on if you tried to build up a relationship with him and didn't kill him. Something like that; it's been awhile. Plz forgive me for any errors.

And if you like or hate a game, then all the more power to you. Different people have different opinions on what is good or bad, it doesn't invalidate your own tastes. I, for example, found stuff to like about FF13 and Nier, which I hear is a 'stoned to death' offense in these parts.

Still, word of mouth is still a mighty beast that does not like being ignored. The backlash DA2 received pretty much proves it.

[Davasar]

Persephone wrote...

Miashi wrote...

Persephone wrote...
And as someone who is working in Sales and Marketing: Such a prognosis.....five weeks after the release? That's not how this works, much as you may want it to.

And if DA:2 is not going to make a significant impression in its first few weeks, it will do no better later on. DA:O had positive review momentum, on top of holiday season and a lot of people got DA:O gifted for Christmas. There's nothing DA:2 can look forward to that could help them.

Er, actually not true at all.

Don't tell me how the field I work in works, please. :innocent:

False appeal to authority.

Her claim is based off trends and sales figures coupled with negative reviews and other reinforcing facts.

You are claiming to 'know' simply because you are studying it.

Additionally, even if DA2 does somehow manage to get a decent amount of sales, those figured will be tainted because of:

A)  The game has been hugely reduced in price early on due to it not selling, and
  Bioware had to throw a free game included with a DA2 purchase just to get some of the units moving.


It's great that you are studying such things, but that doesn't mean you will be right when facts and sales bear out that you are actually not correct.