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[Sacred_Fantasy]

Roxlimn wrote...

Sacred_Fantasy:

And what are the choice for Hawke again?
Side A and go exile. Side B and go exile. Don't side and go exile.

Warden,
Choose DR kill Archdemon and live
Don't choose DR, kill Archdemon and die.

See the difference?

Yes. There is a difference. You're not playing the same DA2 that I am.

When you side with the Templar, they er... ...give you an administrative position. You DON'T go into exile. By the time Varric and Cassandra are talking, Hawke is no longer in his administrative position, but that's not because he was exiled, or because he went into exile.

You mentioned earlier there're different endings. Would you mind pointing to me the youtube link? 

[Roxlimn]

This is the full Templar ending. Aside from the different end-dialogues and convos, the epilogue is also altered to take the choice into account. I assume you already know the Mage ending.

[mdugger12]

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...

mdugger12 wrote...

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...

Roxlimn wrote...
In your case, I was pointing out that once it became possible for the Warden to save himself, his choice was no longer to live and let the Archdemon rampage, or die protecting Ferelden. His choice was to either stand for his morals and die, or stand for another set of morals and live.

And what are the choice for Hawke again?
Side A and go exile. Side B and go exile. Don't side and go exile.

Warden,
Choose DR kill Archdemon and live
Don't choose DR, kill Archdemon and die.

See the difference?

The only difference is how you're wording your statement. All I really see is

DA:O Kill archdemon
DA:2 Go into exile

Since you're oversimplifying whats your point?

I'm not oversimplifying with end result like killing archdemon vs going into exile. I'm referring to choices. Choose Side A/B vs choose DR or not and the implication of such choices.

Understood. Well I don't see it that way. I felt like the way I played the entire game leading up to the end of DA 2 was a choice. If I wanted to I could have been the strong arm of the Templars or the bastion of all Mages. I could have been an all around good guy or a jerk. In DA:O I was just a warden doing my job.

Now I'm not going to be obtuse to prove a point, obviously there was more to the DA:O experience then that. But choice doesn't always have to manifest itself in a way you decide as acceptable.

[Sacred_Fantasy]

Roxlimn wrote...



This is the full Templar ending. Aside from the different end-dialogues and convos, the epilogue is also altered to take the choice into account. I assume you already know the Mage ending.

Thank you. This is very informative. I couldn't choose Templar due to my morale compass with the mages and Anders.
I study the video.

[AkiKishi]

The problem is you know how things end before the game even starts. In any good framed narrative reality catches up at some point in the game. This is true of FFX, Alpha Protocol, Killzone3 etc. You may start with a dramatic moment that has already happened, but it does not give away the end.

[Roxlimn]

I knew how DAO would start and end before I even installed the game.  It is not necessary for a framed narrative to continue on to a different perspective to be good.

Modifié par Roxlimn, 18 avril 2011 - 08:33 .

[Boiny Bunny]

Roxlimn wrote...

I knew how DAO would start and end before I even installed the game.

I fail to see how your comment there is relevant at all.

Forgive me if I'm misinterpreting something here, but what we are talking about now, is the structure of storytelling which goes like:

* Show the ending
* Spend the rest of the story explaining how we got to the ending
* Repeat/rehash the ending with an extra 30 seconds on the end

This is the structure of storytelling that DA2 uses.  If you'd like to point out some pros or cons of this method, or explain why you do/don't like it, go ahead.

Your comparison to Origins adds nothing to the discussion however, as Origins does not use this method of storytelling, and you are not intended to know its ending until it occurs.  Whether or not you made an educated guess and were correct is irrelevant. 

We are not debating how well Origins obscured its ending from the outset.  We are debating how well DA2's overall plot comes across, given it deliberately shows you the ending right off the bat.

Modifié par Boiny Bunny, 18 avril 2011 - 09:19 .

[AkiKishi]

Roxlimn wrote...

I knew how DAO would start and end before I even installed the game.  It is not necessary for a framed narrative to continue on to a different perspective to be good.

You guessed ? 

That may be your opinion but framed narratives that are memorable don't tell the whole story. Like the twist at the end of Usual Suspects.

Giving away the ending is like holding up a big sign saying "Nothing you do here matters anyway".

[Boiny Bunny]

Boiny Bunny wrote...

Roxlimn wrote...

Exactly. Why not? What are they looking for? Do they want to play a year of paper work minigames to simulate Hawke new administrative position? A hunting game to simulate his exiled status? A cut scene? Is that what it needs? A cut scene?

 Your post made me laugh (in a good way).  Though I don't presume to speak for everybody who was dissatistifed with the impact that Hawke's choices had on the ending, I believe that one of the main problems was that it was a single line of text, describing something relatively unimportant, in comparison to the Mage Chantry war.

I'm a little busy at the moment, but I'll get back to you later with an example.

Right, sorry it took me awhile to get back to you on that.  So, lets lay this out. 

If you choose to side with the Templars, Hawke gets a 'special' job for a short time, then disappears. 

If you side with the mages, Hawke disappears. 

Same end result.

Either way, both the final bosses go mad, you have to kill them both.  Same result.

Either way, the exact same conflict arises, and results for Thedas ensue.  Either way, all of Hawke's companions leave him/her (except X).

Now, to be absolutely precise, lets break it down into two components, story effect, and gameplay effect.

The gameplay effect of choosing a side is minimal to zero.  You fight almost identical enemies from the moment the conflict starts, fight through the exact same dungeon, fight the same bosses.

Story effect.  The entire story effect can be summarised in a single line in the epilogue, namely:

"Here at home, the city all but got down on its hands and knees and begged the Champion to rule"

versus

"We vanished into the hills"

That's it.

Now, compare this to the impact of choosing Bhelin or Harrowmont:

(This is taken from the Dragon Age Wiki, and is more or less exactly what is written in either epilogue)

http://dragonage.wik...ilogue_(Origins)



[*]If Harrowmont becomes king and the Anvil is destroyed, he quickly finds himself in a protracted battle against Bhelen's rebellion that leaves him unable to gain the stability he needed. The clan lords object to many of his measures in the Assembly, and only his efforts to increase the dwarves' isolation from the surface met with any success. In time, Harrowmont's health begins to fail. Some claim it was poison, while others say it is a flagging spirit. Either way, after a protracted illness, the king finally passes away. The wrangling in the Assembly for a successor begins almost immediately.


[*]If Harrowmont is made the new king and the Anvil is saved, he quickly puts down Bhelen's rebellion and then passes a series of laws to please the clan lords. Unfortunately, that isolates the dwarves even further from the surface. Caste restrictions and the rights of the nobles both grow, and trade with the human lands is all but cut off. After a law excluding the casteless from common areas of the city is passed, a rebellion sees the slums reduced practically to rubble. Although outrage is widespread, the Assembly remains united behind King Harrowmont.


[*]If The Warden destroyed the Anvil of the Void, a group of Dwarves will try to recreate it from the remains. The first golem they create is animated by a spirit taken from the Fade. It goes berserk, killing many, and further research is banned. Interest in reopening Caridin's research never wanes, however.


[*]Siding with Harrowmont and recovering the Anvil of the Void will also lead to a decline after initial success. Harrowmont will discourage trade with the surface, leading to further isolation. In addition, after Harrowmont refuses Branka more volunteers for the Anvil, she will begin raiding the surface world for the needed ingredients. Eventually the surface world will retaliate, resulting in a short war with Ferelden. Orzammar's gates are besieged, and are sealed off, isolating Orzammar more than ever.

• Note:This also happens even if the Dwarf Warden requests human military aid from Queen Anora or King Alistair in battling darkspawn in the deep roads.

[*]Siding with Bhelen regardless of Anvil status will cause him to quickly prove himself a reformer. Trade with the surface lands increases and caste restrictions are loosened. The casteless are permitted to take arms against the darkspawn in exchange for new freedoms. For the first time in generations, the line in the Deep Roads is pushed back, and a few thaigs are reclaimed. Bhelen's reforms quickly finds him enemies within the warrior and noble castes, however, and after several assassination attempts, the Assembly is dissolved. The king then rules alone--some say as a tyrant, others say as a visionary determined to drag Orzammar into the modern world.


[*]Siding with Bhelen and preserving the Anvil leads to it not being long before Branka masters Caridin's technique, learning how to use the Anvil of the Void to create new golems--the first in many centuries. The dwarven people greet this news with cheers, though few know of the cost. At first, King Bhelen works eagerly with Branka to provide subjects--willing or not--so that the golems can push the darkspawn back. This arrangement is not to last, however. Before long, Branka begins to refuse to create golems only for the king, who soon bans use of the Anvil. His men attack Branka's fortress in the Deep Roads, forcing her to shut it tight. Years into the siege, Bhelen is forced to relent. The fortress, guarded by Branka's golems, remains impenetrable.

Huge impact, multiple factors feed into it, and it is nicely fleshed out (far more than 1 throwaway bit of dialogue) no matter which option you decide on.  Also makes a nice point that siding with the 'good' or 'moral' character doesn't necessarily lead to good results.  Neither does siding with the 'immoral' one.  Dragon Age 2 tries to do this, but just doesn't pull it off anywhere near as well as the Bhelin/Harrowmont conclusion.


Now, if you actually go to the link, you'll see that there are probably more than 10 pages of possible impacts of choices.  Every choice that is explained in the epilogue is given a great amount of detail, and turns out to be significant.

Another (shorter) example, helping the dwarven chantry start up can almost lead to an Exaulted March!






[*]If The Warden helped Brother Burkel near the Tapster's and convinced the Shaper to grant him the right to preach his sermons to others, Brother Burkel's new chantry in Orzammar draws a surprising number of converts among the dwarves. They quickly attract a great deal of anger from more conservative quarters, and before long the Assembly severely restricts the Andrastians' rights. Brother Burkel resists, and is slain while being arrested during a peaceful demonstration in the Commons. The Assembly claims this was an accident, but news of the resulting riots reach the Chantry on the surface, where the Divine even contemplates a new Exalted March.

Modifié par Boiny Bunny, 18 avril 2011 - 09:39 .

[mdugger12]

Boiny Bunny wrote...

Right, sorry it took me awhile to get back to you on that.  So, lets lay this out. 

If you choose to side with the Templars, Hawke gets a 'special' job for a short time, then disappears. 

If you side with the mages, Hawke disappears. 

Same end result.

Either way, both the final bosses go mad, you have to kill them both.  Same result.

Either way, the exact same conflict arises, and results for Thedas ensue.  Either way, all of Hawke's companions leave him/her (except X).

Now, to be absolutely precise, lets break it down into two components, story effect, and gameplay effect.

The gameplay effect of choosing a side is minimal to zero.  You fight almost identical enemies from the moment the conflict starts, fight through the exact same dungeon, fight the same bosses.

Story effect.  The entire story effect can be summarised in a single line in the epilogue, namely:

"Here at home, the city all but got down on its hands and knees and begged the Champion to rule"

versus

"We vanished into the hills"

That's it.

Now, compare this to the impact of choosing Bhelin or Harrowmont:

(This is taken from the Dragon Age Wiki, and is more or less exactly what is written in either epilogue)

http://dragonage.wik...ilogue_(Origins)




[*]If Harrowmont becomes king and the Anvil is destroyed, he quickly finds himself in a protracted battle against Bhelen's rebellion that leaves him unable to gain the stability he needed. The clan lords object to many of his measures in the Assembly, and only his efforts to increase the dwarves' isolation from the surface met with any success. In time, Harrowmont's health begins to fail. Some claim it was poison, while others say it is a flagging spirit. Either way, after a protracted illness, the king finally passes away. The wrangling in the Assembly for a successor begins almost immediately.



[*]If Harrowmont is made the new king and the Anvil is saved, he quickly puts down Bhelen's rebellion and then passes a series of laws to please the clan lords. Unfortunately, that isolates the dwarves even further from the surface. Caste restrictions and the rights of the nobles both grow, and trade with the human lands is all but cut off. After a law excluding the casteless from common areas of the city is passed, a rebellion sees the slums reduced practically to rubble. Although outrage is widespread, the Assembly remains united behind King Harrowmont.

Wait. What?

The epilogue in DA:O was a nice touch to fill you in on the effects of some of your choices but it's still just a few paragraphs at the end of the game. The actual in game effects of your choices weren't near as contrasting or colorful. Using your Orzammar example, after completion you secure help from the dwarves. The end. So gameplay effect is again zero right?

As for the story effect you may have more of a point yet not enough to make a absolute difference between the titles. But I see it a different way. Since the story is being told by Varric it really wouldn't be possible to have a nice long detailed narrative at the end. There are still events that, as far as Varric is concerned, that haven't happened, aren't known or weren't discussed. It really wouldn't make sense. So while you have every right to prefer the epilogue at the end of Origins it doesn't really fit DA2 to do it the same way.

[AkiKishi]

mdugger12 wrote...

[*]

Wait. What?

The epilogue in DA:O was a nice touch to fill you in on the effects of some of your choices but it's still just a few paragraphs at the end of the game. The actual in game effects of your choices weren't near as contrasting or colorful. Using your Orzammar example, after completion you secure help from the dwarves. The end. So gameplay effect is again zero right?

As for the story effect you may have more of a point yet not enough to make a absolute difference between the titles. But I see it a different way. Since the story is being told by Varric it really wouldn't be possible to have a nice long detailed narrative at the end. There are still events that, as far as Varric is concerned, that haven't happened, aren't known or weren't discussed. It really wouldn't make sense. So while you have every right to prefer the epilogue at the end of Origins it doesn't really fit DA2 to do it the same way.

Want something gameplay related ? Ok, Specialisations. Getting them required doing certain things. They did not just magically appear.

I won't go into the various requirments but at least one is retconned in DA2.

[mdugger12]

BobSmith101 wrote...

Want something gameplay related ? Ok, Specialisations. Getting them required doing certain things. They did not just magically appear.

I won't go into the various requirments but at least one is retconned in DA2.

I can change d irections. You're right they didn't just give you specializations in DA:O. You had to either buy them, complete a mission you needed to complete anyway, or talking to an NPC. It's not like they were a reward or anything.

I do see your point, they didn't just appear and they were at least at times connected to the story. But if thats the case why not extend that to any skill or ability I didn't have when I started the game? So instead of doing a halfway job we can be happy DA2 just left the whole thing out.

I'm being silly, but come on dude. Getting a Specialization at level 7 or buying it at level 7 can't be that big on an issue. That's just something you can actually point out.

Modifié par mdugger12, 18 avril 2011 - 10:21 .

[Boiny Bunny]

mdugger12 wrote...

Wait. What?

The epilogue in DA:O was a nice touch to fill you in on the effects of some of your choices but it's still just a few paragraphs at the end of the game. The actual in game effects of your choices weren't near as contrasting or colorful. Using your Orzammar example, after completion you secure help from the dwarves. The end. So gameplay effect is again zero right?

Yep, absolutely.  Not much of a gameplay effect.  My above post was very long and probably got a bit mish-mashed up between various points.  I was never trying to make the point that Origins had gameplay effects for choices anymore than DA2 does.  Neither of the two games do.

mdugger12 wrote...

As for the story effect you may have more of a point yet not enough to make a absolute difference between the titles. But I see it a different way. Since the story is being told by Varric it really wouldn't be possible to have a nice long detailed narrative at the end. There are still events that, as far as Varric is concerned, that haven't happened, aren't known or weren't discussed. It really wouldn't make sense. So while you have every right to prefer the epilogue at the end of Origins it doesn't really fit DA2 to do it the same way.

I think you might have missed the start of this discussion.  We are talking about players being frustrated that their choices in DA2 (particularly the one at the end of the game) have no story impact whatsoever.  In particular, Roxlimn was arguing that Hawke getting a 'special' job if he/she sided with the Templars was significant.  I was merely pointing out why, in the eyes of most players, this is not in even the most remote possible way, perceived as being significant.

DA:O is a game where your choices had a vast impact on the epilogue.  DA2 was a game where your choices did nothing at all for the entire game, bar 1 single line in the epilogue.  That's all I'm saying.

[AkiKishi]

mdugger12 wrote...
I can change d irections. You're right they didn't just give you specializations in DA:O. You had to either buy them, complete a mission you needed to complete anyway, or talking to an NPC. It's not like they were a reward or anything.

I do see your point, they didn't just appear and they were at least at times connected to the story. But if thats the case why not extend that to any skill or ability I didn't have when I started the game? So instead of doing a halfway job we can be happy DA2 just left the whole thing out.

I'm being silly, but come on dude. Getting a Specialization at level 7 or buying it at level 7 can't be that big on an issue. That's just something you can actually point out.

Because they are specialisations.Normal skills are covered by classes. You spend time doing X as a warrior and you reach a point where that experience equates to a new skill.

In DA specialisation could have a huge impact on how your character grew and that was reflected in how they were aquired. In DA2 they still have the impact but they are given away for free with no explanation.

Anyway let's get back on topic of what DA2 did wrong.

1. Showed the ending before the begining.
2. Told us a lot of things, showed very little.
3. Made a personal story but never let us act in a personal way.

Let's contrast that with DA.

1. Started off in a way that had nothing to do with the outcome.
2. Showed us that the Grey Wardens wielded power and responsibility greater than kings.
3. Made an Epic story with an epic ending and far reaching out of game consequences.

Modifié par BobSmith101, 18 avril 2011 - 10:48 .

[mdugger12]

Boiny Bunny wrote...

I think you might have missed the start of this discussion.  We are talking about players being frustrated that their choices in DA2 (particularly the one at the end of the game) have no story impact whatsoever.  In particular, Roxlimn was arguing that Hawke getting a 'special' job if he/she sided with the Templars was significant.  I was merely pointing out why, in the eyes of most players, this is not in even the most remote possible way, perceived as being significant.

DA:O is a game where your choices had a vast impact on the epilogue.  DA2 was a game where your choices did nothing at all for the entire game, bar 1 single line in the epilogue.  That's all I'm saying.

No I Understood. Perhaps I should rephrase. I realize I tend to focus on particular aspects of a comment and it takes away from what I mean.

I guess what I want to ask is, if we put the epilogue aside and I agree that choices have little effect on the end game outcome of DA 2. What choices made a difference in the end game outcome of DA:O? And in discussung the epilogue, if the "special job" isn't significant then what exactly makes similar elements in DA:O so much so?

[mdugger12]

BobSmith101 wrote...

mdugger12 wrote...
I can change d irections. You're right they didn't just give you specializations in DA:O. You had to either buy them, complete a mission you needed to complete anyway, or talking to an NPC. It's not like they were a reward or anything.

I do see your point, they didn't just appear and they were at least at times connected to the story. But if thats the case why not extend that to any skill or ability I didn't have when I started the game? So instead of doing a halfway job we can be happy DA2 just left the whole thing out.

I'm being silly, but come on dude. Getting a Specialization at level 7 or buying it at level 7 can't be that big on an issue. That's just something you can actually point out.

Because they are specialisations.Normal skills are covered by classes. You spend time doing X as a warrior and you reach a point where that experience equates to a new skill.

In DA specialisation could have a huge impact on how your character grew and that was reflected in how they were aquired. In DA2 they still have the impact but they are given away for free with no explanation.

Anyway let's get back on topic of what DA2 did wrong.

1. Showed the ending before the begining.
2. Told us a lot of things, showed very little.
3. Made a personal story but never let us act in a personal way.

Let's contrast that with DA.

1. Started off in a way that had nothing to do with the outcome.
2. Showed us that the Grey Wardens wielded power and responsibility greater than kings.
3. Made an Epic story with an epic ending and far reaching out of game consequences.

Ok let's go through this list.
What about the actual in game ending where you told in the the begining od DA2?

After DA:O pretty much had to paint the picture of the DA world from scratch how exactly did you expect DA2 to match  that? Give examples of sequels that don't just expand what we know about an established world but give us more information. A picture was already painted in DA:O

And please explain how stopping another blight is more "epic" and far reaching than the consequences of being instrumental to the biggest change in the society since the end of Tevinter rule?

[Boiny Bunny]

1) The 'special job' is irrelevant. Regardless of whether the job is taken, Hawke vanishes in both story paths after the events of the game.

2) Go to the link I provided above, and you can see all of the choices that make an impact on the ending of Origins. Aside from the 'choose werewolf or elf', 'templar or mage', 'Bhelin or Harrowmont' etc. quests, there are a variety of other quests which all have a significant impact on the land of Ferelden and possibly Thedas as a whole, depending on what you did.

If you helped the dwarf open a chantry in Orzmamer, he is executed and the Divine begins to contemplate an Exaulted March on Orzammer (this is akin to a Crusade, where a large army from Orlais would sweep across Ferelden and crush Orzammer into dust - and probably retake Ferelden as a province of Orlais again, though this much is pure speculation on my part)

The Sacred Ashes decision has impacts. The quest with the female dwarf who wants to study at the mage tower has impacts. Did you do the dark ritual? Did you kill Loghain or take Alistair with you? What did you do with Anora? Marry her? Have her marry Alistair? Marry Alistair yourself? Put Anora in the tower? Did you save Irving in the Circle? Did you know that if you don't, Wynne can become First Enchanter? Or that Cullen can become Knight Commander if Gregioir gets killed?

Just go and read the Epilogue page I listed above. There are dozens of possible ending options, which all play out in different ways depending on what you chose. This is more or less the very definition of having choices with impacts.

[Dragoonlordz]

mdugger12 wrote...

And please explain how stopping another blight is more "epic" and far reaching than the consequences of being instrumental to the biggest change in the society since the end of Tevinter rule?

You wern't instrumental, you were irrelevant, Anders was relevant because he started it regardless if you never used him in your party, never helped him with his vendetta or if did help him. Varric also was more relevant because hes the one whos telling the story. Hawke, was irrelevant. You like shaping your personality of your character fine but that is all you do in DA2. You end up force fed direction far too often in the game. I don't know about you but the fact at the end of DAO you could live or die based on your decisions story wise is a big thing, there were far, far too many bottleneck parts of DA2. David Gaider himself already said that they had to cut out a lot of choices and bottleneck the story in order to make the 'framed narrative' experiment work.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 18 avril 2011 - 11:19 .

[AkiKishi]

mdugger12 wrote...
Ok let's go through this list.
What about the actual in game ending where you told in the the begining od DA2?

After DA:O pretty much had to paint the picture of the DA world from scratch how exactly did you expect DA2 to match  that? Give examples of sequels that don't just expand what we know about an established world but give us more information. A picture was already painted in DA:O

And please explain how stopping another blight is more "epic" and far reaching than the consequences of being instrumental to the biggest change in the society since the end of Tevinter rule?

1. Hawke disapears - the game ends with Hawke disapearing. DA was only retconned that way.
2. Different part of the world. Nice try at a dodge though.
3. Because you stop the Blight with your own hands(Unless you use a patsy). In DA2 once you complete chapter 1 those events will happen anyway. The "artifact" is more instrumental to the ending than Hawke is. Anders/Justice did more than Hawke ever did.

Modifié par BobSmith101, 18 avril 2011 - 11:10 .

[mdugger12]

BobSmith101 wrote...

mdugger12 wrote...
Ok let's go through this list.
What about the actual in game ending where you told in the the begining od DA2?

After DA:O pretty much had to paint the picture of the DA world from scratch how exactly did you expect DA2 to match  that? Give examples of sequels that don't just expand what we know about an established world but give us more information. A picture was already painted in DA:O

And please explain how stopping another blight is more "epic" and far reaching than the consequences of being instrumental to the biggest change in the society since the end of Tevinter rule?

1. Hawke disapears - the game ends with Hawke disapearing. DA was only retconned that way.
2. Different part of the world. Nice try at a dodge though.
3. Because you stop the Blight with your own hands(Unless you use a patsy). In DA2 once you complete chapter 1 those events will happen anyway. The "artifact" is more instrumental to the ending than Hawke is. Anders/Justice did more than Hawke ever did.

1. Hawke disappearing is not part of what happens in the end game climax.
2. Absolutely not lol. It's still Thedas so I'll take it you're just not going to address this one.
3. It doesn't matter if Hawke purposely brought about change or not, his actions were instrumental. Everything he did from the very beginning caused the events in the end. Intentions are just part of the story. Which Varric points out to Cassandra throughout the game.

[mdugger12]

Boiny Bunny wrote...

1) The 'special job' is irrelevant. Regardless of whether the job is taken, Hawke vanishes in both story paths after the events of the game.

2) Go to the link I provided above, and you can see all of the choices that make an impact on the ending of Origins. Aside from the 'choose werewolf or elf', 'templar or mage', 'Bhelin or Harrowmont' etc. quests, there are a variety of other quests which all have a significant impact on the land of Ferelden and possibly Thedas as a whole, depending on what you did.

If you helped the dwarf open a chantry in Orzmamer, he is executed and the Divine begins to contemplate an Exaulted March on Orzammer (this is akin to a Crusade, where a large army from Orlais would sweep across Ferelden and crush Orzammer into dust - and probably retake Ferelden as a province of Orlais again, though this much is pure speculation on my part)

The Sacred Ashes decision has impacts. The quest with the female dwarf who wants to study at the mage tower has impacts. Did you do the dark ritual? Did you kill Loghain or take Alistair with you? What did you do with Anora? Marry her? Have her marry Alistair? Marry Alistair yourself? Put Anora in the tower? Did you save Irving in the Circle? Did you know that if you don't, Wynne can become First Enchanter? Or that Cullen can become Knight Commander if Gregioir gets killed?

Just go and read the Epilogue page I listed above. There are dozens of possible ending options, which all play out in different ways depending on what you chose. This is more or less the very definition of having choices with impacts.

Ok. So If DA2 wrapped up Hawke's story in the end and gave a long detailed epilogue where you can read the impacts of all your choices that would be better than receiving letters from characters you helped detailing their life after meeting you and wrapping up other loose ends from right there in game?

Or are you just saying DA:O did a better job acknowledging your choices by adding them in a well done, detailed story after completing the game? 

[AkiKishi]

mdugger12 wrote...
1. Hawke disappearing is not part of what happens in the end game climax.
2. Absolutely not lol. It's still Thedas so I'll take it you're just not going to address this one.
3. It doesn't matter if Hawke purposely brought about change or not, his actions were instrumental. Everything he did from the very beginning caused the events in the end. Intentions are just part of the story. Which Varric points out to Cassandra throughout the game.

1.That's how the game ends. It's the outcome of everything.
2. I said different part of the world not different world. It's not Fereldan is it. Ball is still in your court.
3. There was tension between the Mages and Templars before Hawke was on the scene.That's like saying because you let some guy out ahead of you in traffic and they later knocked someone over, it's your fault.

[Persephone]

mdugger12 wrote...

Boiny Bunny wrote...

1) The 'special job' is irrelevant. Regardless of whether the job is taken, Hawke vanishes in both story paths after the events of the game.

2) Go to the link I provided above, and you can see all of the choices that make an impact on the ending of Origins. Aside from the 'choose werewolf or elf', 'templar or mage', 'Bhelin or Harrowmont' etc. quests, there are a variety of other quests which all have a significant impact on the land of Ferelden and possibly Thedas as a whole, depending on what you did.

If you helped the dwarf open a chantry in Orzmamer, he is executed and the Divine begins to contemplate an Exaulted March on Orzammer (this is akin to a Crusade, where a large army from Orlais would sweep across Ferelden and crush Orzammer into dust - and probably retake Ferelden as a province of Orlais again, though this much is pure speculation on my part)

The Sacred Ashes decision has impacts. The quest with the female dwarf who wants to study at the mage tower has impacts. Did you do the dark ritual? Did you kill Loghain or take Alistair with you? What did you do with Anora? Marry her? Have her marry Alistair? Marry Alistair yourself? Put Anora in the tower? Did you save Irving in the Circle? Did you know that if you don't, Wynne can become First Enchanter? Or that Cullen can become Knight Commander if Gregioir gets killed?

Just go and read the Epilogue page I listed above. There are dozens of possible ending options, which all play out in different ways depending on what you chose. This is more or less the very definition of having choices with impacts.

Ok. So If DA2 wrapped up Hawke's story in the end and gave a long detailed epilogue where you can read the impacts of all your choices that would be better than receiving letters from characters you helped detailing their life after meeting you and wrapping up other loose ends from right there in game?

Or are you just saying DA:O did a better job acknowledging your choices by adding them in a well done, detailed story after completing the game? 

Yah. Bugged MS Dos Epilogue boxes are perfect. (Not! They are a cheap cop out)

I for one loved the whole "DAMN. Lots of stuff going on, how will all of this be solved in the next one(s)?" feeling DAII gave me. My friends and I are spending hours of discussing possible outcomes and theories. Never did that with DAO.

[mdugger12]

BobSmith101 wrote...

mdugger12 wrote...
1. Hawke disappearing is not part of what happens in the end game climax.
2. Absolutely not lol. It's still Thedas so I'll take it you're just not going to address this one.
3. It doesn't matter if Hawke purposely brought about change or not, his actions were instrumental. Everything he did from the very beginning caused the events in the end. Intentions are just part of the story. Which Varric points out to Cassandra throughout the game.

1.That's how the game ends. It's the outcome of everything.
2. I said different part of the world not different world. It's not Fereldan is it. Ball is still in your court.
3. There was tension between the Mages and Templars before Hawke was on the scene.That's like saying because you let some guy out ahead of you in traffic and they later knocked someone over, it's your fault.

Ok. We're going in circles on the first issue so just for conversation sake I'll back off.

2. We stilll didn't leave the known world of Thedas. Even though DA:O took place in Fereldan we still were given the lowdown of Thedas history.
3. There was tension back in DA:O things had to happen for everything to fall apart. The Warden had a hand in these events. He wasn't always aware of what his involvement was but he wasn't some glorified Mr. Magoo and things were just happening around him.