843 réponses à ce sujet

[Boiny Bunny]

mdugger12 wrote...

Ok. So If DA2 wrapped up Hawke's story in the end and gave a long detailed epilogue where you can read the impacts of all your choices that would be better than receiving letters from characters you helped detailing their life after meeting you and wrapping up other loose ends from right there in game?

Or are you just saying DA:O did a better job acknowledging your choices by adding them in a well done, detailed story after completing the game? 

No, I'm simply saying that DA:O had a great deal of choices which had vast storyline impacts, and these were acknowledged.  I have no intention of debating the medium through which those impacts were depicted.

DA2 has no choices, not a single one, which has a 'vast' storyline impact.  At the end of the game, DA2 has nothing to acknowledge.  You got that 'special job' or ran off into the hills.  Then shortly after, you dissapeared.  The end.  That's it.

[Persephone]

Boiny Bunny wrote...

mdugger12 wrote...

Ok. So If DA2 wrapped up Hawke's story in the end and gave a long detailed epilogue where you can read the impacts of all your choices that would be better than receiving letters from characters you helped detailing their life after meeting you and wrapping up other loose ends from right there in game?

Or are you just saying DA:O did a better job acknowledging your choices by adding them in a well done, detailed story after completing the game? 

DA2 has no choices, not a single one, which has a 'vast' storyline impact.  At the end of the game, DA2 has nothing to acknowledge.  You got that 'special job' or ran off into the hills.  Then shortly after, you dissapeared.  The end.  That's it.

I certainly ran into MANY choices during my five and now 6th playthrough, all of which giving me an entirely different feel. Were they unrealistic "Change the world/people 180 degrees because Super Warden commands it! And NPCs may NEVER resist!" or "EEEEK, morally ambigous choice! Let's throw in a cop out route for those who cannot deal with realism ala running to the Circle to save a possessed psycho brat, never mind the stooooooopid risk!" scenarios ala DAO? (Hyperbole, granted, but it seems necessary these days) No. And I'm glad of it. Could it have been done better? Yes. Do I want DAO's "Use NPCS/Circumstances as mindless puppets" way back? No way!

[mdugger12]

Boiny Bunny wrote...

mdugger12 wrote...

Ok. So If DA2 wrapped up Hawke's story in the end and gave a long detailed epilogue where you can read the impacts of all your choices that would be better than receiving letters from characters you helped detailing their life after meeting you and wrapping up other loose ends from right there in game?

Or are you just saying DA:O did a better job acknowledging your choices by adding them in a well done, detailed story after completing the game? 

No, I'm simply saying that DA:O had a great deal of choices which had vast storyline impacts, and these were acknowledged.  I have no intention of debating the medium through which those impacts were depicted.

DA2 has no choices, not a single one, which has a 'vast' storyline impact.  At the end of the game, DA2 has nothing to acknowledge.  You got that 'special job' or ran off into the hills.  Then shortly after, you dissapeared.  The end.  That's it.

Lol Ok. Well regardless of how DA:O handled the impact of those so called choices I can't say you're wrong. Since they did exist in some regard nonetheless.

[AkiKishi]

mdugger12 wrote...
Ok. We're going in circles on the first issue so just for conversation sake I'll back off.

2. We stilll didn't leave the known world of Thedas. Even though DA:O took place in Fereldan we still were given the lowdown of Thedas history.
3. There was tension back in DA:O things had to happen for everything to fall apart. The Warden had a hand in these events. He wasn't always aware of what his involvement was but he wasn't some glorified Mr. Magoo and things were just happening around him.

There is no in circles that is how the game ends,with Hawke missing. Varric is dragged to the Chantry because Cassandra wants to find Hawke. Everything that happens in DA2 has already happened.

2. This is Kirkwall to coin a phrase. There is plenty in the free marches but the game confines us to Kirkwall simply because there is no where else to go. Not for any good reason.

3. Hawke = Glorified MrMagoo ? 

[mdugger12]

Persephone wrote...

Boiny Bunny wrote...

mdugger12 wrote...

Ok. So If DA2 wrapped up Hawke's story in the end and gave a long detailed epilogue where you can read the impacts of all your choices that would be better than receiving letters from characters you helped detailing their life after meeting you and wrapping up other loose ends from right there in game?

Or are you just saying DA:O did a better job acknowledging your choices by adding them in a well done, detailed story after completing the game? 

DA2 has no choices, not a single one, which has a 'vast' storyline impact.  At the end of the game, DA2 has nothing to acknowledge.  You got that 'special job' or ran off into the hills.  Then shortly after, you dissapeared.  The end.  That's it.

I certainly ran into MANY choices during my five and now 6th playthrough, all of which giving me an entirely different feel. Were they unrealistic "Change the world/people 180 degrees because Super Warden commands it! And NPCs may NEVER resist!" or "EEEEK, morally ambigous choice! Let's throw in a cop out route for those who cannot deal with realism ala running to the Circle to save a possessed psycho brat, never mind the stooooooopid risk!" scenarios ala DAO? (Hyperbole, granted, but it seems necessary these days) No. And I'm glad of it. Could it have been done better? Yes. Do I want DAO's "Use NPCS/Circumstances as mindless puppets" way back? No way!

See I feel the same way but I can't deny that, even though I didn't feel like those choices added much to the main story, I guess they were there to some extent. But I'm happy with the way DA2 handled things.

[Boiny Bunny]

Persephone wrote...

Boiny Bunny wrote...

mdugger12 wrote...

Ok. So If DA2 wrapped up Hawke's story in the end and gave a long detailed epilogue where you can read the impacts of all your choices that would be better than receiving letters from characters you helped detailing their life after meeting you and wrapping up other loose ends from right there in game?

Or are you just saying DA:O did a better job acknowledging your choices by adding them in a well done, detailed story after completing the game? 

DA2 has no choices, not a single one, which has a 'vast' storyline impact.  At the end of the game, DA2 has nothing to acknowledge.  You got that 'special job' or ran off into the hills.  Then shortly after, you dissapeared.  The end.  That's it.

I certainly ran into MANY choices during my five and now 6th playthrough, all of which giving me an entirely different feel. Were they unrealistic "Change the world/people 180 degrees because Super Warden commands it! And NPCs may NEVER resist!" or "EEEEK, morally ambigous choice! Let's throw in a cop out route for those who cannot deal with realism ala running to the Circle to save a possessed psycho brat, never mind the stooooooopid risk!" scenarios ala DAO? (Hyperbole, granted, but it seems necessary these days) No. And I'm glad of it. Could it have been done better? Yes. Do I want DAO's "Use NPCS/Circumstances as mindless puppets" way back? No way!

 I liked that paragraph!

Anyway, we're now delving into more subjective material.

Personally, I thought DA:O offered too many 'easy ways out' - such as what you have listed above.

Then I thought, DA2 did the exact opposite - it offers far too many situations where there is no good way out.

Ideally for me, a game should offer a balance between the two.  I'd gotten rather sick of absolutely every single thing that could possibly go wrong going wrong again and again by the end of DA2. 

I did actually thoroughly enjoy the fact that Harrowmount was a terrible king and died shortly after Origins if you didn't keep the Anvil, even though he was the 'moral and good' candidate for the throne.

[mdugger12]

BobSmith101 wrote...

There is no in circles that is how the game ends,with Hawke missing. Varric is dragged to the Chantry because Cassandra wants to find Hawke. Everything that happens in DA2 has already happened.

2. This is Kirkwall to coin a phrase. There is plenty in the free marches but the game confines us to Kirkwall simply because there is no where else to go. Not for any good reason.

3. Hawke = Glorified MrMagoo ? 

2. Yeah and regardless of your feeling on Kirkwall I think we all can agree that we know the ends and outs of The City of Chains.

3. Well yeah. You're acting like Hawke blindly survived all the events of the game and looked up to notice he was the Champion of Kirkwall and the world was on fire.

[Persephone]

Boiny Bunny wrote...

Persephone wrote...

Boiny Bunny wrote...

mdugger12 wrote...

Ok. So If DA2 wrapped up Hawke's story in the end and gave a long detailed epilogue where you can read the impacts of all your choices that would be better than receiving letters from characters you helped detailing their life after meeting you and wrapping up other loose ends from right there in game?

Or are you just saying DA:O did a better job acknowledging your choices by adding them in a well done, detailed story after completing the game? 

DA2 has no choices, not a single one, which has a 'vast' storyline impact.  At the end of the game, DA2 has nothing to acknowledge.  You got that 'special job' or ran off into the hills.  Then shortly after, you dissapeared.  The end.  That's it.

I certainly ran into MANY choices during my five and now 6th playthrough, all of which giving me an entirely different feel. Were they unrealistic "Change the world/people 180 degrees because Super Warden commands it! And NPCs may NEVER resist!" or "EEEEK, morally ambigous choice! Let's throw in a cop out route for those who cannot deal with realism ala running to the Circle to save a possessed psycho brat, never mind the stooooooopid risk!" scenarios ala DAO? (Hyperbole, granted, but it seems necessary these days) No. And I'm glad of it. Could it have been done better? Yes. Do I want DAO's "Use NPCS/Circumstances as mindless puppets" way back? No way!

 I liked that paragraph!

Anyway, we're now delving into more subjective material.

Personally, I thought DA:O offered too many 'easy ways out' - such as what you have listed above.

Then I thought, DA2 did the exact opposite - it offers far too many situations where there is no good way out.

Ideally for me, a game should offer a balance between the two.  I'd gotten rather sick of absolutely every single thing that could possibly go wrong going wrong again and again by the end of DA2. 

I did actually thoroughly enjoy the fact that Harrowmount was a terrible king and died shortly after Origins if you didn't keep the Anvil, even though he was the 'moral and good' candidate for the throne.

I'm in partial agreement there.

Even though seeing my first (Diplomatic/Sweet) Mage Hawke losing everything she holds dear over time while gaining status (Nice contrast, very realistic too) was an emotional rollercoaster no game has ever put me through. When a certain party member took a certain action in Act III, I was shaking all over, yelling at the screen..."Please, NO! DON'T! NOOOOOOOOO!" .And having lost both my own mother and a sister (To cancer) made me tear up during certain scenes. (Strangely enough the Cousland background never felt that harrowing) 

[AkiKishi]

mdugger12 wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

There is no in circles that is how the game ends,with Hawke missing. Varric is dragged to the Chantry because Cassandra wants to find Hawke. Everything that happens in DA2 has already happened.

2. This is Kirkwall to coin a phrase. There is plenty in the free marches but the game confines us to Kirkwall simply because there is no where else to go. Not for any good reason.

3. Hawke = Glorified MrMagoo ? 

2. Yeah and regardless of your feeling on Kirkwall I think we all can agree that we know the ends and outs of The City of Chains.

3. Well yeah. You're acting like Hawke blindly survived all the events of the game and looked up to notice he was the Champion of Kirkwall and the world was on fire.

Anders does what he does regardless. It's not like DA where you can "harden" a character against type. Hawke can choose what he does with Anders, but only because at that point Anders is no longer relevent to the story. And heck Bioware can always bring him back anyway. Heads in Thedas are optional. 


 

[Boiny Bunny]

I'm in partial agreement there.

Even though seeing my first (Diplomatic/Sweet) Mage Hawke losing everything she holds dear over time while gaining status (Nice contrast, very realistic too) was an emotional rollercoaster no game has ever put me through. When a certain party member took a certain action in Act III, I was shaking all over, yelling at the screen..."Please, NO! DON'T! NOOOOOOOOO!" .And having lost both my own mother and a sister (To cancer) made me tear up during certain scenes. (Strangely enough the Cousland background never felt that harrowing) 

^ Sorry to hear about your mother and sister. 

Strangely enough, I do remember being a bit emotional at the end of the Cousland thing, when I realised my mother was going to stay and die when she could have run away with me.
I had cancer a few years back.  Not something that anybody should ever have to deal with.

Modifié par Boiny Bunny, 18 avril 2011 - 12:15 .

[mdugger12]

Persephone wrote...

I'm in partial agreement there.

Even though seeing my first (Diplomatic/Sweet) Mage Hawke losing everything she holds dear over time while gaining status (Nice contrast, very realistic too) was an emotional rollercoaster no game has ever put me through. When a certain party member took a certain action in Act III, I was shaking all over, yelling at the screen..."Please, NO! DON'T! NOOOOOOOOO!" .And having lost both my own mother and a sister (To cancer) made me tear up during certain scenes. (Strangely enough the Cousland background never felt that harrowing) 

Oh that's the only thing I disagree with you about. The Cousland background was my first playthrough and I loooooathed Howe. My true mission was to end his life and the warden/blight stuff played second fiddle.

[Persephone]

Boiny Bunny wrote...

I'm in partial agreement there.

Even though seeing my first (Diplomatic/Sweet) Mage Hawke losing everything she holds dear over time while gaining status (Nice contrast, very realistic too) was an emotional rollercoaster no game has ever put me through. When a certain party member took a certain action in Act III, I was shaking all over, yelling at the screen..."Please, NO! DON'T! NOOOOOOOOO!" .And having lost both my own mother and a sister (To cancer) made me tear up during certain scenes. (Strangely enough the Cousland background never felt that harrowing) 

^ Sorry to hear about your mother and sister. 

Strangely enough, I do remember being a bit emotional at the end of the Cousland thing, when I realised my mother was going to stay and die when she could have run away with me.
I had cancer a few years back.  Not something that anybody should ever have to deal with.

Oh, I felt emotional over the Cousland origin too.

But seeing Hawke's Mom and sibling go....I sobbed my heart out. Because...the dialogue between Leandra and Hawke reminded me of what my own mother said to me before she went away.

"My little girl has become so strong (I was 20). Take care of your sister..." etc. And me saying "Go home to heaven, there is no chemo there and we'll be fine, I swear!"

I am so sorry to hear that you had cancer. I'm glad you made it through, truly.

[AkiKishi]

mdugger12 wrote...

Persephone wrote...

I'm in partial agreement there.

Even though seeing my first (Diplomatic/Sweet) Mage Hawke losing everything she holds dear over time while gaining status (Nice contrast, very realistic too) was an emotional rollercoaster no game has ever put me through. When a certain party member took a certain action in Act III, I was shaking all over, yelling at the screen..."Please, NO! DON'T! NOOOOOOOOO!" .And having lost both my own mother and a sister (To cancer) made me tear up during certain scenes. (Strangely enough the Cousland background never felt that harrowing) 

Oh that's the only thing I disagree with you about. The Cousland background was my first playthrough and I loooooathed Howe. My true mission was to end his life and the warden/blight stuff played second fiddle.

Contrast the context of that with the Bethany thing after act 1.

In DA you are a newb, outside is an army.
In DA2 you just came back from slaughtering demons, demi gods and darkspawn. Standing in front of you are a couple of Templars (who you have already been killing by the dozen).

In DA it makes sense that you have to run. In DA2 it's done because it's the only story outcome allowed for.

Modifié par BobSmith101, 18 avril 2011 - 12:21 .

[Persephone]

BobSmith101 wrote...

mdugger12 wrote...

Persephone wrote...

I'm in partial agreement there.

Even though seeing my first (Diplomatic/Sweet) Mage Hawke losing everything she holds dear over time while gaining status (Nice contrast, very realistic too) was an emotional rollercoaster no game has ever put me through. When a certain party member took a certain action in Act III, I was shaking all over, yelling at the screen..."Please, NO! DON'T! NOOOOOOOOO!" .And having lost both my own mother and a sister (To cancer) made me tear up during certain scenes. (Strangely enough the Cousland background never felt that harrowing) 

Oh that's the only thing I disagree with you about. The Cousland background was my first playthrough and I loooooathed Howe. My true mission was to end his life and the warden/blight stuff played second fiddle.

Contrast the context of that with the Bethany thing after act 1.

In DA you are a newb, outside is an army.
In DA2 you just came back from slaughtering demons, demi gods and darkspawn. Standing in front of you are a couple of Templars (who you have already been killing by the dozen).

In DA it makes sense that you have to run. In DA2 it's done because it's the only story outcome allowed for.

Who says Hawke ran? He/she disappeared "like the Warden". It's one of the puzzles I'm dying to see solved in the next installment.

[Yrkoon]

My apologies if someone has already pointed this out...

Shadowbanner wrote...


Nope, it's a direct consequence of BioWare's own making.

I believe BioWare chose to expand its existing fanbase and reach out for casual players (mainstream console). They decided that it was a worthwhile tradeoff to sacrifice a few old grumpy diehard hard-core RPG fans in exchange of appealing to a much larger, younger crowd and in the process make more money, BIG money. (EA approves this paragraph)

Now in principle this, from a corporate strategy point of view, seems a pretty smart move. Heck, even I would buy into it drooling at the expected sales figures and my future annual bonus.

Unfortunetely  (or fortunately, depending on how you look at it)  It's  an even smarter  short term strategy than you're describing.

This "die hard RPG crowd" that you're talking about has, over the years  developed a loyalty to Bioware that is truly unique to the industry.  These people were *guaranteed* sales to  a bioware game... and Laidlaw & co knew that when they sat down to design DA2. 

So basically what you had was a mindset of:  "LOL we can throw all caution to the wind and   take Dragon age towards the COD crowd direction    and tap into that market's fans  and we don't even have to worry about  the financial consequences of alienating our base crowd because they're gonna buy the game anyway... since its got our name on it.

And they were right.  400,000 pre-order sales later,  Laidlaw  is now enjoying some early vindication.


Of course this is a 1 time cash-in.  I doubt the "hard core" rpg crowd will allow themselves to blindly trust bioware again.  they'll need some heavy reassurances

Modifié par Yrkoon, 18 avril 2011 - 12:28 .

[LeBurns]

Well a lengthy post and well put together.  It makes some general assuptions of course and there are those here that will quickly point out that they are exactly the opposit of what you assumed, but honestly you could say the sky is blue here and someone would want to argue that it's actually Cobalt blue or something else.  But I agree that your assumptions are generally correct.

I hate the fact that you wasted your time to write it however, since no one of any importance will read it or acknowledge any of it as valid.

In the mean time I'll just start up another character for DA:O.  I've been roleplaying them a lot lately and having a lot of fun while doing it.

[Persephone]

Yrkoon wrote..


Of course this is a 1 time cash-in.  I doubt the "hard core" rpg crowd will allow themselves to blindly trust bioware again.  they'll need some heavy reassurances

I doubt it. They were still buying stuff after bashing Awakening, Golems, WH....

Once the next release is around the corner, the excitement will be back.

[Boiny Bunny]

Persephone wrote...

Boiny Bunny wrote...

I'm in partial agreement there.

Even though seeing my first (Diplomatic/Sweet) Mage Hawke losing everything she holds dear over time while gaining status (Nice contrast, very realistic too) was an emotional rollercoaster no game has ever put me through. When a certain party member took a certain action in Act III, I was shaking all over, yelling at the screen..."Please, NO! DON'T! NOOOOOOOOO!" .And having lost both my own mother and a sister (To cancer) made me tear up during certain scenes. (Strangely enough the Cousland background never felt that harrowing) 

^ Sorry to hear about your mother and sister. 

Strangely enough, I do remember being a bit emotional at the end of the Cousland thing, when I realised my mother was going to stay and die when she could have run away with me.
I had cancer a few years back.  Not something that anybody should ever have to deal with.

Oh, I felt emotional over the Cousland origin too.

But seeing Hawke's Mom and sibling go....I sobbed my heart out. Because...the dialogue between Leandra and Hawke reminded me of what my own mother said to me before she went away.

"My little girl has become so strong (I was 20). Take care of your sister..." etc. And me saying "Go home to heaven, there is no chemo there and we'll be fine, I swear!"

I am so sorry to hear that you had cancer. I'm glad you made it through, truly.

Thanks. 

Sometimes it feels a lifetime ago, others, like it was yesterday.  It's not something that ever really leaves you, but that isn't necessarily a bad thing...

I too am often more emotionally affected by stories when I can somehow relate them to an emotional event in my life.

[AkiKishi]

Persephone wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

mdugger12 wrote...

Persephone wrote...

I'm in partial agreement there.

Even though seeing my first (Diplomatic/Sweet) Mage Hawke losing everything she holds dear over time while gaining status (Nice contrast, very realistic too) was an emotional rollercoaster no game has ever put me through. When a certain party member took a certain action in Act III, I was shaking all over, yelling at the screen..."Please, NO! DON'T! NOOOOOOOOO!" .And having lost both my own mother and a sister (To cancer) made me tear up during certain scenes. (Strangely enough the Cousland background never felt that harrowing) 

Oh that's the only thing I disagree with you about. The Cousland background was my first playthrough and I loooooathed Howe. My true mission was to end his life and the warden/blight stuff played second fiddle.

Contrast the context of that with the Bethany thing after act 1.

In DA you are a newb, outside is an army.
In DA2 you just came back from slaughtering demons, demi gods and darkspawn. Standing in front of you are a couple of Templars (who you have already been killing by the dozen).

In DA it makes sense that you have to run. In DA2 it's done because it's the only story outcome allowed for.

Who says Hawke ran? He/she disappeared "like the Warden". It's one of the puzzles I'm dying to see solved in the next installment.

You might want to reread that. It's got nothing to do with the end of DA2.

[Persephone]

BobSmith101 wrote...

Persephone wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

mdugger12 wrote...

Persephone wrote...

I'm in partial agreement there.

Even though seeing my first (Diplomatic/Sweet) Mage Hawke losing everything she holds dear over time while gaining status (Nice contrast, very realistic too) was an emotional rollercoaster no game has ever put me through. When a certain party member took a certain action in Act III, I was shaking all over, yelling at the screen..."Please, NO! DON'T! NOOOOOOOOO!" .And having lost both my own mother and a sister (To cancer) made me tear up during certain scenes. (Strangely enough the Cousland background never felt that harrowing) 

Oh that's the only thing I disagree with you about. The Cousland background was my first playthrough and I loooooathed Howe. My true mission was to end his life and the warden/blight stuff played second fiddle.

Contrast the context of that with the Bethany thing after act 1.

In DA you are a newb, outside is an army.
In DA2 you just came back from slaughtering demons, demi gods and darkspawn. Standing in front of you are a couple of Templars (who you have already been killing by the dozen).

In DA it makes sense that you have to run. In DA2 it's done because it's the only story outcome allowed for.

Who says Hawke ran? He/she disappeared "like the Warden". It's one of the puzzles I'm dying to see solved in the next installment.

You might want to reread that. It's got nothing to do with the end of DA2.

Ooh. EEEK. Sorry, Bob. That's what I get for posting here while at work.

[Slayer299]

Roxlimn wrote...
Slayer299:

It was clear to me from the framed narrative that SOMETHING BAD happened and that Varric is being questioned about it by Cassandra. This ending was never in question, and in fact, they hit your face with it from the get go. It's already happened - they're just talking about it. That's DA2.

In DAO, the ending was more in question. The Warden COULD fail, and it was made to appear that this was a plausible ending. But you're never given that story. You either succeed, or you don't complete the game.

You're correct and I was probably unclear. I did not mean that avoiding the situation was possible since the game started with something big that had happened. But, even if the end result (war between the two factions) was inevitable it shoud not have made the ending identical as it makes it seems all your choices are pointless. There should have been some differentiation between the two, even if the overall end wound up being the same (war). 

And this is about as far OT as I think I should go here, it's hard to say more without breaking the no-spoilers.

[Shadowbanner]

Otterwarden wrote...

Shadowbanner wrote...

I understand more what you say in the ME context, but not in DA2. DA2 is not "cinematics" as ME2 is for example.

Umm, but there have been hints that they wanted it to be, that they wanted to simplify it even further.  Presumably this would be done to make it flow better like ME2 did.  Couldn't find the quote source, but in looking through things did find this that makes it perfectly obvious that they understood the dichotomy upfront:

articles.nydailynews.com/2011-03-03/entertainment/28669532_1_role-playing-game-mass-effect-dn/2


"Gaider: You decide right at the beginning. We sit out and talk about vision.What
is the experience that we want? The thing I always find is fans - God
love 'em - they enjoy what they enjoy. A lot of them have this idea that
a game can be all things to all RPG fans.You can try. You can
try to please everyone. But what probably is going to happen is you're
not going to do each aspect well. What you're going to wind up doing is
disappointing everybody. So we stay focused."

Fans, "God love 'em" be damned. 

Wow, I mean just wow. They DID understand from the onstart the dichotomy they would be up against.

That's exactly what I'm writing about, you cannot please everyone; they themselves acknowledge it, albeit regardless they go and do it just the same. A game that few can relate to because it's a hybrid of sorts. It's a house divided amongst two camps. It has to be entirely one or the other, but not both, least they continue fetching negativity in future releases.

Modifié par Shadowbanner, 18 avril 2011 - 12:54 .

[Shadowbanner]

Roxlimn wrote...

Shadowbanner:

Resused dungeons, exploding bodies, teleporting ninjas, super fast combat, poor storyline, lack of immersion, waves and waves an waves of enemies materialisng out of thin air negating tactical positioning, lack of TRUE choices in an RPG!!! etc all the afore are unrelated to my expectations on a DA:O and I think we;ll both agree are objective complaints voiced by almost everyone else.

They may not be related to DA:O, but they're absolutely related to your worship of DAO.

None of the complaints you mention in this post are objectively bad characteristics in a game, and some aren't even factually correct.

Ahem, ok whatever.

I understand, you liked the game and you defend it. That's fine.

Let's draw the line here, as it's clear we are not going to come into an agreement as the afore flaws are objective flaws in my opinion for an RPG. They are completely unrelated to my expectation on a DA:O sequel. Moreover, it's you who keeps mentioning DA:O, not me. Bizarre.

You write that:

Roxlimn wrote...

None of the complaints you mention in this post are objectively bad characteristics in a game, and some aren't even factually correct.

For you reused dungeons is fine, that's not an objective complaint. Right...

You may want to read gamer's reviews in Amazon, Metacritic, Gamespot etc. I'm not talking of the grumpys who rated it a 2/10, I'm talking of the glowing reviews of 10/10 or 9/10. They all happen to mention as a flaw the reuse of dungeons, even Mike Laidlaw has acknowledged it in various interviews.

Buy you don't see it as an objective flaw. Whatever blows your boat my friend.

Modifié par Shadowbanner, 18 avril 2011 - 01:14 .

[Dragoonlordz]

Persephone wrote...

I'm in partial agreement there.

Even though seeing my first (Diplomatic/Sweet) Mage Hawke losing everything she holds dear over time while gaining status (Nice contrast, very realistic too) was an emotional rollercoaster no game has ever put me through. When a certain party member took a certain action in Act III, I was shaking all over, yelling at the screen..."Please, NO! DON'T! NOOOOOOOOO!" .And having lost both my own mother and a sister (To cancer) made me tear up during certain scenes. (Strangely enough the Cousland background never felt that harrowing) 

There are a vast amount of games where you lose siblings and family, DA2 does nothing special in this regard, in fact it does it in a very cheap way, lose one right at start 2 minutes into game. All family is dropped on you with no background so NOONE can feel the bond of loss with that first loss and if they say they do they are lying because they didn't give you the option or time to build any bond, they may fix that with a future DLC but not as it stands right now.

The next potential loss comes right after the end of act one. There is a resemblence of bond built up IF you happen to have got invested in the chit chat between them and your character. Then you are forced regardless to lose another but this is also in other games you cannot say this is the only game that has it.

Some people felt more towards the Warden and his companions due to the fact there was alot more interaction, you felt more towards Hawke and his companions and such well good for you but neither is wrong. This whole one game sucked because I didn't feel one way or this game is epic because it made me feel that way is all personal preference and you lot arguing about this is immature.

DAO even the devs admit was designed based on the theory that choices affect the world you play through and effects the end of the game, saying it doesn't only makes a fool of yourself because it does no matter how pedantic you wish to be. The devs have also said that a lot of DA2 is locked in aka roadblocked in order to express the framed narrative but that they made this up for people with character personality choices instead. Two different ways of telling the story, both doing it in different ways. Your feeling about whether you felt the change or not is just that (your) feeling. The game was designed one way in DAO and another in DA2 if you managed to soak up more than what they designed it for good for you.

@ Rox I already pointed out your projecting your own views onto others if you wish to contribute then do so without always reverting to "They may not be related to DA:O, but they're absolutely related to your worship of DAO". Thats your problem and assumption not theirs.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 18 avril 2011 - 01:47 .