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[Captain Sassy Pants]

abaris wrote...

Shadowbanner wrote...


I believe BioWare chose to expand its existing fanbase and reach out for casual players (consol-like). They decided that it was a worthwhile tradeoff to sacrifice a few old grumpy diehard hard-core RPG fans in exchange of appealing to a much larger, younger crowd and in the process make more money. (EA approves this paragraph)

And if that's true, its a crucial mistake, probably made by suits, backed up by some expensive surveys.

But ask yourself this: If you're a fan of Mozart, would you buy a Kenny Rogers CD? Or Kenny Rogers doing Mozart?

That's what it comes to. Kenny Rogers fans probably don't want him to sing Papageno and I guess opera fans won't want to listen to Kenny Rogers singing Papageno either.

And that's what they try just now. You can't please both sides with one strike.

I agree with this.

My first foray into "RPG"s was, ahem, the original Diablo. I loved that game then, and I still love it now (still play it every few months).

Then Baldur's Gate came out. My friend and I bought it solely because the view perspective was like Diablo's, so we figured it would be another Diablo-type game. We were wrong, but we loved it for what it was, and we didn't hate it based on what we had hoped it would be. It opened me up to a new sub-genre I had never tried before.

I love hack-n-slash "RPG"s like Diablo (though, similar to DA2, I do not like the direction Diablo 3 has taken and I refuse to buy it). I also love more "complex" games like the Baldur's Gate series. 

That doesn't mean that I want the two to mix. I play each for what they are.

Modifié par Captain Sassy Pants, 18 avril 2011 - 01:37 .

[Captain Sassy Pants]

Accidental post.

Modifié par Captain Sassy Pants, 18 avril 2011 - 01:37 .

[Persephone]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

Persephone wrote...

I'm in partial agreement there.

Even though seeing my first (Diplomatic/Sweet) Mage Hawke losing everything she holds dear over time while gaining status (Nice contrast, very realistic too) was an emotional rollercoaster no game has ever put me through. When a certain party member took a certain action in Act III, I was shaking all over, yelling at the screen..."Please, NO! DON'T! NOOOOOOOOO!" .And having lost both my own mother and a sister (To cancer) made me tear up during certain scenes. (Strangely enough the Cousland background never felt that harrowing) 

There are a vast amount of games where you lose siblings and family, DA2 does nothing special in this regard, in fact it does it in a very cheap way, lose one right at start 2 minutes into game. All family is dropped on you with no background so NOONE can feel the bond of loss with that first loss and if they say they do they are lying.

The next potential loss comes right after the end of act one. There is a resemblence of bond built up IF you happen to have got invested in the chit chat between them and your character. Then you are forced regardless to lose another but this is also in other games you cannot say this is the only game that has it.

Some people felt more towards the Warden and his companions due to the fact there was alot more interaction, you felt more towards Hawke and his companions and such well good for you but neither is wrong. This whole one game sucked because I didn't feel one way or this game is epic because it made me feel that way is all personal preference and you lot arguing about this is immature.

DAO even the devs admit was designed based on the theory that choices affect the world you play through and effects the end of the game, saying it doesn't only makes a fool of yourself because it does no matter how pedantic you wish to be. The devs have also said that a lot of DA2 is locked in aka roadblocked in order to express the framed narrative but that they made this up for people with character personality choices instead. Two different ways of telling the story, both doing it in different ways. Your feeling about whether you felt the change or not is just that (your) feeling. The game was designed one way in DAO and another in DA2 if you managed to soak up more than what they designed it for good for you.

And?

Many movies also deal with losing family members or cancer. Not all of them made me tear up. DAII did.

Stop accusing me of lying and kindly refrain from putting words in my mouth. And I saw PLENTY of background, esp. the Lily Killer plotline. And random casualities of war (Sibling) bloody happen. It would be illogical (Though sweet and fluffy and epic....if everyone made it out of Lothering just like that)

I never said this is the only game that has this. But this one put me on an emotional rollercoaster like no other.

"This whole one game sucked because I didn't feel one way or this game is
epic because it made me feel that way is all personal preference and you
lot arguing about this is immature."

Do NOT tell me how to feel about a story. Do NOT tell me where I am permitted to feel immersed, moved and emotionally connected. And that whole line coming from you is rather poignant, how about following what you preach? (And tell that to the rest of the horde descending upon every positive DAII thread/post with their vitriol, while you're at it!)

"in DA2 if you managed to soak up more than what they designed it for good for you."

Why thank you for your generosity and for the insult all in one package.

[Shadowbanner]

AAHook2 wrote...

Back to the original point about Origins vs Kirkwall being a generational gap at play:

I play on a console. I'm not a huge "pure" RPG fan. I've never played Baldur's Gate 2. I've never been involved in old school tabletop RPGs.
I found that such old school fervor was in my younger years, a form of elitism. I remember clearly how one of my neighbors, who was a slightly older kid, would purposely exclude me from his little sessions of Dungeons and Dragons at his house even though he would play Nintendo with me and Street Fighter 2 at the pizza parlor.
It confused me. I thought to myself; Why? Why won't he let me hang out and play this game, when he would happily take my pocket change when we gambled with his personal roulette wheel he got from his dad? Ultimately I deemed him a complete jerk and stopped hanging out with him. My theory is that he felt he was older and hence more intelligent than I was and therefore I wouldn't be able to grasp the complexities of an RPG. In retaliation I found every opportunity to coax the rest of the younger kids on the street to pelt him with pine cones and ambush him with ninja tactics consisting of jumping out of trees and fake assassinations with sticks. Now I know to the sensitive people out there that this seems like classic bullying, except for the fact that I was 10 and he was 12 and had older friends who were even bigger a-holes to me. But anyhow, my point is that it wasn't a thing that had to happen. I wanted to play an RPG with someone who I thought was my friend and he basically rejected me because of his sense of entitlement and purity. I look back on that now and see myself as a dumb kid, but I see parallels to the situation with "hard core" RPG purists and "casual" gamers.
I think back and wonder what if this guy weren't such a little preening brat goon and actually took the time to show me what this RPG business was about. Maybe I would have thought it was boring and immediately lose interest. Maybe I would immediately love it and find a passion for the subculture.
At this point I believe that the more "pure" end of RPGs aren't for everyone. Still, the decision should be made by an individual whether or not they end up on one side or another. I didn't make it through KOTOR when I tried it because I was really only playing it because I was bored and at that time I felt it was taking too long and the gameplay required too much set up and upkeep. As I got older, my tastes started to change. I began to enjoy tactics and strategy. I had more experience, so I knew that success comes from planning and thought of consequence. Depth is about what you put into something. I started to "get" it. I started playing games like Final Fantasy 7 and 8. I was reading the Wheel of Time series. I started picking up games like Dark Alliance and Champions of Norrath. I gave the Fable series a try. Finally I ran into a copy of Origins. It was everything I always wanted in an RPG experience. I made my hero. I set him up on his adventures and lived through them. It was fun. Someone had finally allowed me into the garage and let me play, and it was me.

So then we come to Dragon Age 2. I'm excited to play. If this is anywhere near as good and well crafted as Origins, my money will have been well spent. Except this time, the people running the game realized that they could make a lot of money by selling the genre. So, in their elitist insider minds they thought that all of these dumb noobs need to be sold a product their little console playing minds could actually absorb.
And so it is that once again, the people running the game have decided that I'm too dumb and unsophisticated to grasp the concept of a real RPG. Me and my ilk have to be talked down to like a bunch of 10-year-olds who are learning how to play roulette on some older jerk's dad's makeshift casino set in his dusty den. I wonder why I feel like I'm being cheated out of my pocket change.
The message: Make the game as true to the form as you know how. Maybe I won't like it. But then I'll have the knowledge that this really isn't my thing. The purists will still buy it and probably love it. It' makes them feel exclusive. It makes them feel elite. On the other hand, maybe I'll love it the way it is. I'd get the satisfaction of having played something that is the real deal, and the "true purists" will still have the satisfaction of thinking of me as some noob who never played Baldur's Gate 2 on the PC. And of course they can like the game as well.
You don't improve on the series simply by changing it. You improve on the series by doing EVERYTHING you did in the first game. EVERYTHING. Just more of it. Do that exact same thing, just better. Refine it. You don't just cut out huge components, add others and then paint it up with a different color palate. You improve by adding, not by streamlining. The whole point of streamlining is to make something faster, cheaper, more cost effective. People don't want less for more money. They want MORE. Give them more.
I think it's just crazy to respond to complaints that in Origins the sets looked similar by confining the space even more, and then reuse every single map 6 different times in the game. I think it's crazy to respond to the praise that people heaped on the ability to play several story lines and races and classes, by giving FEWER choices in these regards.
Anyhow to close I would like to paraphrase my 12-year-old nephew regarding popular trends and people who buy in and sell out to them:
"I don't care how popular it is amongst my friends, you're NEVER going to see me wearing skinny jeans or with my hair looking like Justin Beiber. That 'Black and Yellow' song is pretty catchy though. Did you know it's about the Pittsburgh Steelers? I don't even like football."
Love that kid. He played Dark Alliance 2 with me in co-op all the way through, when he was 10. And yes, he prefers Origins to Dragon Age 2.
Sorry for the meandering post. I guess I've been thinking about this a little too much. You've inspired me folks!

Good post. You have a budding writing talent.

I say give us choice BioWare, let us decide. (Douglas' Spartaco sword being wielded)
Quit the hand-holding. Console-players aren't as dumb as you make of it.

Modifié par Shadowbanner, 18 avril 2011 - 01:50 .

[Persephone]

Not that it's my call to make...

But a 12 year old has NO business playing DAII.

[Riknas]

Persephone wrote...

Not that it's my call to make...

But a 12 year old has NO business playing DAII.

Depends on the 12 year old.

[Persephone]

Riknas wrote...

Persephone wrote...

Not that it's my call to make...

But a 12 year old has NO business playing DAII.

Depends on the 12 year old.

No. Just no.

[Dragoonlordz]

Persephone wrote...

And?

Many movies also deal with losing family members or cancer. Not all of them made me tear up. DAII did.

Stop accusing me of lying and kindly refrain from putting words in my mouth. And I saw PLENTY of background, esp. the Lily Killer plotline. And random casualities of war (Sibling) bloody happen. It would be illogical (Though sweet and fluffy and epic....if everyone made it out of Lothering just like that)

>>>can feel the bond of loss with that first loss.

Learn to read.

I never said this is the only game that has this. But this one put me on an emotional rollercoaster like no other.

Do NOT tell me how to feel about a story. Do NOT tell me where I am permitted to feel immersed, moved and emotionally connected.

>>>"This whole one game sucked because I didn't feel one way or this game is epic because it made me feel that way is all personal preference and you lot arguing about this is immature."

"in DA2 if you managed to soak up more than what they designed it for good for you."

Why thank you for your generosity and for the insult all in one package.

>>>Let's throw in a cop out route for those who cannot deal with realism ala running to the Circle to save a possessed psycho brat, never mind the stooooooopid risk!" scenarios ala DAO? (Hyperbole, granted, but it seems necessary these days) No. And I'm glad of it. Do I want DAO's "Use NPCS/Circumstances as mindless puppets" way back? No way!

Heard of irony? So only you are allowed to insult people now? Bravo!

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 18 avril 2011 - 02:10 .

[Shadowbanner]

Yrkoon wrote...

My apologies if someone has already pointed this out...

Shadowbanner wrote...


Nope, it's a direct consequence of BioWare's own making.

I believe BioWare chose to expand its existing fanbase and reach out for casual players (mainstream console). They decided that it was a worthwhile tradeoff to sacrifice a few old grumpy diehard hard-core RPG fans in exchange of appealing to a much larger, younger crowd and in the process make more money, BIG money. (EA approves this paragraph)

Now in principle this, from a corporate strategy point of view, seems a pretty smart move. Heck, even I would buy into it drooling at the expected sales figures and my future annual bonus.

Unfortunetely  (or fortunately, depending on how you look at it)  It's  an even smarter  short term strategy than you're describing.

This "die hard RPG crowd" that you're talking about has, over the years  developed a loyalty to Bioware that is truly unique to the industry.  These people were *guaranteed* sales to  a bioware game... and Laidlaw & co knew that when they sat down to design DA2. 

So basically what you had was a mindset of:  "LOL we can throw all caution to the wind and   take Dragon age towards the COD crowd direction    and tap into that market's fans  and we don't even have to worry about  the financial consequences of alienating our base crowd because they're gonna buy the game anyway... since its got our name on it.

And they were right.  400,000 pre-order sales later,  Laidlaw  is now enjoying some early vindication.


Of course this is a 1 time cash-in.  I doubt the "hard core" rpg crowd will allow themselves to blindly trust bioware again.  they'll need some heavy reassurances

Yup, we'll need reassuraces this time round.

Mine was one of the 400k Signature edition pre-orders you mention. Never again.

No ME3 pre-ordering for me this time (first time I won't pre-order a BioWare game). I'll ignore what professional reviewers will write (the Official Xbox magazine which gave it a glowing 9/10) and read other gamer's reviews in forums this time.

Once bitten, twice shy

[gastovski]

pyramid quotes.. keep going guys

[Shadowbanner]

Boiny Bunny wrote...

No, I'm simply saying that DA:O had a great deal of choices which had vast storyline impacts, and these were acknowledged.  I have no intention of debating the medium through which those impacts were depicted.

DA2 has no choices, not a single one, which has a 'vast' storyline impact.  At the end of the game, DA2 has nothing to acknowledge.  You got that 'special job' or ran off into the hills.  Then shortly after, you dissapeared.  The end.  That's it.

My point too.

Lack of real choices, as in deeply impacting the storyline; not merely cosmetic or facade choices.

Whereas DA:O had them abundantly, DA2 is devoid of them.

Modifié par Shadowbanner, 18 avril 2011 - 02:13 .

[upsettingshorts]

Please list these DAO choices that had vast storyline impact.

I've clocked 400 hours in that game, and I don't recall them.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 18 avril 2011 - 02:16 .

[Persephone]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

Persephone wrote...

And?

Many movies also deal with losing family members or cancer. Not all of them made me tear up. DAII did.

Stop accusing me of lying and kindly refrain from putting words in my mouth. And I saw PLENTY of background, esp. the Lily Killer plotline. And random casualities of war (Sibling) bloody happen. It would be illogical (Though sweet and fluffy and epic....if everyone made it out of Lothering just like that)

>>>can feel the bond of loss with that first loss.

Learn to read.

I never said this is the only game that has this. But this one put me on an emotional rollercoaster like no other.

Do NOT tell me how to feel about a story. Do NOT tell me where I am permitted to feel immersed, moved and emotionally connected.

>>>"This whole one game sucked because I didn't feel one way or this game is epic because it made me feel that way is all personal preference and you lot arguing about this is immature."

"in DA2 if you managed to soak up more than what they designed it for good for you."

Why thank you for your generosity and for the insult all in one package.

>>>Let's throw in a cop out route for those who cannot deal with realism ala running to the Circle to save a possessed psycho brat, never mind the stooooooopid risk!" scenarios ala DAO? (Hyperbole, granted, but it seems necessary these days) No. And I'm glad of it. Do I want DAO's "Use NPCS/Circumstances as mindless puppets" way back? No way!

Heard of irony? So only you are allowed to insult people now? Bravo!

The first loss moved me too. I actually DID lose a sister in real life. Rather rapidly too. She fell over into a coma as we were playing. I never saw her again and 4 days later my parents told me she was gone. And like Hawke, I never got a funeral either. (My parents kept me from going)

I have already replied to the second quote.

Oh, wow, I used hyperbole. Something you and others toss at me 24/7. But when its in defense of DAII, it's a problem?

[Persephone]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Please list these DAO choices that had vast storyline impact.

I've clocked 400 hours in that game, and I don't recall them.

Neither do I, to be honest.

[Dragoonlordz]

Shadowbanner wrote...

Yup, we'll need reassuraces this time round.

Mine was one of the 400k Signature edition pre-orders you mention. Never again.

No ME3 pre-ordering for me this time (first time I won't pre-order a BioWare game). I'll ignore what professional reviewers will write (the Official Xbox magazine which gave it a glowing 9/10) and read other gamer's reviews in forums this time.

Once bitten, twice shy

I am going to wait till after seen what will be how they will tackle the game mechanics and what they will or wont put in it but so far from the forums section of what is and what want to put in, my hopes are high enough that in the end will be great product. Bolstered by the fact they have a different team making it to DA2.

[Rockpopple]

Your entire post is predicated on the notion that everyone that likes DA II is a teenaged console player that likes action games, and everyone that "feels betrayed" is an over 30 year old "discerning player"

Your entire post is predicated on a big steaming pile of bullpucky.

Modifié par Rockpopple, 18 avril 2011 - 02:23 .

[Merci357]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Please list these DAO choices that had vast storyline impact.

I've clocked 400 hours in that game, and I don't recall them.

I guess vast impact on the story sliders after you finished the game, not the game itself.

[Dragoonlordz]

Persephone wrote...

Oh, wow, I used hyperbole. Something you and others toss at me 24/7. But when its in defense of DAII, it's a problem?

You attitude is a problem, you think it's alright for you to do it but noone else. You use it against others even before they have done so to you. My post was in reply to your initial comments not yours in reply to mine. You therefore started it and are the cuase.

[Shadowbanner]

LeBurns wrote...

Well a lengthy post and well put together.  It makes some general assuptions of course and there are those here that will quickly point out that they are exactly the opposit of what you assumed, but honestly you could say the sky is blue here and someone would want to argue that it's actually Cobalt blue or something else.  But I agree that your assumptions are generally correct.

I hate the fact that you wasted your time to write it however, since no one of any importance will read it or acknowledge any of it as valid.

In the mean time I'll just start up another character for DA:O.  I've been roleplaying them a lot lately and having a lot of fun while doing it.

Thanks, may well be the case.

But if we remain silent we have only ourselves to blame.

We must voice or discontent. If we're lucky someone may take aboard what's been voiced in this and many other threads not only in this forum or in English language alone.

I think the dire sales figures will make them recapacitate on what went wrong.

BioWare is really at a crossroads because if it repeats this mistake again with another release, say ME3 or DA3, many fans will abandon it = less money.

Shareholders couldn't care less if Hawke is gay, bi or straight. The only language they understand is money.

If BioWare isn't raking in, there'll be problems and corporate restructuring of not-so key "assets".

Modifié par Shadowbanner, 18 avril 2011 - 03:01 .

[Persephone]

Merci357 wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Please list these DAO choices that had vast storyline impact.

I've clocked 400 hours in that game, and I don't recall them.

I guess vast impact on the story sliders after you finished the game, not the game itself.

Never mind that most of them were bugged/wouldn't trigger. (I.E. City Elf boon)

[Tirigon]

Persephone wrote...

Riknas wrote...

Persephone wrote...

Not that it's my call to make...

But a 12 year old has NO business playing DAII.

Depends on the 12 year old.

No. Just no.

I know plenty of 12 year olds who are more intelligent and "mature" than most of the posters in this forums seem to be, and plenty of adults who are brainless f*cktards.

Of course, the same is true the other way round.

Don´t judge people based on their age.

[Dragoonlordz]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Please list these DAO choices that had vast storyline impact.

I've clocked 400 hours in that game, and I don't recall them.

I'm still waiting on your list first the one you promised. As asked you for in the other thread around 10-15 hours ago regarding how DA2 has less bugs/glitches than DAO.

[Edli]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Please list these DAO choices that had vast storyline impact.

I've clocked 400 hours in that game, and I don't recall them.

Choosing the ruler of Orzamar or the fate of the tower of magi to name a few.

[Persephone]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

Persephone wrote...

Oh, wow, I used hyperbole. Something you and others toss at me 24/7. But when its in defense of DAII, it's a problem?

You attitude is a problem, you think it's alright for you to do it but noone else. You use it against others even before they have done so to you. My post was in reply to your initial comments not yours in reply to mine. You therefore started it and are the cuase.

I've been taking the hyperbole for weeks now. I've been belittled, insulted and biatched at for the cardinal sin of loving a game. Yes, I got snippy there. I usually am way more laid back and you know that. But that usually got me trampled on or being called a brainless fangurl who'd buy anything with the Bioware logo on it. I've had enough. Granted, I was very angry when I posted that and anger is not a good motivation. But hey, I'm only human and restraint goes only so far, esp. when one receives little but snippy, condescending rudeness and childish labels for weeks. How about going through this thread and looking up what caused me to use hyperbole for once?

I'm sorry if I offended you, but I do believe that my reaction is understandable.

[Persephone]

Edli wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Please list these DAO choices that had vast storyline impact.

I've clocked 400 hours in that game, and I don't recall them.

Choosing the ruler of Orzamar or the fate of the tower of magi to name a few.

How does that have storyline impact again? Both guys ask you to do pretty much the same stuff.

And the Circle only changes the pixel models supporting you in the final battle.

Or are you talking about the vast impact of Epilogue Sliders?