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[upsettingshorts]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

I'm still waiting on your list first the one you promised. As asked you for in the other thread around 10-15 hours ago regarding how DA2 has less bugs/glitches than DAO.

Wait, that wasn't what I claimed at all.  I was speaking of features, design decisions, and so on.  Bugs and glitches are... bugs and glitches.   I'll give you a pro and con though for pointing out that I did make a similar promise.

DA2 pro & con:  The concept of a single region is a good one, and Kirkwall - despite the indefensible arguments that it is generic looking - has its own memorable and unique architectural style and layout.  The fact that an area of the game called "Darktown" can have a stunning view of the harbor approach, or that you can look down from near Hubert's stall and see the Gallows is fantastic.  The problem is of course the main problem DA2 has in general:  Gameplay and story segregation.  The city is supposedly filled with refugees to the extent they cannot hold more, but we barely see them.  Templars keep a tight leash on the city, but mages and magic use are common even in public streets - by the protagonist and his/her party and others.  Vendors claim to have many goods for sale, but their stalls are empty.  DA2's issues to me stem from ambitious concepts - such as say, Kirkwall itself - that failed to be executed optimally.  However, I will take that every time over the well executed but couldn't-be-more-bland and unambitious areas like Denerim or Lothering or Redcliffe. 

Edli wrote...

Choosing the ruler of Orzamar or the fate of the tower of magi to name a few.

The ruler of Orzammar I'll give you - with a cavaet, the fate of the Circle isn't as big as it seems - In Exile put it well in another thread a little while ago so I'll just link to his post for that one.

The problem with the ruler of Orzammar decision is that we only know the result because of an epilogue card that tells us, something I find ultimately unsatisfying.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 18 avril 2011 - 02:34 .

[Persephone]

Tirigon wrote...

Persephone wrote...

Riknas wrote...

Persephone wrote...

Not that it's my call to make...

But a 12 year old has NO business playing DAII.

Depends on the 12 year old.

No. Just no.

I know plenty of 12 year olds who are more intelligent and "mature" than most of the posters in this forums seem to be, and plenty of adults who are brainless f*cktards.

Of course, the same is true the other way round.

Don´t judge people based on their age.

I'm not judging them on their age.

I simply believe that CHILDREN should not be playing a game adressing the issues of rape, serial murderers, mental illness, fanaticism, abuse, domestic violence etc.

[Shadowbanner]

Captain Sassy Pants wrote...

abaris wrote...

Shadowbanner wrote...


I believe BioWare chose to expand its existing fanbase and reach out for casual players (consol-like). They decided that it was a worthwhile tradeoff to sacrifice a few old grumpy diehard hard-core RPG fans in exchange of appealing to a much larger, younger crowd and in the process make more money. (EA approves this paragraph)

And if that's true, its a crucial mistake, probably made by suits, backed up by some expensive surveys.

But ask yourself this: If you're a fan of Mozart, would you buy a Kenny Rogers CD? Or Kenny Rogers doing Mozart?

That's what it comes to. Kenny Rogers fans probably don't want him to sing Papageno and I guess opera fans won't want to listen to Kenny Rogers singing Papageno either.

And that's what they try just now. You can't please both sides with one strike.

I agree with this.

My first foray into "RPG"s was, ahem, the original Diablo. I loved that game then, and I still love it now (still play it every few months).

Then Baldur's Gate came out. My friend and I bought it solely because the view perspective was like Diablo's, so we figured it would be another Diablo-type game. We were wrong, but we loved it for what it was, and we didn't hate it based on what we had hoped it would be. It opened me up to a new sub-genre I had never tried before.

I love hack-n-slash "RPG"s like Diablo (though, similar to DA2, I do not like the direction Diablo 3 has taken and I refuse to buy it). I also love more "complex" games like the Baldur's Gate series. 

That doesn't mean that I want the two to mix. I play each for what they are.

Exactly. Each to his own.

If I want some mind-numbing brainless hack-n-slash I'll pick up Dungeon Siege. It's like a burger, fast, direct, straight to the point. Food for the body.

When I feel I want more of an intellectual treat I pick up a BioWare. The carefully and lovingly crafted aftertaste, the deep plots, the detailed-rich environments. Delicious. Food for the mind & soul.

Eating burgers is fine, but from time to time you fancy tasting more elaborate and refined delicacies; and that's when BioWare usually came in.

Now BioWare has served me a portion of nouveau cuisine which oddly enough looks like a burger, feels like a burger and lo and behold even tastes like one, but at a pricetag of 60 USD plus a day-one 7 USD DLC for what they claim is not actually an 8 dollar burger, but an underrated and consumer-wide misunderstood innovative ground-breaking artistic delicatessen for which my unrefined palate apparently is pitifully unprepared, or so I'm being told by Laidlaw whilst he's busy shoving it down my mouth with a loud KA-CHING!

Man, to me it honestly feels like my regular 8 dollar burger although being mis-sold for 67 USD with a pat on the back and a wide grin 'cause I'm a regular customer of the house. Smokes and mirrors?

You know, what would I know? I'm only a dumb old geezer. I apparently need all the luv (sic), hand-holding and dumbed-down 'cause my brain plays on my xbox.

Emperor's new clothes anyone?

Modifié par Shadowbanner, 18 avril 2011 - 02:52 .

[Edli]

Persephone wrote...

Edli wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Please list these DAO choices that had vast storyline impact.

I've clocked 400 hours in that game, and I don't recall them.

Choosing the ruler of Orzamar or the fate of the tower of magi to name a few.

How does that have storyline impact again? Both guys ask you to do pretty much the same stuff.

And the Circle only changes the pixel models supporting you in the final battle.

Or are you talking about the vast impact of Epilogue Sliders?

Don't get it what you're trying to say. DA:O was not only about the archdemon. If it was then players would just rush to the end and kill him. There were a lot of other things going on, the whole gather armies and kill archdemon in the end served only as a backround. Yeah deciding who would rule one of the biggest cultures in Thedas it's a pretty big deal isn't it? I didn't even touch the landsmeet where you choose another king. 

[Persephone]

Edli wrote...

Persephone wrote...

Edli wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Please list these DAO choices that had vast storyline impact.

I've clocked 400 hours in that game, and I don't recall them.

Choosing the ruler of Orzamar or the fate of the tower of magi to name a few.

How does that have storyline impact again? Both guys ask you to do pretty much the same stuff.

And the Circle only changes the pixel models supporting you in the final battle.

Or are you talking about the vast impact of Epilogue Sliders?

Don't get it what you're trying to say. DA:O was not only about the archdemon. If it was then players would just rush to the end and kill him. There were a lot of other things going on, the whole gather armies and kill archdemon in the end served only as a backround. Yeah deciding who would rule one of the biggest cultures in Thedas it's a pretty big deal isn't it? I didn't even touch the landsmeet where you choose another king. 

No it isn't, as it makes zero difference in the game itself.

As for the Landsmeet...

Badly written and implausible. Never mind that I usually leave the Queen in her office. (I prefer competent rulers) But even that changes little, as the lady even gives the SAME speech Alistair would.

Sloppy, just sloppy.

[upsettingshorts]

Edli wrote...

Don't get it what you're trying to say.

That if you think epilogue sliders are unsatisfying and/or minor, then anything revealed about the consequences of your actions through them are basically not even part of the game, but something tacked on to give the illusion of closure.

I could see lots of things happening as a result of the decisions Hawke made in Dragon Age 2, that epilogue cards aren't there to tell us - such as for example, the fate of Feynreil - is a double edged sword.  We can either assume that ultimately nothing that we did matters, or we can assume that we simply do not know what impact those decisions have yet.  At this point, either position is reasonable.  Granted, considering how even the largest decisions in DA:O had very little impact on the sequel, a case could be made that long term plot flag impacts are going to be the exception anyway.

[Tirigon]

Persephone wrote...

I'm not judging them on their age.

I simply believe that CHILDREN should not be playing a game adressing the issues of rape, serial murderers, mental illness, fanaticism, abuse, domestic violence etc.

Yes you do 


Anyways, as I said, some children can handle it, while some adults can´t. Leave it to them to decide.

And besides, in the way DA2 handles it they won´t even notice anyways. Most people play like

A  A A A A A A A A A A A A
FINALLY!!!! AWESOME!!!!
[ENEMIES ASPLODE]

OH DAMN DIALOGUE.... [CLICK IT AWAY]

YAY ENEMIES TO ASPLODE!!!!

A A A A A A A A ...........................

Repeat ad nauseam....

[Persephone]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Edli wrote...

Don't get it what you're trying to say.

That if you think epilogue sliders are unsatisfying and/or minor, then anything revealed about the consequences of your actions through them are basically not even part of the game, but something tacked on to give the illusion of closure.

I could see lots of things happening as a result of the decisions Hawke made in Dragon Age 2, that epilogue cards aren't there to tell us - such as for example, the fate of Feynreil - is a double edged sword.  We can either assume that ultimately nothing that we did matters, or we can assume that we simply do not know what impact those decisions have yet.  At this point, either position is reasonable.  Granted, considering how even the largest decisions in DA:O had very little impact on the sequel, a case could be made that long term plot flag impacts are going to be the exception anyway.

Well, what happened in Ferelden isn't essential to Kirkwall in many ways other than the end of the Blight.

The *Spoiler* that encompasses all of Thedas at the end of DAII better not be ignored. I guess ME3 will be an indicator of what to expect. (As all of Shep's decisions will find their consequences there. Or so Bioware told us.)

[upsettingshorts]

Well the end of DA2 produces more or less the same worldstate regardless of which side Hawke takes in that initial confrontation. Who wins the first battle of a major conflict doesn't have to determine much other than the fact a conflict exists.

[Persephone]

Tirigon wrote...

Persephone wrote...

I'm not judging them on their age.

I simply believe that CHILDREN should not be playing a game adressing the issues of rape, serial murderers, mental illness, fanaticism, abuse, domestic violence etc.

Yes you do 


Anyways, as I said, some children can handle it, while some adults can´t. Leave it to them to decide.

And besides, in the way DA2 handles it they won´t even notice anyways. Most people play like

A  A A A A A A A A A A A A
FINALLY!!!! AWESOME!!!!
[ENEMIES ASPLODE]

OH DAMN DIALOGUE.... [CLICK IT AWAY]

YAY ENEMIES TO ASPLODE!!!!

A A A A A A A A ...........................

Repeat ad nauseam....

By that logic, 12 year olds might as well watch porn. YEESH.

And speak for yourself. I doubt you know "most people", so you are in no position to make such insulting claims.

[Edli]

Persephone wrote...

No it isn't, as it makes zero difference in the game itself.

As for the Landsmeet...

Badly written and implausible. Never mind that I usually leave the Queen in her office. (I prefer competent rulers) But even that changes little, as the lady even gives the SAME speech Alistair would.

Sloppy, just sloppy.

Zero difference in the game itself? What do you mean by that? Picked a ruler, made a difference. What do you expect.

What about the deal you make with Branka. What about destroying the ashes of one of the most revered figures in Thedas. Helping or not Redcliffe village. Cmon now, there are a lot of stories been told in DA:O, is not everything about the end game.

[upsettingshorts]

Edli wrote...

Cmon now, there are a lot of stories been told in DA2, is not everything about the end game.

I normally hate going with "fixed" but why not apply the same standard to the sequel?  DA2 is filled with just that, stories.  That the endgame is more or less the same regardless is the same issue DAO had.  

The difference is DA2 lacks epilogue cards.

[Zeulon]

Edli wrote...

Persephone wrote...

Edli wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Please list these DAO choices that had vast storyline impact.

I've clocked 400 hours in that game, and I don't recall them.

Choosing the ruler of Orzamar or the fate of the tower of magi to name a few.

How does that have storyline impact again? Both guys ask you to do pretty much the same stuff.

And the Circle only changes the pixel models supporting you in the final battle.

Or are you talking about the vast impact of Epilogue Sliders?

Don't get it what you're trying to say. DA:O was not only about the archdemon. If it was then players would just rush to the end and kill him. There were a lot of other things going on, the whole gather armies and kill archdemon in the end served only as a backround. Yeah deciding who would rule one of the biggest cultures in Thedas it's a pretty big deal isn't it? I didn't even touch the landsmeet where you choose another king. 

This. DA was about more about the jorney then reaching the goal, reducing DA to warden kills the archdemon is more than a bit unfair.
Concerning choices:
The impact of your choices will always be quiet limited, especialy in big budget productions, but how you mask that is a a diffrent story. DA did that quiet well by letting you make such desicions at the end of an sub-plot when the implications for the rest of the game were not  so big, but you still had the feeling you actually changed something. DA2 doesn´t only lack this kind of "choice system", it activly works against the choices you could make (best served cold:?) or doesn´t give an option when clearly should have.

[Persephone]

Edli wrote...

Persephone wrote...

No it isn't, as it makes zero difference in the game itself.

As for the Landsmeet...

Badly written and implausible. Never mind that I usually leave the Queen in her office. (I prefer competent rulers) But even that changes little, as the lady even gives the SAME speech Alistair would.

Sloppy, just sloppy.

Zero difference in the game itself? What do you mean by that? Picked a ruler, made a difference. What do you expect.

What about the deal you make with Branka. What about destroying the ashes of one of the most revered figures in Thedas. Helping or not Redcliffe village. Cmon now, there are a lot of stories been told in DA:O, is not everything about the end game.

All of these things (98% are detailed in the epilogue slides. The supposed consequences) Not in the game itself. The differences are minor at best.

[upsettingshorts]

Zeulon wrote...

 DA2 doesn´t only lack this kind of "choice system", it activly works against the choices you could make (best served cold) or doesn´t give an option when clearly should have.

It does give options, in terms of your "why."  Varric is talking about history when he's being interrogated by Cassandra.  Hawke did try to assist a Sarebaas.  This happened, it is a matter of history.  Why and how he/she went about it is what the player gets to decide.  In DAO, no-one cares about the why because there's a boring big bad to kill.  

[Shadowbanner]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Please list these DAO choices that had vast storyline impact.

I've clocked 400 hours in that game, and I don't recall them.

If you've followed this thread someone posted a link on page 12 or 13 to all of them.

[Edli]

Persephone wrote...

Edli wrote...

Persephone wrote...

No it isn't, as it makes zero difference in the game itself.

As for the Landsmeet...

Badly written and implausible. Never mind that I usually leave the Queen in her office. (I prefer competent rulers) But even that changes little, as the lady even gives the SAME speech Alistair would.

Sloppy, just sloppy.

Zero difference in the game itself? What do you mean by that? Picked a ruler, made a difference. What do you expect.

What about the deal you make with Branka. What about destroying the ashes of one of the most revered figures in Thedas. Helping or not Redcliffe village. Cmon now, there are a lot of stories been told in DA:O, is not everything about the end game.

All of these things (98% are detailed in the epilogue slides. The supposed consequences) Not in the game itself. The differences are minor at best.

Well you can't expect to see some consequences right away because it's not a story happening in a 7 years life span. That's obvious but still you can see many consequences right away. Like the Redcliffe village for example.

[Persephone]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Zeulon wrote...

 DA2 doesn´t only lack this kind of "choice system", it activly works against the choices you could make (best served cold) or doesn´t give an option when clearly should have.

It does give options, in terms of your "why."  Varric is talking about history when he's being interrogated by Cassandra.  Hawke did try to assist a Sarebaas.  This happened, it is a matter of history.  Why and how he/she went about it is what the player gets to decide.  In DAO, no-one cares about the why because there's a boring big bad to kill.  

But killing ze big dragon was so awzum and epic and heroic......

[Tirigon]

Persephone wrote...

By that logic, 12 year olds might as well watch porn. YEESH.

For all I care they can.

As far as I know, some actually DO.
According to some stupid study (which is probably made up though, like all^^) the average age for the first time sex is (in Germany) 14 for girls. Why shouldn´t they see some "instruction" before:innocent:

And speak for yourself. I doubt you know "most people", so you are in no position to make such insulting claims.

It´s not insulting, and I claimed it because that´s how BioWare want their game to be played according to their ads.....

[Rockpopple]

According to BioWare's ads, they wanted people to play Dragon Age II by skipping the dialogue and main story portions of the game to get straight to the action?

Please direct me to any such ad that even nears that insinuation. I'll be waiting right over there.

From the school of "Making Stuff Up, for Fun and Profit"

Edit: And here comes Persephone with her Elbow From the Sky. What's good for the goose...

Modifié par Rockpopple, 18 avril 2011 - 03:00 .

[Persephone]

Tirigon wrote...

Persephone wrote...

By that logic, 12 year olds might as well watch porn. YEESH.

For all I care they can.

As far as I know, some actually DO.
According to some stupid study (which is probably made up though, like all^^) the average age for the first time sex is (in Germany) 14 for girls. Why shouldn´t they see some "instruction" before:innocent:

And speak for yourself. I doubt you know "most people", so you are in no position to make such insulting claims.

It´s not insulting, and I claimed it because that´s how BioWare want their game to be played according to their ads.....

Right, because porn is a wonderful instruction...you know what...let's drop this. Yech.

I'll claim the same then, based on DAO's "This is the new sh*t" violence trailer.

How does that work out for ya? Since DAO is all sacred and holy?

[upsettingshorts]

Shadowbanner wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Please list these DAO choices that had vast storyline impact.

I've clocked 400 hours in that game, and I don't recall them.

If you've followed this thread someone posted a link on page 12 or 13 to all of them.

If you've followed my posts, I don't give a damn about stuff put in epilogue cards.  

[TJSolo]

Persephone wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Zeulon wrote...

 DA2 doesn´t only lack this kind of "choice system", it activly works against the choices you could make (best served cold) or doesn´t give an option when clearly should have.

It does give options, in terms of your "why."  Varric is talking about history when he's being interrogated by Cassandra.  Hawke did try to assist a Sarebaas.  This happened, it is a matter of history.  Why and how he/she went about it is what the player gets to decide.  In DAO, no-one cares about the why because there's a boring big bad to kill.  

But killing ze big dragon was so awzum and epic and heroic......

I got an achievement for killing big dragons on both games, looks awesome to me.

[Persephone]

TJSolo wrote...

Persephone wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Zeulon wrote...

 DA2 doesn´t only lack this kind of "choice system", it activly works against the choices you could make (best served cold) or doesn´t give an option when clearly should have.

It does give options, in terms of your "why."  Varric is talking about history when he's being interrogated by Cassandra.  Hawke did try to assist a Sarebaas.  This happened, it is a matter of history.  Why and how he/she went about it is what the player gets to decide.  In DAO, no-one cares about the why because there's a boring big bad to kill.  

But killing ze big dragon was so awzum and epic and heroic......

I got an achievement for killing big dragons on both games, looks awesome to me.

Couldn't care less about killing dragons in either game. That was old when BG came out. (And BG did it badly too)

[Persephone]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Shadowbanner wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Please list these DAO choices that had vast storyline impact.

I've clocked 400 hours in that game, and I don't recall them.

If you've followed this thread someone posted a link on page 12 or 13 to all of them.

If you've followed my posts, I don't give a damn about stuff put in epilogue cards.  

But they are so meaningful and deep and....