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[TJSolo]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Shadowbanner wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Please list these DAO choices that had vast storyline impact.

I've clocked 400 hours in that game, and I don't recall them.

If you've followed this thread someone posted a link on page 12 or 13 to all of them.

If you've followed my posts, I don't give a damn about stuff put in epilogue cards.  

Of course you don't, that is the easiest way to shrug off the comments from others that do give a damn about more closure than the hero walking off in the sunset.

[Tirigon]

Persephone wrote...

Right, because porn is a wonderful instruction...you know what...let's drop this. Yech.

No it´s not, imo.
But my point is, basically, that it´s not your business to judge.
Just because you (and for the sake of my reputation, me too:police:) dislike something this doesn´t mae it objectively true.

I'll claim the same then, based on DAO's "This is the new sh*t" violence trailer.

How does that work out for ya? Since DAO is all sacred and holy?

This is the new sh!t was good song imo, though i´m not really a manson fan.

And violence in my game? As long as it looks nice I don´t have a problem with it. I quite liked the dismemberments of DAO´s finishing moves.

[ChickenDownUnder]

One day, I'd like to play an rpg where you have to befriend a dragon instead of killing one, having to save it from all the insane adventurers that just want to kill your new giant buddy. Puff the Magic Dragon style.

EDITED: Took awhile, but remembered the proper name for it; Pete's Dragon. Was thinking wrong magical kid's friendly dragon.

Modifié par ChickenDownUnder, 18 avril 2011 - 04:17 .

[upsettingshorts]

TJSolo wrote...

Of course you don't, that is the easiest way to shrug off the comments from others that do give a damn about more closure than the hero walking off in the sunset.

What's your point?  That shrugging off something as minor and impactless as the epilogue cards is easy?  Because it sure is.  

And people can shrug off my point that "we don't know what impact our actions in DA2 had because there are no epilogue cards to spoon feed us" just the same.  

Shrugging off is what these forums do, actual conversations are rare.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 18 avril 2011 - 03:12 .

[Persephone]

ChickenDownUnder wrote...

One day, I'd like to play an rpg where you have to befriend a dragon instead of killing one, having to save it from all the insane adventurers that just want to kill your new giant buddy. Puff the Magic Dragon style.

BG2 had a little plot like that......

[Dragoonlordz]

Persephone wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Zeulon wrote...

 DA2 doesn´t only lack this kind of "choice system", it activly works against the choices you could make (best served cold) or doesn´t give an option when clearly should have.

It does give options, in terms of your "why."  Varric is talking about history when he's being interrogated by Cassandra.  Hawke did try to assist a Sarebaas.  This happened, it is a matter of history.  Why and how he/she went about it is what the player gets to decide.  In DAO, no-one cares about the why because there's a boring big bad to kill.  

But killing ze big dragon was so awzum and epic and heroic......

There you go again, stop belittling people if don't like them doing it to you. DA2 had no more epic a story than DAO. If the warden hadn't stopped the blight there probably would not even be a Kirkwall where the two sides were busy having hissy fits with each other let alone there would have been no Anders to kick the ending off at all. Hawkes journey wouldn't have left Lothering and there would be no Hero of Kirkwall. So do not say DAO had little to no impact on DA2 when the simple fact is there would be no DA2 if DAO's storyline of the blight never took place. The Archdemon is no less epic a boss than some chick with a sword.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 18 avril 2011 - 03:29 .

[ChickenDownUnder]

Persephone wrote...

ChickenDownUnder wrote...

One day, I'd like to play an rpg where you have to befriend a dragon instead of killing one, having to save it from all the insane adventurers that just want to kill your new giant buddy. Puff the Magic Dragon style.

BG2 had a little plot like that......

Lies. Pure lies!

Modifié par ChickenDownUnder, 18 avril 2011 - 04:15 .

[Zeulon]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Zeulon wrote...

 DA2 doesn´t only lack this kind of "choice system", it activly works against the choices you could make (best served cold) or doesn´t give an option when clearly should have.

It does give options, in terms of your "why."  Varric is talking about history when he's being interrogated by Cassandra.  Hawke did try to assist a Sarebaas.  This happened, it is a matter of history.  Why and how he/she went about it is what the player gets to decide.  In DAO, no-one cares about the why because there's a boring big bad to kill.  

Best served cold isnt the questline concerning the qnari mage, it is the quest Orsino give you in act 3. But never the less most of DAO hadn´t anything to the archdemon, it is a mere excuse for getting involved in all those subplots, which themself can be shaped by the player far more then anything in DA2. Making hte choices about motivation and the rest part of "history" isn´t only a bad concept i itself but also bit illogical given that motivation should also be part of history.

[naledgeborn]

At OP: I'm a 22 year old married man. I listen to independant Hip Hop.  I like old school RPGs and I game on both PS3 and PC. So which group am I in 1 or 2? 

The way I see it, BW is trying to bring in new fans at the expense of old ones instead of making a patiently crafted game that caters to the older crowd while reintoducing the RPG to my button mashing peers.

I like the old way better. It's tough to balance complexity with simplicity and the RPG vets got water down Kool Aide instead of vintage wine. The new kids might think Kool Aide is the sh*t but vets know better. Why do I say this.... well because they're vets and played RPGs since D&D, Zelda, and Gaia.

That said RPGs don't have to be an overcomplex borefest that only a mathmetician would understand the game mechanics. But DA2 failed there too. Why have attributes if there's no reason to dump points into 6/8 of them. It was an action game disguised as an RPG.

TL, DR

Old folks want "vintage wine" (DA:O), We got "Kool Aide" because of the new guys (DA2). If they made 100% "grape juice" I think both crowds would've been happy.
 

[upsettingshorts]

Zeulon wrote...

Best served cold isnt the questline concerning the qnari mage, it is the quest Orsino give you in act 3.

I know, but it's a good example of a but thou must in DA2.  Especially since given its context in Act 1, it doesn't seem like something that Hawke ought to have to do.

Zeulon wrote...

Making hte choices about motivation and the rest part of "history" isn´t only a bad concept i itself but also bit illogical given that motivation should also be part of history.

It is, and that's what Cassandra uncovers and Varric describes.  It's the whole point of the game:  "Who is the Champion of Kirkwall?"  Not "What did the Champion of Kirkwall do?"

[TJSolo]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

TJSolo wrote...

Of course you don't, that is the easiest way to shrug off the comments from others that do give a damn about more closure than the hero walking off in the sunset.

What's your point?  That shrugging off something as minor and impactless as the epilogue cards is easy?  Because it sure is.  

And people can shrug off my point that "we don't know what impact our actions in DA2 had because there are no epilogue cards to spoon feed us" just the same.  

Shrugging off is what these forums do, actual conversations are rare.

In truth I am still trying to find my point but until then it seems to me that you would rather bask in the ignorance of future conseqeuences the DA2 story then have a bit of information from an epilogue.

[upsettingshorts]

TJSolo wrote...

In truth I am still trying to find my point but until then it seems to me that you would rather bask in the ignorance of future conseqeuences the DA2 story then have a bit of information from an epilogue.

"Bask in the ignorance" is a good way to shrug off "enjoy the ambiguity." 

Closure can break characters, see DA:A.  

[Zeulon]

Persephone wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Zeulon wrote...

 DA2 doesn´t only lack this kind of "choice system", it activly works against the choices you could make (best served cold) or doesn´t give an option when clearly should have.

It does give options, in terms of your "why."  Varric is talking about history when he's being interrogated by Cassandra.  Hawke did try to assist a Sarebaas.  This happened, it is a matter of history.  Why and how he/she went about it is what the player gets to decide.  In DAO, no-one cares about the why because there's a boring big bad to kill.  

But killing ze big dragon was so awzum and epic and heroic......

Accumulating money to solve the main quest (getting even more money). A complete new aproach to quest design in rpg.

Killing/defying some big threat, saving the world/country/city  and get some title. Wow what a daring new plot element.

Killing more boss monster, mostly for the sake of a climax and at least some closure. Never had a game done this before.

Truely DA2 is uniqu pice of art and testament of the human imagination.

Modifié par Zeulon, 18 avril 2011 - 03:33 .

[upsettingshorts]

That's not really what I meant. I meant that because the enemy was so very big and so very bad that ultimately little else mattered. Everything was colored by the very real notion that the Archdemon had to be dealt with.

[Zeulon]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Zeulon wrote...

Best served cold isnt the questline concerning the qnari mage, it is the quest Orsino give you in act 3.

I know, but it's a good example of a but thou must in DA2.  Especially since given its context in Act 1, it doesn't seem like something that Hawke ought to have to do.

Zeulon wrote...

Making hte choices about motivation and the rest part of "history" isn´t only a bad concept i itself but also bit illogical given that motivation should also be part of history.

It is, and that's what Cassandra uncovers and Varric describes.  It's the whole point of the game:  "Who is the Champion of Kirkwall?"  Not "What did the Champion of Kirkwall do?"

Is Cassandraw interviewing Varic because she already knew all the events and just wanted to uncover Hawke´s motivation, is she somekind of historian? What kind of relevance does this information have, especialy when you consider how small a factor Hawke actually is. Somethng she should already know.

[TJSolo]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

TJSolo wrote...

In truth I am still trying to find my point but until then it seems to me that you would rather bask in the ignorance of future conseqeuences the DA2 story then have a bit of information from an epilogue.

"Bask in the ignorance" is a good way to shrug off "enjoy the ambiguity." 

Closure can break characters, see DA:A.  

It is not the closure that break characters, it's the writers. See DA2.

[upsettingshorts]

Zeulon wrote...

Is Cassandraw interviewing Varic because she already knew all the events and just wanted to uncover Hawke´s motivation, is she somekind of historian?

She's a Seeker who wants to know where he is.  Varric doesn't know.  She concludes that learning more about the kind of person he is would help uncover his location, and given her initial impression - that Hawke (either is or with an apostate) arrived in Kirkwall with other Fereldans to undermine and destabilize the region - the truth about Hawke's motivations came as a shock to her. 

The reason she's looking for Hawke is left sort of ambiguous, but it is because he/she was there and holds sway with (group they sided with) and could still - as Varric says - potentially prevent the entire continent from spiraling further into chaos. 

Zeulon wrote...

What kind of relevance does this information have, especialy when you consider how small a factor Hawke actually is. Somethng she should already know.

Hawke has tremendous relevance.  Whether or not he/she is ultimately overcome by events does not change that. 

TJSolo wrote...

It is not the closure that break characters, it's the writers. See DA2.

That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

"It's not ingredients that make the entree, it's the chef.  See hamburger."

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 18 avril 2011 - 03:51 .

[Zeulon]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

That's not really what I meant. I meant that because the enemy was so very big and so very bad that ultimately little else mattered. Everything was colored by the very real notion that the Archdemon had to be dealt with.

Yes. Thats the mainplot of DA wasn´t meant to be the point of the game but the framework that held all the subplots together. Does the treat of the blight eclipse the rest of the plot? I dare say the contrary is the case case, blight played a far too small role, to me it seemed never as prominent or treatening as it was supposed to be(muchlike the Collectors in ME2, similiar story structure by the way.).

[upsettingshorts]

And if you can grasp that nuance of both DAO and ME2's story structure, then I really don't understand what your issues would be with DA2's narrative.

[Zeulon]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Zeulon wrote...

Is Cassandraw interviewing Varic because she already knew all the events and just wanted to uncover Hawke´s motivation, is she somekind of historian?

She's a Seeker who wants to know where he is.  Varric doesn't know.  She concludes that learning more about the kind of person he is would help uncover his location, and given her initial impression - that Hawke (either is or with an apostate) arrived in Kirkwall with other Fereldans to undermine and destabilize the region - the truth about Hawke's motivations came as a shock to her. 

The reason she's looking for Hawke is left sort of ambiguous, but it is because he/she was there and holds sway with (group they sided with) and could still - as Varric says - potentially prevent the entire continent from spiraling further into chaos. 

Zeulon wrote...

What kind of relevance does this information have, especialy when you consider how small a factor Hawke actually is. Somethng she should already know.

Hawke has tremendous relevance.  Whether or not he/she is ultimately overcome by events does not change that. 

TJSolo wrote...

It is not the closure that break characters, it's the writers. See DA2.

That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

"It's not ingredients that make the entree, it's the chef.  See hamburger."

Hawke is as relevant as Hitlers secretary. Seriously  i would even argue that there is only one event that is realy important for the way things turned out. Hawke is, at best, one of many factors.
The expedition was neither planed nor executed by  hawke nor had he realy anything to do with a cretain item.
An important person would have died regardless of Hawke´s actions.
Act 3 is mere history lesson and i cannot see Hawke´s present as anything more than tagged on.

[upsettingshorts]

Zeulon wrote...

Hawke is as relevant as Hitlers secretary. Seriously  i would even argue that there is only one event that is realy important for the way things turned out. Hawke is, at best, one of many factors.

That's not really accurate at all, except for the part about Hawke being one of many factors.  But I can see we're not going to agree.

[Camenae]

I have to admit that I really don't see why people view their decisions in DAO as having so much more impact than their decisions in DA2. When I really think about it, I come to the conclusion that the only major difference is the epilogue cards in DAO.

Everything in DA2 leads to the final showdown in the Gallows and the player killing Meredith and Orsino, true.

Everything in DAO leads to the final showdown in Fort Drakon and the player killing the Archdemon.

In DAO you have choices such as, whether to kill the elves, kill the werewolves, or lift the curse. In DA2 you can also pick whether to kill the elves, except this time I didn't get an epilogue card reminding me what I did. There are a lot of other such examples.

I do agree with some above posters who say that another difference is that the choices in DA2 are mostly personal. I don't have a problem with that, but I can see how others feel that these choices were "less epic." But personally I don't see that as proving that DA2 had less choices than DAO, only a different type of choices.

[cljqnsnyc]

For me, the big finale of DA2 is also it's biggest mistake and a perfect indication of just how incidental Hawke really was. In the end, Hawke's actions have absolutely no affect whatsoever on the outcome, it was preordained from the start........you're just a witness and nothing more. So what choice or role do you actually play in the grand scheme of things? Witness. What happens after this is anyone's guess. So why is this so called "Champion" important? Who can say? We certainly don't learn the answer in DA2....another huge mistake.

By contrast, The Hero of Fereldan did indeed have a major impact on that country's future. Everything from the fate of The Circle, Redcliffe, The Dalish, and multiple individuals, to the ruler of Orzammar and Fereldan itself. You even have the ultimate choice of life or death! You're not just important, you're essential!

From my viewpoint, there's no comparison between DAO and DA2 when it comes to the amount of impact you actually have on the world you live in. At least for me, in DAO, I FELT like The Hero of Fereldan when it was all said and done. In DA2, The Champion Of Kirkwall was just a title that held very little meaning.

[AkiKishi]

Upsettingshorts wrote...
That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

"It's not ingredients that make the entree, it's the chef.  See hamburger."

He's refering to how certain things are retconned or just ignored by the writers.

[AkiKishi]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Zeulon wrote...

Hawke is as relevant as Hitlers secretary. Seriously  i would even argue that there is only one event that is realy important for the way things turned out. Hawke is, at best, one of many factors.

That's not really accurate at all, except for the part about Hawke being one of many factors.  But I can see we're not going to agree.

If DA2 was The Usual Suspects. Varric would be Keyser Soze and Hawke would just be the poor shmuck he set up to take the fall.