843 réponses à ce sujet

[upsettingshorts]

MorrigansLove wrote...

It's not fair that we have to pay more money just so we can see what the consequences of our actions were.

Then don't, read about them in a Wiki after the next thing comes out.  If you're emotionally invested enough in the narrative though, you'll probably want to continue to influence events - and that's when the "pay more money" stuff comes in.

It's not as if there's going to be a DLC that unlocks epilogue cards and epilogue cards only.  

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 18 avril 2011 - 07:43 .

[Bostur]

jds1bio wrote...

I agree with both statements.  Making the two choices leading up to the archdemon gave a great deal of importance to the act of defeating the archdemon (which by itself just means that a fantasy trope has been satisfied).

DA2 had plenty of choices and consequences, but your main-story choices were of no consequence to the ending.  DA2 didn't need cards at the end, it needed feedback on the main-story choices made that could be woven into the endgame, just like the sibling/companion choices were.

Well DAO weaved minor choices into the subplot as well. With various ways to deal with the Arl Eamon situation, the preparation of the defense of Redcliffe, the whole political mess in Orzammar, several more examples that will be too spoilerish. Those did feel to me like they made a small difference, maybe because the world tended to reflect those changes afterwards by simply having interactable NPCs acknowledging the results.

[Any0day]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Given that multiple "real" outcomes in DAO left a lot of players without closure.

In DAO death of your main character (if chose sacrifice) is as big a closure as can ever get in a game. In DAO there was a Start>Middle>End (exception being only where morrigan went and the god child). In DA2 you have a Start>Middle>.....(is it over?). 

I disagree -

DAO was Start>M i d d l e> End. whereas
DA2 was Start>End>Start>End>Start> Middle?

I think that was the biggest issue really (besides that lack of ''choice''), that DA2 really fumbled around the storyline. Any single one of those acts could have made a full-fledged storyline and done it really well, but because there was such easy resolutions after huge build-ups - it felt half-baked and rushed.

Modifié par Any0day, 18 avril 2011 - 07:49 .

[upsettingshorts]

I could just as easily frame DAO in precisely that same way, as the plot hubs had even less to do with each other than the Acts in DA2. If you label everything between Lothering and the Landsmeet as "the middle" it makes it seem much more homogeneous and interrelated than it actually was.

DA2 had the occasional quest or returning character from a previous Act linking them together, sometimes a theme, but usually the timeskip changed the paradigm and overall focus of the protagonist.  In Act 1, you were making money - in Act 2, you were dealing with (spoiler) and so on.

DAO had the occasional quest or in the one case of Haven, a direct link, to a previous area. But otherwise had precious little linking plot hubs together becauses the overarching theme of "Blight."  In the Circle you were dealing with Uldred's rebellion, in Orzammar you were playing kingmaker and so on.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 18 avril 2011 - 07:50 .

[jds1bio]

Bostur wrote...

jds1bio wrote...

Making the two choices leading up to the archdemon gave a great deal of importance to the act of defeating the archdemon (which by itself just means that a fantasy trope has been satisfied).

Well DAO weaved minor choices into the subplot as well. With various ways to deal with the Arl Eamon situation, the preparation of the defense of Redcliffe, the whole political mess in Orzammar, several more examples that will be too spoilerish. Those did feel to me like they made a small difference, maybe because the world tended to reflect those changes afterwards by simply having interactable NPCs acknowledging the results.

Yes, the final goodbyes and acknowledgements were a nice touch to a game where the main outcome was clear.  But then you got the cards after, which may have undone a bit of that (when I saw all the Orzammar outcomes, for instance).

[Dragoonlordz]

jds1bio wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

Lets just put it this way it really annoys me when people say things like the only choices real effect in DAO was epilogue which couple people have done in this thread because it's just not true.

Kind of like how I get annoyed when people claim DA2 had no choices with no consequences just because there are no cards at the end to tell you which choices were important and what happened because of them?

I agree with both statements.  Making the two choices leading up to the archdemon gave a great deal of importance to the act of defeating the archdemon (which by itself just means that a fantasy trope has been satisfied).

DA2 had plenty of choices and consequences, but your main-story choices were of no consequence to the ending.  DA2 didn't need cards at the end, it needed feedback on the main-story choices made that could be woven into the endgame, just like the sibling/companion choices were.

...And here's the crux of it from story and choices perspective. 

A Solution: Having the choices matter and of same scale and scope as DOA (affecting the both immediate and cumulative on the story all the way to/and including the ending) while also having the main protaganists choices such aka (building the personaility of your hero in this world and his/her relationships including bringing back the on the move explorative history and plot based dialogues and not *timed event only in DA2* chats with party members) from DA2.

The Problem:: Time.

Balls in Biowares court.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 18 avril 2011 - 07:59 .

[MorrigansLove]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

MorrigansLove wrote...

It's not fair that we have to pay more money just so we can see what the consequences of our actions were.

Then don't, read about them in a Wiki after the next thing comes out.  If you're emotionally invested enough in the narrative though, you'll probably want to continue to influence events - and that's when the "pay more money" stuff comes in.

It's not as if there's going to be a DLC that unlocks epilogue cards and epilogue cards only.  

That's a bunch of horses*it, and you know it.

If a game is going to be very long, like Dragon Age 2, then there should be a definitive ending that will make it worth the player's time. Why should it be mandatory for us to spend more money just to find out how the story ends? It's not fair to do these cop out endings where they want you to spend more money to get the next installment. Because, after all, what If someone hated Dragon Age 2 and just wanted it to be over and done with, and you don't want to play part 3? They've just been completely f**ked over, because they have no idea what happened to any one at the end of the game and basically Bioware said "**** you, we don't care, if you don't spend more money, then you don't get to find out what happened to anyone, and you just wasted 60+ hours of your life." This is not acceptable, in my opinion, and Bioware should be ashamed. You should also be ashamed for thinking it's okay for people to spend their hard earned money, and then being ****ed over with a pointless, unsatisfying ending. My verdict, if you're going to have a long game, have a definitive ending, and then if someone CHOOSES to continue with the saga through DlC/expansions, then so be it, but DO NOT make it mandatory that people spend more money to get an ending for something they've already beaten.

[Any0day]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

I could just as easily frame DAO in precisely that same way, as the plot hubs had even less to do with each other than the Acts in DA2. If you label everything between Lothering and the Landsmeet as "the middle" it makes it seem much more homogeneous and interrelated than it actually was.

Not sure I agree there - DAO certainly had hubs that were relatively unrelated with eachother, but were always related to the overall story arc in some way or another. It's hard to exemplify without spoiling, but there was a ''reason'' to go to each hub - and you felt a sense of purpose.

DA2 had the occasional quest or returning character from a previous Act linking them together, sometimes a theme, but usually the timeskip changed the paradigm and overall focus of the protagonist.  In Act 1, you were making money - in Act 2, you were dealing with (spoiler) and so on.

Well, in act 2 --- exactly what was my motivation supposed to be? I really didn't see it. I was rich, had my own mansion - and depending on the choices you made in act one -- the sibling thing was either badly resolved or unresolved and unresolvable the entire game. I had absolutely no reason to step outside my door after act 2; I just saw Hawk as some meddling idiot who put his family in danger because... he was an idiot.

[upsettingshorts]

MorrigansLove wrote...

That's a bunch of horses*it, and you know it.

It is, and I do?

MorrigansLove wrote...

They've just been completely f**ked over, because they have no idea what happened to any one at the end of the game and basically Bioware said "**** you, we don't care, if you don't spend more money, then you don't get to find out what happened to anyone, and you just wasted 60+ hours of your life." This is not acceptable, in my opinion, and Bioware should be ashamed. You should also be ashamed for thinking it's okay for people to spend their hard earned money, and then being ****ed over with a pointless, unsatisfying ending.

Thanks for that, I needed a good laugh.   You should stay away from fiction, it seems to do awful things to your blood pressure when it doesn't turn out the way you like.

Any0day wrote...

Well, in act 2 --- exactly what was my motivation supposed to be?

This falls under the "why didn't my Warden bolt the second he had the opportunity, considering he felt like was blackmailed and kidnapped by an organization he didn't like and didn't trust."  But there's no way I can answer more specifically in a nonspoiler forum.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 18 avril 2011 - 08:04 .

[MorrigansLove]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

MorrigansLove wrote...

That's a bunch of horses*it, and you know it.

It is, and I do?

MorrigansLove wrote...

They've just been completely f**ked
over, because they have no idea what happened to any one at the end of
the game and basically Bioware said "**** you, we don't care, if you
don't spend more money, then you don't get to find out what happened to
anyone, and you just wasted 60+ hours of your life." This is not
acceptable, in my opinion, and Bioware should be ashamed. You should
also be ashamed for thinking it's okay for people to spend their hard
earned money, and then being ****ed over with a pointless, unsatisfying
ending.

Thanks for that, I needed a good laugh.  

You can't even justify your own opinion. Good day, sir.

What would people have said if LOTR: Return to the King(theatrical release)was cut off abruptly at the end, and everyone had to wait another year just to see if Frodo delivered the ring in the DVD release? Fans would've been mortified.

Modifié par MorrigansLove, 18 avril 2011 - 08:05 .

[Dragoonlordz]

Filament wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

...And here's the crux of it from story and choices perspective. 

A Solution: Having the choices matter and of same scale and scope as DOA (affecting the both immediate and cumulative on the story all the way to/and including the ending) while also having the main protaganists choices such aka (building the personaility of your hero in this world and his/her relationships including bringing back the on the move explorative history and plot based dialogues and not *timed event only in DA2* chats with party members) from DA2.

The Problem:: Time.

Balls in Biowares court.

From what I got from UpsettingShorts' post, that's not necessarily a perfect solution, since having choices regarding the main plot matter on the scope of DAO makes it harder for them to matter ever again. (how will the OGB matter when in some cases he doesn't exist?)

It is necessary to have choices that matter, Bioware do not make jRPGs they base their games completley on stories with choices and have said so themselves. It's something they pride themselves on and seporates them from the generic story only developers out there.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 18 avril 2011 - 08:07 .

[upsettingshorts]

MorrigansLove wrote...

You can't even justify your own opinion. Good day, sir.

That's what I've been doing, before you replied with "horse****" and a bunch of raving, entitled nonsense.

MorrigansLove wrote...

What would people have said if LOTR: Return to the King(theatrical release)was cut off abruptly at the end, and everyone had to wait another year just to see if Frodo delivered the ring in the DVD release? Fans would've been mortified.

What if I used a misleading, irrelevant strawman that had nothing to do with the argument?  What if indeed....

Wait... what would happen if the film version of Return of the King cut out the Scouring of the Shire?!  THE HORROR!

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 18 avril 2011 - 08:07 .

[Any0day]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

MorrigansLove wrote...

They've just been completely f**ked over, because they have no idea what happened to any one at the end of the game and basically Bioware said "**** you, we don't care, if you don't spend more money, then you don't get to find out what happened to anyone, and you just wasted 60+ hours of your life." This is not acceptable, in my opinion, and Bioware should be ashamed. You should also be ashamed for thinking it's okay for people to spend their hard earned money, and then being ****ed over with a pointless, unsatisfying ending.

Thanks for that, I needed a good laugh.   You should stay away from fiction, it seems to do awful things to your blood pressure when it doesn't turn out the way you like.

But... He's right --- lol.
You can laugh all the way to the gamestop - but at the end of the day DA2 made us pay money to have absolutely nothing resolved or answered before smacking us with a big ''to be continued...''

Hey, I'm all for cliffhangers... but you have to give a little back first, and they didn't.

[MorrigansLove]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

MorrigansLove wrote...

You can't even justify your own opinion. Good day, sir.

That's what I've been doing, before you replied with "horse****" and a bunch of raving, entitled nonsense.

It's because morons like you who think Bioware is entitled to have our money, when they can't even finish their own damn game. At least origins was finished. I am entitled to be angry when I truly loved the first game, and I CHOSE to buy all the DlC for it, because I loved it so much. I didn't like DA2 overall but I liked the characters, so why should it be mandatory that I have to spend more money to find out what happened to them?

Modifié par MorrigansLove, 18 avril 2011 - 08:11 .

[upsettingshorts]

Any0day wrote...

But... He's right --- lol.

He's right that it bothered him.  

Any0day wrote...

You can laugh all the way to the gamestop - but at the end of the day DA2 made us pay money to have absolutely nothing resolved or answered before smacking us with a big ''to be continued...''

I'm confused, is it still about the journey, not the destination?

Because if it isn't I wasted my time playing DAO to find out the Archdemon died.  

Any0day wrote...

Hey, I'm all for cliffhangers... but you have to give a little back first, and they didn't.

They did, Varric and Cassandra discuss the worldstate during their interrogation scenes. 

MorrigansLove wrote...

It's because morons like you who think Bioware is entitled to have our money, when they can't even finish their own damn game.

I don't think that, and they did finish.  

What I do think is that people who simply don't like a story shouldn't foam at the mouth with righteous indignance about how ashamed anyone who wrote it or liked it should be. 

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 18 avril 2011 - 08:10 .

[upsettingshorts]

MorrigansLove wrote...

I didn't like DA2 overall but I liked the characters, so why should it be mandatory that I have to spend more money to find out what happened to them?

I'm not entirely convinced you understand what that word means.

[AkiKishi]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

Filament wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

...And here's the crux of it from story and choices perspective. 

A Solution: Having the choices matter and of same scale and scope as DOA (affecting the both immediate and cumulative on the story all the way to/and including the ending) while also having the main protaganists choices such aka (building the personaility of your hero in this world and his/her relationships) from DA2.

The Problem:: Time.

Balls in Biowares court.

From what I got from UpsettingShorts' post, that's not necessarily a perfect solution, since having choices regarding the main plot matter on the scope of DAO makes it harder for them to matter ever again. (how will the OGB matter when in some cases he doesn't exist?)

It is necessary to have choices that matter, Bioware do not make jRPGs they base their games completley on stories with choices and have said so themselves. It's something they pride themselves on and seporates them from the generic story only developers out there.

Maybe that will be did not make "JRPGs". I always thought they made work for themselves with the ME series and all those variable flags. DA was made as a stand alone, it's very easy to see that from how things wrap up Fallout style.

The idea that you are obligated to buy a sequel just so you can see a real ending , that's only going to fly so long. In ME it's fair enough ME was always going to be a trilogy. Even so ME2 had its own ending of the ME2 plot, even if it left the Reaper question open.
DA2 has no ending, the Warden is now "missing" whether because of failed import flags or Anders Syndrome. Hawke is missing, there is some sort of war brewing but there is no resolution of the events of DA2.

Modifié par BobSmith101, 18 avril 2011 - 08:13 .

[MorrigansLove]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Any0day wrote...

But... He's right --- lol.

He's right that it bothered him.  

Any0day wrote...

You can laugh all the way to the gamestop - but at the end of the day DA2 made us pay money to have absolutely nothing resolved or answered before smacking us with a big ''to be continued...''

I'm confused, is it still about the journey, not the destination?

Because if it isn't I wasted my time playing DAO to find out the Archdemon died.  

Any0day wrote...

Hey, I'm all for cliffhangers... but you have to give a little back first, and they didn't.

They did, Varric and Cassandra discuss the worldstate during their interrogation scenes. 

MorrigansLove wrote...

It's because morons like you who think Bioware is entitled to have our money, when they can't even finish their own damn game.

I don't think that, and they did finish.  

What I do think is that people who simply don't like a story shouldn't foam at the mouth with righteous indignance about how ashamed anyone who wrote it or liked it should be. 

Oh, they finished? You must've missed all the re-used areas, then, which wouldn't surprise me.

[upsettingshorts]

MorrigansLove wrote...

Oh, they finished? You must've missed all the re-used areas, then, which wouldn't surprise me.

We're talking about the story.  Unless you'd like to move the goalposts over to level design, in which case I'd be agreeing with you.

That said, the re-used areas weren't polarizing - which is what this thread is about - no-one liked them.  So it's not particularly on topic, is it?

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 18 avril 2011 - 08:15 .

[MorrigansLove]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

MorrigansLove wrote...

Oh, they finished? You must've missed all the re-used areas, then, which wouldn't surprise me.

We're talking about the story.  Unless you'd like to move the goalposts over to level design, in which case I'd be agreeing with you.

The story was also incoherent, and arduous to play through, but that is for the spoiler section.

So you agree the game is NOT finished, then? 

Have you played through Act 3? It was a complete mess.

Modifié par MorrigansLove, 18 avril 2011 - 08:18 .

[TMZuk]

DASockDA wrote...
.... And you should -never- underestimate the parent-worship a child has. They will want to like anything their parents like.

:lol:

Quite obviously you haven't met my brats...Uh, my adorable loving son and daughter.

[upsettingshorts]

BobSmith101 wrote...

In ME it's fair enough ME was always going to be a trilogy.

Then why isn't it also "fair enough" as Dragon Age was always going to be about Thedas?

MorrigansLove wrote...

So you agree the game is NOT finished, then?

I'd agree the level design wasn't.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 18 avril 2011 - 08:17 .

[Dave of Canada]

*meh, screw it*

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 18 avril 2011 - 08:18 .