843 réponses à ce sujet

[Persephone]

BobSmith101 wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

If it was fixed there would have been no need for epilogue cards. The very fact you have them means the story is not fixed.

I disagree.  Each game has elements that are fixed and elements that are dynamic.  

Yet one has many different possible epilogue cards and the other has Hawke disapearing.

One has many different (bugged) Epilogue Cards as a tacked on "closure" device while the other is a cliffhanger promising many possible consequences in future installments.

I mentioned "Gone With The Wind" a while back.

That story has a VERY open ending. (Will she get him back? What will happen to...XYZ etc.) Margaret Mitchell refused to budge on offering closure and GOOD ON HER.

And then Alexandra Ripley wrote "Scarlett", offering the "Epilogue Cards" ....just as tacky as they were in DAO. When it was made into a Mini Series (Drab garbage) many of her Epilogue Cards were rewritten drastically. It still bombed. Reminds me of Awakening and people being VERY angry at what kind of ending was forced upon their Wardens and actively saying; In my head these Epilogues do NOT exist. (I,E. Queenie Cous Cous ending)

[Otterwarden]

Persephone wrote...

I mentioned "Gone With The Wind" a while back.

That story has a VERY open ending. (Will she get him back? What will happen to...XYZ etc.) Margaret Mitchell refused to budge on offering closure and GOOD ON HER.

And then Alexandra Ripley wrote "Scarlett", offering the "Epilogue Cards" ....just as tacky as they were in DAO. When it was made into a Mini Series (Drab garbage) many of her Epilogue Cards were rewritten drastically. It still bombed. Reminds me of Awakening and people being VERY angry at what kind of ending was forced upon their Wardens and actively saying; In my head these Epilogues do NOT exist. (I,E. Queenie Cous Cous ending)

Margret Mitchell never wrote another book set in Atlanta.  Had she intended to use "Gone With the Wind" as an IP she would not of been able to get away with her stand.  The pressure from publishers/readers to resolve Scarlet's story would of been too great.  After nearly 1000 pages, she had simply said everything she wanted to say about the tale, and she knew it.  At ten I was furious with her for not telling me what happened, now I'm very grateful that she left it up to me to decide whether or not Rhett came back.  And, over the years, my ending has changed.

[Persephone]

Otterwarden wrote...

Persephone wrote...

I mentioned "Gone With The Wind" a while back.

That story has a VERY open ending. (Will she get him back? What will happen to...XYZ etc.) Margaret Mitchell refused to budge on offering closure and GOOD ON HER.

And then Alexandra Ripley wrote "Scarlett", offering the "Epilogue Cards" ....just as tacky as they were in DAO. When it was made into a Mini Series (Drab garbage) many of her Epilogue Cards were rewritten drastically. It still bombed. Reminds me of Awakening and people being VERY angry at what kind of ending was forced upon their Wardens and actively saying; In my head these Epilogues do NOT exist. (I,E. Queenie Cous Cous ending)

Margret Mitchell never wrote another book set in Atlanta.  Had she intended to use "Gone With the Wind" as an IP she would not of been able to get away with her stand.  The pressure from publishers/readers to resolve Scarlet's story would of been too great.  After nearly 1000 pages, she had simply said everything she wanted to say about the tale, and she knew it.  At ten I was furious with her for not telling me what happened, now I'm very grateful that she left it up to me to decide whether or not Rhett came back.  And, over the years, my ending has changed.

And that's exactly my point. Who knew whether or not GWTW could not have been a series of novels? I for one am glad it was not.

[jds1bio]

Otterwarden wrote...

jds1bio wrote...

One is not going to happen, and the other is a mis-fire in that The Witcher was in no way like an old-age RPG. It had its own combat mechanics and quirks, no real party system, and far less character and armor choices than even DA2. It did get right the choice-and-consequence within a rigid story though, and that alone may be enough reason for you to side with them over BioWare. But are they really siding with you right back?

So again, where is this crossroads? With releases of ME3 and TOR on the horizon, they already seem to have a path they're following.

Personally, I've never been convinced that the old guard is wedded to this old-age RPG formula.  And, simple observation on this board, would suggest otherwise because so many of them enjoyed "The Witcher".  Now either you would be suggesting that they are too senile not to see the ways that CD Projekt has deviated from the golden days, or there has to be some acknowledgement that this group is keenly embracing well executed change.  For me the crossroad stand off with Bioware is not "Return to your roots or I will abandon you".  It's more a desire to see some adult recognition that their experiment has not produced the necessary interest to sustain a franchise built on that model going forward.  From here on out it will be a "show me the goods" relationship.  Well, in my case, it was a "show me the goods" for DA2 as well.

Well, I'm definitely not suggesting that anyone is senile.  But we all tend to look at things through our own tinted lenses from time to time.

I totally understand if your stance is "show me the goods".  I'm curious to see how many pre-orders BioWare can collect in the next year or so.  But what will they need to show you, if they decide to keep some of the features in DA2 going forward?

[Boiny Bunny]

As wonderful a book as GWTW is, I think we can all agree that DA2 is nowhere near that calibre of storytelling.

Neither of the two have an ending that is overly conclusive. That is where the similarities end.

DA2 is not somehow a better game because it's ending is as unconcluded as a fantastic book.

[Persephone]

Boiny Bunny wrote...

As wonderful a book as GWTW is, I think we can all agree that DA2 is nowhere near that calibre of storytelling.

Neither of the two have an ending that is overly conclusive. That is where the similarities end.

DA2 is not somehow a better game because it's ending is as unconcluded as a fantastic book.

That was NOT the point.

Though one could, if one wanted, argue that GWTW was a Civil War bodice ripper, filled with stereotypes, racist retcons (Glossing over the horrors of slavery) etc.

I happen to love it though. You can tear anything down, if you know just where to find its weak spots.

[jds1bio]

Boiny Bunny wrote...

As wonderful a book as GWTW is, I think we can all agree that DA2 is nowhere near that calibre of storytelling.

Neither of the two have an ending that is overly conclusive. That is where the similarities end.

DA2 is not somehow a better game because it's ending is as unconcluded as a fantastic book.

There are lots of things I can leave to my imagination regarding the ending of a book, or a game.  But a game that allows me to make choices throughout, then leaves me wondering what the results of those choices were at the end, is really acting more like a brainstorm.  It's like if I played checkers, chose red or black pieces, then had to wonder which pieces won the game.

Modifié par jds1bio, 19 avril 2011 - 03:18 .

[Persephone]

jds1bio wrote...

Boiny Bunny wrote...

As wonderful a book as GWTW is, I think we can all agree that DA2 is nowhere near that calibre of storytelling.

Neither of the two have an ending that is overly conclusive. That is where the similarities end.

DA2 is not somehow a better game because it's ending is as unconcluded as a fantastic book.

There are lots of things I can leave to my imagination regarding the ending of a book, or a game.  But a game that allows me to make choices throughout, then leaves me wondering what the results of those choices were at the end, is really acting more like a brainstorm.  It's like if I played checkers, chose red or black pieces, then had to wonder which pieces won the game.

Not in my case. I'm spending HOURS discussing possible outcomes, theories etc. with my friends. DAO never offered that to me. And it's such fun!! 

[Boiny Bunny]

^ If that was not your intention, my apologies.

To me, your post at the top of this page suggested otherwise.

Personally, I found the epilogue cards in Origins to be immensely well done. They described in some detail a great variety of events which followed, which would have been impossible to portray in-game cutscenes without a 40 minute series of cinematics. I wanted to know what happened with Bhelin and Harrowmont after I selected one of them. I wanted to know what became of the dwarven chantry. I wanted to know what became of all of the characters I had travelled with, and what became of myself (the Warden, that is to say).

In DA2, you still get the same 'epilogue card' style ending - except there are only 2 or so 'cards' in essense. It just quickly tells you a war started, then Hawke vanished and his/her companions left his/her side. I found this to be immensely dissatisfying after the 20 or so paragraphs I got in Origins describing not only how a vast array of my choies impacted the world, but what became of myself and all of my companions as well.

[Boiny Bunny]

Persephone wrote...

jds1bio wrote...

Boiny Bunny wrote...

As wonderful a book as GWTW is, I think we can all agree that DA2 is nowhere near that calibre of storytelling.

Neither of the two have an ending that is overly conclusive. That is where the similarities end.

DA2 is not somehow a better game because it's ending is as unconcluded as a fantastic book.

There are lots of things I can leave to my imagination regarding the ending of a book, or a game.  But a game that allows me to make choices throughout, then leaves me wondering what the results of those choices were at the end, is really acting more like a brainstorm.  It's like if I played checkers, chose red or black pieces, then had to wonder which pieces won the game.

Not in my case. I'm spending HOURS discussing possible outcomes, theories etc. with my friends. DAO never offered that to me. And it's such fun!! 

There you have it.  So in general, do you prefer unconcluded stories, so that you can theorise about what will happen next?

[jds1bio]

Persephone wrote...

jds1bio wrote...

Boiny Bunny wrote...

As wonderful a book as GWTW is, I think we can all agree that DA2 is nowhere near that calibre of storytelling.

Neither of the two have an ending that is overly conclusive. That is where the similarities end.

DA2 is not somehow a better game because it's ending is as unconcluded as a fantastic book.

There are lots of things I can leave to my imagination regarding the ending of a book, or a game.  But a game that allows me to make choices throughout, then leaves me wondering what the results of those choices were at the end, is really acting more like a brainstorm.  It's like if I played checkers, chose red or black pieces, then had to wonder which pieces won the game.

Not in my case. I'm spending HOURS discussing possible outcomes, theories etc. with my friends. DAO never offered that to me. And it's such fun!! 

So for you, it is acting like a brainstorm also.

[Persephone]

jds1bio wrote...

Persephone wrote...

jds1bio wrote...

Boiny Bunny wrote...

As wonderful a book as GWTW is, I think we can all agree that DA2 is nowhere near that calibre of storytelling.

Neither of the two have an ending that is overly conclusive. That is where the similarities end.

DA2 is not somehow a better game because it's ending is as unconcluded as a fantastic book.

There are lots of things I can leave to my imagination regarding the ending of a book, or a game.  But a game that allows me to make choices throughout, then leaves me wondering what the results of those choices were at the end, is really acting more like a brainstorm.  It's like if I played checkers, chose red or black pieces, then had to wonder which pieces won the game.

Not in my case. I'm spending HOURS discussing possible outcomes, theories etc. with my friends. DAO never offered that to me. And it's such fun!! 

So for you, it is acting like a brainstorm also.

No. It's like an amazing cliffhanger leaving me hungry for more.

But Bioware: Take your TIME with it!

[Boiny Bunny]

Persephone wrote...

jds1bio wrote...

Persephone wrote...

jds1bio wrote...

Boiny Bunny wrote...

As wonderful a book as GWTW is, I think we can all agree that DA2 is nowhere near that calibre of storytelling.

Neither of the two have an ending that is overly conclusive. That is where the similarities end.

DA2 is not somehow a better game because it's ending is as unconcluded as a fantastic book.

There are lots of things I can leave to my imagination regarding the ending of a book, or a game.  But a game that allows me to make choices throughout, then leaves me wondering what the results of those choices were at the end, is really acting more like a brainstorm.  It's like if I played checkers, chose red or black pieces, then had to wonder which pieces won the game.

Not in my case. I'm spending HOURS discussing possible outcomes, theories etc. with my friends. DAO never offered that to me. And it's such fun!! 

So for you, it is acting like a brainstorm also.

No. It's like an amazing cliffhanger leaving me hungry for more.

But Bioware: Take your TIME with it!

But which part of the cliffhanger are you enjoying?  The upcoming war?  Is that all?  Is there anything else?

[Otterwarden]

jds1bio wrote...

I totally understand if your stance is "show me the goods".  I'm curious to see how many pre-orders BioWare can collect in the next year or so.  But what will they need to show you, if they decide to keep some of the features in DA2 going forward?

All they need to show me is that they have something in it that I'm likely to enjoy for full pop.  The DA2 demo and the developer diaries all screamed... WTF:O

After that it just became a simple negotiation to find the right price point.

Specifically, I want the combat to return to something less comic book, party customization to make its reappearance, as well as in depth skills.  Visual lore to be respected/items to bear some unique value, the ipod interface to make an exit.... basically putting back in all the "streamlined" content.  Even with these, I will still monitor reception.

[Persephone]

Boiny Bunny wrote...

Persephone wrote...

jds1bio wrote...

Persephone wrote...

jds1bio wrote...

Boiny Bunny wrote...

As wonderful a book as GWTW is, I think we can all agree that DA2 is nowhere near that calibre of storytelling.

Neither of the two have an ending that is overly conclusive. That is where the similarities end.

DA2 is not somehow a better game because it's ending is as unconcluded as a fantastic book.

There are lots of things I can leave to my imagination regarding the ending of a book, or a game.  But a game that allows me to make choices throughout, then leaves me wondering what the results of those choices were at the end, is really acting more like a brainstorm.  It's like if I played checkers, chose red or black pieces, then had to wonder which pieces won the game.

Not in my case. I'm spending HOURS discussing possible outcomes, theories etc. with my friends. DAO never offered that to me. And it's such fun!! 

So for you, it is acting like a brainstorm also.

No. It's like an amazing cliffhanger leaving me hungry for more.

But Bioware: Take your TIME with it!

But which part of the cliffhanger are you enjoying?  The upcoming war?  Is that all?  Is there anything else?

This isn't a Spoiler Forum. And I've explained it before. There is much more unresolved than all of Thedas going up in flames over a war of religion vs. magic, fanaticism vs. freedom...etc.

But I want those things to MATTER and if Bioware fails on picking up on any of it, I'll be the first to confess her disappointment.

[Gatt9]

jds1bio wrote...

Otterwarden wrote...

jds1bio wrote...

One is not going to happen, and the other is a mis-fire in that The Witcher was in no way like an old-age RPG. It had its own combat mechanics and quirks, no real party system, and far less character and armor choices than even DA2. It did get right the choice-and-consequence within a rigid story though, and that alone may be enough reason for you to side with them over BioWare. But are they really siding with you right back?

So again, where is this crossroads? With releases of ME3 and TOR on the horizon, they already seem to have a path they're following.

Personally, I've never been convinced that the old guard is wedded to this old-age RPG formula.  And, simple observation on this board, would suggest otherwise because so many of them enjoyed "The Witcher".  Now either you would be suggesting that they are too senile not to see the ways that CD Projekt has deviated from the golden days, or there has to be some acknowledgement that this group is keenly embracing well executed change.  For me the crossroad stand off with Bioware is not "Return to your roots or I will abandon you".  It's more a desire to see some adult recognition that their experiment has not produced the necessary interest to sustain a franchise built on that model going forward.  From here on out it will be a "show me the goods" relationship.  Well, in my case, it was a "show me the goods" for DA2 as well.

Well, I'm definitely not suggesting that anyone is senile.  But we all tend to look at things through our own tinted lenses from time to time.

I totally understand if your stance is "show me the goods".  I'm curious to see how many pre-orders BioWare can collect in the next year or so.  But what will they need to show you, if they decide to keep some of the features in DA2 going forward?

The "old guard" is not at all wedded to any formula.  We started out with AD&D,  a system which pretty much entailed no more serious Roleplaying than Diablo (Excluding later works like Dragonlance).  We then moved to AD&D 2,  with further RP development including the eventual becoming some form of leader,  and deeper storylines.  Then AD&D 3 which evolved many classes into much more dynamic forms.

We played Wizardy,  which was just a pointless dungeon,  Bard's Tale,  nothing much more than "Go and kill everything you meet",  working our way up to Fallout,  Planescape,  BG 2,  FF7,  and so many others.

We're quite flexible,  it's the latest trend of releasing Adventure games or Shooters and calling them RPGs that irks us,  the continual removal of RPG mechanics that bugs us.  It's the constant attack upon us that fires us up,  like Laidlaw,  Gaider,  and Bethseda's Todd Berkible,  who continually feel the need to label us as "Unworthy whiners" while releasing compartively crappy games clearly designed for people who hate RPGs.

We kept our piece while we watched RPGs slowly devolved from the highpoints reached with Fallout,  BG2,  and Plancescape.  It's when we started getting attacked for wanting RPGs that we started getting firey.  Go read any of the interviews with any of those guys,  the theme is always the same,  "All of those people aren't worthy because they won't accept what *I* claim to be the future or RPGs,  it's all their fault!"

If they keep some of the features of DA2,  they won't be getting my money.  I'm not playing with the Wheel of "I don't wanna read" complete with Gaider's "Icons for everything so now you don't have to read even 3 words!".  It was a novelty in ME,  it's not a solution for every game.   I'm not playing with warping enemies.  If I want hyperspeed combat,  I'll guy Diablo 3,  it'll be a better game (And yes,  I do plan on buying it). 

If Bioware wants to sell me RPGs,  then they need to sell me RPGs,  not something sterilized for people who hate RPGs.  There's a hundred other games our there for them,  there's no need to turn everything into it.

Which is precisely why the gaming market has been losing revenues for a year now,  March was down 15% from 2010,  January was down 10%,  20% from 2009.  (February was up,  thanks to CoD,  but I seriously doubt the rest of the year will do well,  there's nothing officially on the way that'll boost things significantly,  Pokemon and CoD was all this year had in the way of tentpoles.)

[erynnar]

Boiny Bunny wrote...

^ If that was not your intention, my apologies.

To me, your post at the top of this page suggested otherwise.

Personally, I found the epilogue cards in Origins to be immensely well done. They described in some detail a great variety of events which followed, which would have been impossible to portray in-game cutscenes without a 40 minute series of cinematics. I wanted to know what happened with Bhelin and Harrowmont after I selected one of them. I wanted to know what became of the dwarven chantry. I wanted to know what became of all of the characters I had travelled with, and what became of myself (the Warden, that is to say).

In DA2, you still get the same 'epilogue card' style ending - except there are only 2 or so 'cards' in essense. It just quickly tells you a war started, then Hawke vanished and his/her companions left his/her side. I found this to be immensely dissatisfying after the 20 or so paragraphs I got in Origins describing not only how a vast array of my choies impacted the world, but what became of myself and all of my companions as well.

Yeah for me it was weak tea.  But since my decisions didn't matter to the world except for whether I took off or was given a certain job <spoiler> , there really wasn't much to say and the story didn't grip me enough to make up various endings to amuse myself.

DAO, writing a 99+ fanfic AU after the Blight, yeah I got more out of DAO and it's characteres. It was done so well , while DA2 had a great idea but the story was executed so poorly that  it wasn't an inspiration.

And personally, never really cared for GWTW (to me it was a Civil War bodice ripper with mostly shallow characters (but go fig, I feel a little like that about DA2, though I like the characters bettter). To Kill A Mockingbird (book and movie) now that was a story with great characters.  GWTW's characters I wanted to dump into a lake and drown them to put them out of my misery. Again, different strokes for different folks.

[Persephone]

Otterwarden wrote...

jds1bio wrote...

I totally understand if your stance is "show me the goods".  I'm curious to see how many pre-orders BioWare can collect in the next year or so.  But what will they need to show you, if they decide to keep some of the features in DA2 going forward?

All they need to show me is that they have something in it that I'm likely to enjoy for full pop.  The DA2 demo and the developer diaries all screamed... WTF:O

After that it just became a simple negotiation to find the right price point.

Specifically, I want the combat to return to something less comic book, party customization to make its reappearance, as well as in depth skills.  Visual lore to be respected/items to bear some unique value, the ipod interface to make an exit.... basically putting back in all the "streamlined" content.  Even with these, I will still monitor reception.

Otterwarden:

If you're on the PC, may I recommend the "Eqip your Party" Mod on Nexus to offer all the customization you may require? Nexus also offers several skill upgrades, weapon upgrades (Lore, development)  etc. Mods. Just saying, the Modders have been very busy on that front.

[Persephone]

erynnar wrote...

Boiny Bunny wrote...

^ If that was not your intention, my apologies.

To me, your post at the top of this page suggested otherwise.

Personally, I found the epilogue cards in Origins to be immensely well done. They described in some detail a great variety of events which followed, which would have been impossible to portray in-game cutscenes without a 40 minute series of cinematics. I wanted to know what happened with Bhelin and Harrowmont after I selected one of them. I wanted to know what became of the dwarven chantry. I wanted to know what became of all of the characters I had travelled with, and what became of myself (the Warden, that is to say).

In DA2, you still get the same 'epilogue card' style ending - except there are only 2 or so 'cards' in essense. It just quickly tells you a war started, then Hawke vanished and his/her companions left his/her side. I found this to be immensely dissatisfying after the 20 or so paragraphs I got in Origins describing not only how a vast array of my choies impacted the world, but what became of myself and all of my companions as well.

Yeah for me it was weak tea.  But since my decisions didn't matter to the world except for whether I took off or was given a certain job <spoiler> , there really wasn't much to say and the story didn't grip me enough to make up various endings to amuse myself.

Having a sister myself, being given the decision to do several things regarding her fate in the end sure mattered. Maybe not to the "world" but to me. Just to mention one major decision I truly loved.

[-Skorpious-]

I know this isn't exactly a constructive post, but DA2 would've been a much more enjoyable game in my eyes if more time/resources were devoted towards improving the main plot. DA2's story was weak, if nonexistent at times.

Seriously, I would be ok with practically all the changes made to the DA series if the plot receives the attention it deserves. After all, I don't play Bioware games for gameplay - I play them for their gripping narratives.

[Boiny Bunny]

Persephone:

I understand where you're coming from there - but Origins offered an ability to decide the fate of many companions as well - none of which were the Warden's sister however.

I guess what I'm getting at is, did you like the ability to decide what became of Bethany to an extent, because you have a sister and relate to it? Or was it because what you could do with Bethany was genuinely well written and clever?

Modifié par Boiny Bunny, 19 avril 2011 - 03:45 .

[Persephone]

Boiny Bunny wrote...

Persephone:

I understand where you're coming from there - but Origins offered an ability to decide the fate of many companions as well - none of which were the Warden's sister however.

I guess what I'm getting at is, did you like the ability to decide what became of Bethany to an extent, because you have a sister and relate to it? Or was it because what you could do with Bethany was genuinely well written and clever?

Both.

And in DAII you as well as your companions may end up on very different sides as well.

[Persephone]

-Skorpious- wrote...

I know this isn't exactly a constructive post, but DA2 would've been a much more enjoyable game in my eyes if more time/resources were devoted towards improving the main plot. DA2's story was weak, if nonexistent at times.

Seriously, I would be ok with practically all the changes made to the DA series if the plot receives the attention it deserves. After all, I don't play Bioware games for gameplay - I play them for their gripping narratives.

Truth be told, if I were to say just one thing about DAII:

It's narrative gripped me like no other Bioware game's did. Including BG, NWN, DAO, ME, JE....

[Addai]

tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ptitlekt6mtovm4vne

Volourn wrote...

"I also hate how Mike Laidlaw lied in dev diary 2 for Dragon Age 2. He said at the end, we may achieve a superpower or command an army when becoming the Champion of Kirkwall. All lies. Can't defend that, can you, Upsettingshorts?"

Not a lie. Things change over course of development. No doubt they said things about DA1 pre release that changed. One instance is that at one point BIo claimed there would be 4 playable races yet in the final version there is only 3. R00fles!

(Husband)


Well thats one that I'm not suprised that they changed....     The one thing that Bioware has done that I approve of, is to try to mix it up a bit.    They want the story to have different elements and the game to have different dynamics rather than the "Recycled in Space"  approach taken by many game makers.   And if they would have done that it would have been too much like what was done in Origons and Awakening.

tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ptitlekt6mtovm4vne

Modifié par Addai67, 19 avril 2011 - 03:51 .

[Otterwarden]

Persephone wrote...

Otterwarden:

If you're on the PC, may I recommend the "Eqip your Party" Mod on Nexus to offer all the customization you may require? Nexus also offers several skill upgrades, weapon upgrades (Lore, development)  etc. Mods. Just saying, the Modders have been very busy on that front.

Thank you for those suggestions.  I've ordered the game for someone because I had planned to give that person Mass Effect 2 anyway.  We've never done any mods (think old guard and ancient guard here ), but will look into these as I know he would like to have those elements in the game.