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Polarized reviews explained. BioWare is at a crossroads.


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#701
Boiny Bunny

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Persephone wrote...

Boiny Bunny wrote...

Persephone:

I understand where you're coming from there - but Origins offered an ability to decide the fate of many companions as well - none of which were the Warden's sister however.

I guess what I'm getting at is, did you like the ability to decide what became of Bethany to an extent, because you have a sister and relate to it? Or was it because what you could do with Bethany was genuinely well written and clever?


Both.

And in DAII you as well as your companions may end up on very different sides as well.


I think it's wonderful that you connected with the game on such a deep, personal level, even through horrible events in your own life.

Without that level of personal connection however, I don't think that any of the characters in DA2 stand out particularly, from other Bioware games or just other games in general.

#702
-Skorpious-

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Persephone wrote...

-Skorpious- wrote...

I know this isn't exactly a constructive post, but DA2 would've been a much more enjoyable game in my eyes if more time/resources were devoted towards improving the main plot. DA2's story was weak, if nonexistent at times.

Seriously, I would be ok with practically all the changes made to the DA series if the plot receives the attention it deserves. After all, I don't play Bioware games for gameplay - I play them for their gripping narratives.


Truth be told, if I were to say just one thing about DAII:

It's narrative gripped me like no other Bioware game's did. Including BG, NWN, DAO, ME, JE....=]


I can't argue with an opinion, but you can at least see how much wasted potential the plot of DA2 had. For example - why was every Hawke's rise to power the same? After all, isn't this game about YOUR rise to power? (i.e not Hawke's). 

#703
Boiny Bunny

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Persephone wrote...

-Skorpious- wrote...

I know this isn't exactly a constructive post, but DA2 would've been a much more enjoyable game in my eyes if more time/resources were devoted towards improving the main plot. DA2's story was weak, if nonexistent at times.

Seriously, I would be ok with practically all the changes made to the DA series if the plot receives the attention it deserves. After all, I don't play Bioware games for gameplay - I play them for their gripping narratives.


Truth be told, if I were to say just one thing about DAII:

It's narrative gripped me like no other Bioware game's did. Including BG, NWN, DAO, ME, JE....=]


As much as I loved BG for it's deep mechanics and fantastic dialogue/replayability, the Bioware game that has always gripped me the most is KOTOR.  Image IPB

#704
Persephone

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Otterwarden wrote...

Persephone wrote...

Otterwarden:

If you're on the PC, may I recommend the "Eqip your Party" Mod on Nexus to offer all the customization you may require? Nexus also offers several skill upgrades, weapon upgrades (Lore, development)  etc. Mods. Just saying, the Modders have been very busy on that front. ;)


Thank you for those suggestions.  I've ordered the game for someone because I had planned to give that person Mass Effect 2 anyway.  We've never done any mods (think old guard and ancient guard here :lol:), but will look into these as I know he would like to have those elements in the game.


Excellent. Glad to help.

Oh and there are some DAO Mods there that fix stuff for DAO. Like miscoded banters, Morri content, Alistair content, plot flags, epilogue sliders etc. I'll gladly link you to some. Make DAO even more awesome, have all the content restored. :)

#705
Otterwarden

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Persephone wrote...

Excellent. Glad to help.

Oh and there are some DAO Mods there that fix stuff for DAO. Like miscoded banters, Morri content, Alistair content, plot flags, epilogue sliders etc. I'll gladly link you to some. Make DAO even more awesome, have all the content restored. :)


No, that's very kind of you, but we only usually do only one play through and, if there were any inconsistencies in our DA:O story, I failed to notice them.  Much to my amazement our rogue did manage to play king maker with Alistair despite missing the hardening cues.  Ferelden will just have to govern itself :P

#706
KingDan97

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Can we stop holding Bioware responsible for Mike Laidlaw? Please. Comparing the actual streamlining in ME2 to the design failures of DA2(that were badly catered on both platforms) is not a valid job imho. The only failing that Bioware had was putting the console lead at the head of the franchise, this was not because he did consoles either, it's because he's only ever been lead on one thing, Dragon Age's console port. He took a game that was 90% finished and had some people do UI changes. Everything else was spelled out for him. He had no experience running a project and never should've been put on this.

#707
-Skorpious-

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KingDan97 wrote...

Can we stop holding Bioware responsible for Mike Laidlaw? Please. Comparing the actual streamlining in ME2 to the design failures of DA2(that were badly catered on both platforms) is not a valid job imho. The only failing that Bioware had was putting the console lead at the head of the franchise, this was not because he did consoles either, it's because he's only ever been lead on one thing, Dragon Age's console port. He took a game that was 90% finished and had some people do UI changes. Everything else was spelled out for him. He had no experience running a project and never should've been put on this.


If I screw up at work the company is held responsible; not me. Sure, I may be fired, but my employers would take the brunt (if not all) of the blame.

So yes, Biware is 99.9% responsible for DA2's perceived shortcomings/flaws. After all, Bioware put Mike in charge - Mike didn't usurp his position. 

Modifié par -Skorpious-, 19 avril 2011 - 04:33 .


#708
Otterwarden

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-Skorpious- wrote...

KingDan97 wrote...

Can we stop holding Bioware responsible for Mike Laidlaw? Please. Comparing the actual streamlining in ME2 to the design failures of DA2(that were badly catered on both platforms) is not a valid job imho. The only failing that Bioware had was putting the console lead at the head of the franchise, this was not because he did consoles either, it's because he's only ever been lead on one thing, Dragon Age's console port. He took a game that was 90% finished and had some people do UI changes. Everything else was spelled out for him. He had no experience running a project and never should've been put on this.


If I screw up at work the company is held responsible; not me. Sure, I may be fired, but my employers would take the brunt (if not all) of the blame.

So yes, Biware is 99.9% responsible for DA2's perceived shortcomings/flaws. After all, Bioware put Mike in charge - Mike didn't usurp his position. 


Didn't understand myself how Bioware could not be responsible for the decision of who to put in charge.

#709
Volourn

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The docs are ultimately in charge at BIO along with their fellow EA cohorts. They tell their employees including laidlaw waht they want and he delivers. If they didn't like his work onN DA2, he would have been told to make changes pre release. Period.

That's why games have 'milestones'. So, the big wigs can check up on things so no sneaky business is occuring.

WHAT? Did you think BIO just said, hey Mr. Laidlaw, you are lead deisgner on DA2, you got x amount of months, when that time passes just send it to the printer... we don't need to see your work ever.

100+ employees getting paid for nearly 2 years on the game and you don't think the bosses woudl check to make sure everything is going the way they want? Come on, now. That's silly talk.

That would be horrible leadership.

#710
Otterwarden

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Volourn wrote...

The docs are ultimately in charge at BIO along with their fellow EA cohorts. They tell their employees including laidlaw waht they want and he delivers. If they didn't like his work onN DA2, he would have been told to make changes pre release. Period.

That's why games have 'milestones'. So, the big wigs can check up on things so no sneaky business is occuring.

WHAT? Did you think BIO just said, hey Mr. Laidlaw, you are lead deisgner on DA2, you got x amount of months, when that time passes just send it to the printer... we don't need to see your work ever.

100+ employees getting paid for nearly 2 years on the game and you don't think the bosses woudl check to make sure everything is going the way they want? Come on, now. That's silly talk.

That would be horrible leadership.


They are certainly to be held responsible for the output of the product I agree.  For this reason, their mission statement, so sincerely crafted years ago, rings hollow today.

#711
mdugger12

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Otterwarden wrote...

They are certainly to be held responsible for the output of the product I agree.  For this reason, their mission statement, so sincerely crafted years ago, rings hollow today.


Nah. They still make the best story driven games on the market.

#712
Otterwarden

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mdugger12 wrote...

Otterwarden wrote...

They are certainly to be held responsible for the output of the product I agree.  For this reason, their mission statement, so sincerely crafted years ago, rings hollow today.


Nah. They still make the best story driven games on the market.


"Emotionally engaging"... naw... ME franchise still has a shot at that one, but not DA2...unless we are talking negative emotions here :lol:

#713
mdugger12

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Otterwarden wrote...

mdugger12 wrote...

Otterwarden wrote...

They are certainly to be held responsible for the output of the product I agree.  For this reason, their mission statement, so sincerely crafted years ago, rings hollow today.


Nah. They still make the best story driven games on the market.


"Emotionally engaging"... naw... ME franchise still has a shot at that one, but not DA2...unless we are talking negative emotions here :lol:


lol Well there are a ton of negative emotions regarding DA2, thats for sure. But Bioware still does a great job. We could debate over other developers that are able to create a world and characters that have more depth than Bioware but you have to admit, it would be a very short list to choose from.

#714
AlanC9

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Gatt9 wrote...
The "old guard" is not at all wedded to any formula.  We started out with AD&D,  a system which pretty much entailed no more serious Roleplaying than Diablo (Excluding later works like Dragonlance).  We then moved to AD&D 2...


Well, some of us bailed on AD&D altogether and went to Hero System, GURPS, and so forth.

#715
Il Divo

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Gatt9 wrote...

We're quite flexible,  it's the latest trend of releasing Adventure games or Shooters and calling them RPGs that irks us,  the continual removal of RPG mechanics that bugs us.  It's the constant attack upon us that fires us up,  like Laidlaw,  Gaider,  and Bethseda's Todd Berkible,  who continually feel the need to label us as "Unworthy whiners" while releasing compartively crappy games clearly designed for people who hate RPGs.


And yet, if this is true, I'm curious why Bioware did not choose to label BG II, Kotor, etc as RPG/Adventure games  if this is really the case. Hell, that would make Mass Effect an RPG/adventure/tps hybrid.

We kept our piece while we watched RPGs slowly devolved from the highpoints reached with Fallout,  BG2,  and Plancescape.  It's when we started getting attacked for wanting RPGs that we started getting firey.  Go read any of the interviews with any of those guys,  the theme is always the same,  "All of those people aren't worthy because they won't accept what *I* claim to be the future or RPGs,  it's all their fault!"


Apologies that we can't all settle for copy and paste AD&D mechanics. It's even more laughable that this is regarded as the 'highpoint' of RPGs as you have defined them. If I want to play DnD, I'll call up my group down the street. I don't need Bioware releasing Dungeons and Dragons 3.0 for the millionth time. Jade Empire's combat system ended up having more originality than all of Baldur's Gate II and Planescape: Torment put together.  

If Bioware wants to sell me RPGs,  then they need to sell me RPGs,  not something sterilized for people who hate RPGs.  There's a hundred other games our there for them,  there's no need to turn everything into it.


Talk to most people who enjoyed Planescape Torment and Baldur's Gate II. For more than a few, the experience was not "ZOMG NUMBERS!!!!" that made it incredible, but about the incredibly well-told story in which they had the opportunity to play a part. Actual 'role-playing'.

Modifié par Il Divo, 19 avril 2011 - 01:18 .


#716
Dragoonlordz

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Volourn wrote...

The docs are ultimately in charge at BIO along with their fellow EA cohorts. They tell their employees including laidlaw waht they want and he delivers. If they didn't like his work onN DA2, he would have been told to make changes pre release. Period.

That's why games have 'milestones'. So, the big wigs can check up on things so no sneaky business is occuring.

WHAT? Did you think BIO just said, hey Mr. Laidlaw, you are lead deisgner on DA2, you got x amount of months, when that time passes just send it to the printer... we don't need to see your work ever.

100+ employees getting paid for nearly 2 years on the game and you don't think the bosses woudl check to make sure everything is going the way they want? Come on, now. That's silly talk.

That would be horrible leadership.


Read my signature, actual real quote 2nd line down.

#717
Squeeze the Fish

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This has probably been said before (I hope it has anyway) but I find myself incredibly put-off by most of what the OP was saying. By his reasoning, despite the fact that I have been playing videogames for the better part of TWO DECADES (dating myself, so what) I am somehow inferior because I prefer console games to PC? I prefer sitting on my couch, watching “the action” unfold on 50in of hi-def glory to sitting at my desk, watching 23in of hi-def glory…and that makes me “mainstream” discounts my opinions- whatever they may be- and demands that I worship COD? (Which I have never played, btw, not a fan of FPS).

I can’t even take the rest of what he’s saying into account.

Don’t get me wrong, I like my PC, I would even say I enjoy the gameplay of the PC better than the console, but I simply prefer the comforts my living room provides when I’m embarking on a 40+hr gameplay journey.

I didn’t realize that made me “more of a casual-type of players who are into the COD and button-mashing wave”. And I realize he put “mostly” in the next line, as if that means he wasn't lumping us all together.

Because clearly, I have a totally different experience in my games based on the number of button hits I make vs the number of mouse clicks a PC player makes?

Modifié par Squeeze the Fish, 19 avril 2011 - 03:27 .


#718
Roxlimn

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I love how this thread is turning out. Thanks to all participants for all the content on both sides!

Boiny Bunny:

Minor point: DA2 Companion Status confer character-based and Hawke-based bonuses based on how you choose to treat that companion. Some people prefer to Rival Fenris just for the gameplay bonus.

So choosing to rival or friend a companion in DA2 actually has a gameplay effect.

#719
Shadowbanner

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Amazon UK has lowered the price of DA2 yet again. Selling now at only 12 pounds the PC version.

It's even selling cheaper than the ultimate edition of DA:O.

Modifié par Shadowbanner, 19 avril 2011 - 07:51 .


#720
AkiKishi

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Shadowbanner wrote...

Amazon UK has lowered the price of DA2 yet again. Selling now at only 12 pounds the PC version.

It's even selling cheaper than the ultimate edition of DA:O.


Ive been watching the Amazon PS3 price all day it started at £27 went upto £30 and now it's down to £19.98. I just happen to have the window open on games.

#721
Killjoy Cutter

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AlanC9 wrote...

Gatt9 wrote...
The "old guard" is not at all wedded to any formula.  We started out with AD&D,  a system which pretty much entailed no more serious Roleplaying than Diablo (Excluding later works like Dragonlance).  We then moved to AD&D 2...


Well, some of us bailed on AD&D altogether and went to Hero System, GURPS, and so forth.


I last tried to play a game using AD&D about 6 years ago, and I didn't even make it through one session.

#722
Shadowbanner

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Squeeze the Fish wrote...

This has probably been said before (I hope it has anyway) but I find myself incredibly put-off by most of what the OP was saying. By his reasoning, despite the fact that I have been playing videogames for the better part of TWO DECADES (dating myself, so what) I am somehow inferior because I prefer console games to PC? I prefer sitting on my couch, watching “the action” unfold on 50in of hi-def glory to sitting at my desk, watching 23in of hi-def glory…and that makes me “mainstream” discounts my opinions- whatever they may be- and demands that I worship COD? (Which I have never played, btw, not a fan of FPS).

I can’t even take the rest of what he’s saying into account.

Don’t get me wrong, I like my PC, I would even say I enjoy the gameplay of the PC better than the console, but I simply prefer the comforts my living room provides when I’m embarking on a 40+hr gameplay journey.

I didn’t realize that made me “more of a casual-type of players who are into the COD and button-mashing wave”. And I realize he put “mostly” in the next line, as if that means he wasn't lumping us all together.

Because clearly, I have a totally different experience in my games based on the number of button hits I make vs the number of mouse clicks a PC player makes?


Hi

Please re-read carefully what I've written as well as other posts written by me on this thread as follow-up replies.

I'm a console player myself, not a PC elitist, I've made that clear from the get-go.

It's not that I myself see console players as dumb and PC players as the pinnacle of Mankind. You've completely misundertstood my post then.

I'm writing that's the vision EA and BioWare seem to have of us mainstream console players. They equate console players to casual button-masher players. And not all of us are like this. Some are, of course.

I specifically wrote that COD players, such as myself, are not dumb. It's a mistake they (EA and Bioware) are making on misjudging their target audience, the larger slice of the cake, not to mention how they've misjudged the hardcore PC RPG gamers.

As an Xbox gamer I have no interest in my DA being "consolized" or casualized just because...I specifically wrote I'm not interested in a "Dragon Calls to Duty". I want the real deal, I want an RPG as good as PC players get. I want something similar to my DA:O experience again, not identical of course. Sequels require changes and improvements but not to the point that the game no longer feels and plays like the original DA:O as its meant to be a sequel, otherwise call it something else if its a spin-off.

In my post I was mostly being ironic putting myself in their shoes (EA's). I already made clear in a number of posts that there are bright people playing either on PC, console or both.

Precisely my argument hinges on the idea that we (= console players) are not dumb. We do not require the hand-holding and watered-down version of an RPG. We are perfectly capable of coping and grasping a complex game without resorting to a PC's 103 keys. I do not want to play a game that has been streamlined to the point its dumbed-down. RPG players, like myself, like a deeper gameplay. Hence my comment on water and oil. You cannot stick all of us in one bag.

To each his own, let us RPG lovers have our classic RPGs, and let the casual button-mashers have their action hack-n-slash games. You cannot cater to both crowds because we do not mix. And as I write a crowd of RPG lovers can be either a PC player or a console player such as myself. You cannot equate console = dumb player and PC = pinnacle of Mankind.

Now please, go and re-read my post again. You are making us console players look bad.

Modifié par Shadowbanner, 19 avril 2011 - 07:58 .


#723
AAHook2

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Let me start off by reiterating how enjoyable this thread has been. The depth of conversation mixed with the overall maturity of tone has been quite refreshing. I commend all involved as it feels like the old discussions I used to have while trolling the Lord of the Rings and Wheel of Time message boards. If we can agree on something about this series, it is the fact that it has spawned an audience that generally regards both games as an ongoing literature and a highly developed fantasy world with familiar elements, but definitely features its own voice quite well. If anything should remain consistent about this series, it should be that the depth of content inspires this level of discussion and emotional investment. Kudos to Bioware and their by and large intelligent and passionate fan base.

#724
abaris

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Squeeze the Fish wrote...

Don’t get me wrong, I like my PC, I would even say I enjoy the gameplay of the PC better than the console, but I simply prefer the comforts my living room provides when I’m embarking on a 40+hr gameplay journey.


But you're obviously not into using mods. You're stuck with what vanilla the game company offers you and you're obviously content with that.

Don't get me wrong, nothing's wrong with that. But games being catered to consoles as the primary medium have to keep it simple. There's only so much you can do with the console interface, but since you're also on the PC, you probably know that.

But, as I always say, a player being overwhelmed by the content can always leave something out at their leisure. But a player being underwhelmed by what is offered, can't add what isn't there to begin with. And that's the main problem I see with games like DAII. And dumbed down should be read in this sense, not in the sense of the players being village idiots.

#725
Mick301981

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Il Divo wrote...

Gatt9 wrote...

We're quite flexible,  it's the latest trend of releasing Adventure games or Shooters and calling them RPGs that irks us,  the continual removal of RPG mechanics that bugs us.  It's the constant attack upon us that fires us up,  like Laidlaw,  Gaider,  and Bethseda's Todd Berkible,  who continually feel the need to label us as "Unworthy whiners" while releasing compartively crappy games clearly designed for people who hate RPGs.


And yet, if this is true, I'm curious why Bioware did not choose to label BG II, Kotor, etc as RPG/Adventure games  if this is really the case. Hell, that would make Mass Effect an RPG/adventure/tps hybrid.

We kept our piece while we watched RPGs slowly devolved from the highpoints reached with Fallout,  BG2,  and Plancescape.  It's when we started getting attacked for wanting RPGs that we started getting firey.  Go read any of the interviews with any of those guys,  the theme is always the same,  "All of those people aren't worthy because they won't accept what *I* claim to be the future or RPGs,  it's all their fault!"


Apologies that we can't all settle for copy and paste AD&D mechanics. It's even more laughable that this is regarded as the 'highpoint' of RPGs as you have defined them. If I want to play DnD, I'll call up my group down the street. I don't need Bioware releasing Dungeons and Dragons 3.0 for the millionth time. Jade Empire's combat system ended up having more originality than all of Baldur's Gate II and Planescape: Torment put together.  

If Bioware wants to sell me RPGs,  then they need to sell me RPGs,  not something sterilized for people who hate RPGs.  There's a hundred other games our there for them,  there's no need to turn everything into it.


Talk to most people who enjoyed Planescape Torment and Baldur's Gate II. For more than a few, the experience was not "ZOMG NUMBERS!!!!" that made it incredible, but about the incredibly well-told story in which they had the opportunity to play a part. Actual 'role-playing'.


I've actually been toying with the idea of getting Baldur's Gate.

The story seems really good, and as it is a 13 year old game, my POS laptop may actually be able to run the game.:lol:

Checked out the BG forms, and wow the gameplay mechanics seem very daunting.

Short version: I would like to play the game for the story, but I'm not sure if I could handle the gameplay.

Modifié par Mick301981, 19 avril 2011 - 07:37 .