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Polarized reviews explained. BioWare is at a crossroads.


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#51
AlexXIV

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Upsettingshorts wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

No. If it was a fact and I denied it, then it would be denial. But if I just say I don't believe a word you say, then it is just me not believing a word you say.


You're denying that another perspective is valid because you believe that it is fueled by a tangentially related agenda. 

And you deny that I am right about it. Your opinion, my opinion. At least it is more likely that someone who doesn't like it claims that he likes it because he/she is a bioware fan, than someone liking it saying that he/she doesn't. Because that makes no sense. People who dislike Bioware don't buy/play Bioware games.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 17 avril 2011 - 03:59 .


#52
upsettingshorts

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BobSmith101 wrote...

A lot of people are marking DA2 up just because it's shiny, which is something I don't do.


Care to point these people out?

AlexXIV wrote...

And you deny that I am right about it. Your opinion, my opinion.


Because I don't follow the logic.  If I was to describe a particular aspect of DA2 that I thought was a major improvement about DAO, would you simply deduce that it was the result of mental gymnastics to validate something I actually disliked?

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 17 avril 2011 - 04:00 .


#53
AkiKishi

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Upsettingshorts wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

A lot of people are marking DA2 up just because it's shiny, which is something I don't do.


Care to point these people out?


Read the reviews.

#54
AlexXIV

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Upsettingshorts wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

A lot of people are marking DA2 up just because it's shiny, which is something I don't do.


Care to point these people out?

You.

lol j/k

I had to do it, it was so inviting.

#55
upsettingshorts

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BobSmith101 wrote...

Read the reviews.


That's not really pointing.  Got a link?  A quote maybe?  Something that doesn't follow up "this new thing is better" with a "because?"

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 17 avril 2011 - 04:06 .


#56
Tantum Dic Verbo

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I can't wait for DA3.

#57
AlexXIV

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Tantum Dic Verbo wrote...

I can't wait for DA3.

You can. And you will.

#58
Roxlimn

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TheMadCat:

It's a hybrid between action game design in the manner of Diablo, and party-based tactical design in the manner of DA:O. There is no other game on sale in recent memory that's quite like it. There doesn't seem to be any game on the horizon that will be similar.

#59
TheMadCat

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Upsettingshorts wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

A lot of people are marking DA2 up just because it's shiny, which is something I don't do.


Care to point these people out?


Well, the one area BioWare really did try to make serious strides was the atheistic department; mechanics, story structure, design, etc, really didn't get any drastic change. I'd say by default people who liked DA2 more then Origins liked it because of the "shiny".

TheMadCat:

It's a hybrid between action game design in the manner
of Diablo, and party-based tactical design in the manner of DA:O.
There is no other game on sale in recent memory that's quite like it.
There doesn't seem to be any game on the horizon that will be similar.


Mass Effect? Jade Empire?

Modifié par TheMadCat, 17 avril 2011 - 04:05 .


#60
Sith Grey Warden

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I'm 16 and I play on the Xbox, yet I would consider myself to be more in the "traditional RPG" camp than the button-mashing CoD crowd. It was KOTOR that got me into this as I was a die-hard Star Wars fan until a couple of years ago. Bioware can capture a new generation of gamers if it just sticks to its roots and does what it's good at. Just because we weren't born before 1990 doesn't mean we don't have brains.

#61
Tantum Dic Verbo

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AlexXIV wrote...

Tantum Dic Verbo wrote...

I can't wait for DA3.

You can. And you will.


I hope waiting is involved.  I suspect that it will be very well done, but still not the game many Bioware fans want.

#62
Roxlimn

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TheMadCat:

Mass Effect?!? Jade Empire?!? I... ...have you even played those games? Mass Effect is a frickin' shooter. Jade Empire is closer, but it's still not quite the same.

Also, no drastic change in story design?!?  I...  ...have you played DA2?  I mean, really?  It doesn't appear like you even know what's in it.

Modifié par Roxlimn, 17 avril 2011 - 04:06 .


#63
upsettingshorts

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TheMadCat wrote...

Well, the one area BioWare really did try to make serious strides was the atheistic department; mechanics, story, design, etc, really didn't get any drastic change. I'd say by default people who liked DA2 more then Origins liked it because of the "shiny".


Heh, you'll have people in both the pro and con camp who would vehemently dispute your assertion that the mechanics, story, and design didn't get drastically changed as well.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 17 avril 2011 - 04:05 .


#64
TheMadCat

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Roxlimn wrote...

TheMadCat:

Mass Effect?!? Jade Empire?!? I... ...have you even played those games? Mass Effect is a frickin' shooter. Jade Empire is closer, but it's still not quite the same.


Design principle is the same though, twitch based that encompases traditional RPG elements such as play stats and skills which you improve and customize over the course of the game. Being a shooter is irrelevant from the fact it's cast in a similar mold to the older ARPG's.


Upsettingshorts wrote...

Heh, you'll have people in both
the pro and con camp who would vehemently dispute your assertion that
the mechanics, story, and design didn't get drastically changed as well.


I'm sure they would, and several have tried. But none have convinced that beyond aesthetics there is any serious design differences. At it's roots DA2's mechanics don't stray far off from Origins mechanics. There's little things here and there sure, but I'm looking at the big picture from high up here. The drastic changes are purely atheistical.

Modifié par TheMadCat, 17 avril 2011 - 04:14 .


#65
AlexXIV

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Upsettingshorts wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

A lot of people are marking DA2 up just because it's shiny, which is something I don't do.


Care to point these people out?

AlexXIV wrote...

And you deny that I am right about it. Your opinion, my opinion.


Because I don't follow the logic.  If I was to describe a particular aspect of DA2 that I thought was a major improvement about DAO, would you simply deduce that it was the result of mental gymnastics to validate something I actually disliked?

Oh I am certain you like some of the changes and improvements. So do I. I am not saying it is all bad. But Bioware failed in whatever they tried to succeed. Getting a broader fanbase, etc. I would personally rate the game a 7/10 or 8/10, so there must be good things in it. Just people saying that it is better or much better than DA:O pretty much must be attracted by the art style and combat. There is nothing else DA2 improved compared to DA:O. Oh wait, the voiced protagonist. Ok but what else?

Modifié par AlexXIV, 17 avril 2011 - 04:07 .


#66
Gatt9

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@OP

You've got an enourmous number of errors and assumptions in there that pretty much invalidate your whole point.  The biggest of which is your constant assumption that younger=more,  older=less.  You *might* want to refer to this...

http://www.theesa.com/facts/index.asp

Please note these two keys points...

  • The average game player is 34 years old and has been playing games for 12 years.

  • The average age of the most frequent game purchaser is 40 years old.


Modifié par Gatt9, 17 avril 2011 - 04:12 .


#67
naughty99

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Shadowbanner wrote...

I believe BioWare chose to expand its existing fanbase and reach out for casual players (mainstream console). They decided that it was a worthwhile tradeoff to sacrifice a few old grumpy diehard hard-core RPG fans in exchange of appealing to a much larger, younger crowd and in the process make more money, BIG money.


The thing is, I'm an old school grumpy pen and paper RPG and RTS fan in my 30s, I generally find FPS games extremely boring and I have never in my entire life played any game on Xbox or PS3. The last console I owned was the NES about 20 years ago. And I liked DA2.

I found the combat in DA2 to be a huge improvement over DAO because it requires a lot more tactical thought and planning. Nightmare mode in DAO was a joke because you could simply spam cheap healing potions to get through anything. Nightmare in DA2 kicks my ass, repeatedly. I don't use tactics, rather I control every party member through pausing and I have to do a lot more thinking to survive tough battles. And I die frequently! Most tough battles I have to reload many times and often barely survive with only one or two party members left.

I love the "waves" and the massive HP for enemies, as well as characters spawning on top of me, etc., because it makes the game a lot more challenging. I realize many people hate these very same elements, but in my case I found them to be a huge improvement over DAO because DAO combat was not challenging enough. 

I also found the character progression and party member selection to be a lot more balanced than DAO (although I will admit Isabella is a bit underpowered on Nightmare). Mages are still very powerful, but all of the classes and each companion has some benefits and drawbacks and the most powerful attacks are only possible by careful tactical coordination with a balanced party composition.

The result is that the design of the skill trees, as well as factors like cooldowns and armor requirements make each level up decision more difficult, which is an improvement to balance IMO. In DAO I recall for my mages I would put all my points into Magic and end up with 100+ magic nuke spell combo monsters who would spam cheap lyrium potions for mana. The "total damage dealt" stats for mages were always orders of magnitude higher than other classes in DAO. In DA2 I have to think a bit more carefully how to progress each party member at level up.

Loved the art direction, the new companions, the more personal story with stakes relating to family instead of "saving the world." The dialogue writing and voice performances were solid across the board and in particular Jo Wyatt (FemHawke), Victoria Kruger (Isabela) and Eve Myles (Merril) were especially engaging. Merril's Welsh accent was cute and when she was in the party it felt a bit like hanging out with Torchwood. I was blown away by the character design for the new Qunari and the default FemHawke was simply stunning.

With the high res texture pack installed, at Very High Quality on 1920x1080, DX11, SSAO, Diffusion DOF, High Quality Blur, 16 x AF, 2 x AA, the game looked fantastic and I was surprised that I got excellent frame rates playing on my laptop. The detail in some of the scenes with shiny golden statues, grey clouds moving in the background, even a few birds in the sky, was incredible, even when projected huge on the wall with my 1080p projector.

There are also a couple of things I intensely disliked about DA2. The poorly executed fetch quests gave me a lot of grief. (The ones where you find some item in a chest and then a random person on the street gives you gold.) I would only read my journal description of the quest after the fact to figure out why the hell the guy just gave me gold. If only these quests could have been given by the quest giver in a dialogue, or at a minimum posted on a Mage's board or Chanter's board, then they would feel like "real" quests.

I felt that the Arishok duel needed a better level design. Unless you have a carefully planned build like IN1's DW assassin build, the duel ends up being 45 minutes of kiting around the pillars.

I also dislike the choice to make all the loot generic. If I find or pick up a book, even if it is "junk" let me click on it and read it. I'd love to be able to discard items and see what they look like in-game. I don't have a problem with a "junk" inventory tab, but perhaps it is somthing psychological to do with the fact that all the icons for junk items looked so similar, it seemed that they were all not even worthy of having individual names or descriptions. I was really disappointed that Keeper Marathari gave me a book that turned out to be junk and not readable or clickable. 

I didn't mind the recycled area maps.

The only bug that really bugged me was the fact that Disorienting Shot does not work. Hopefully that will be fixed in Patch 1.03.

I haven't made it to the end yet (110 hrs on my first playthrough at the beginning of Act 3 and 71 hrs on my Patch 1.02 playthrough at the middle of Act 2), and I have heard some complaints that your quest choices throughout the game don't have enough impact on the ending. If that is the case, I imagine I will be quite disappointed, but I can't comment on this yet.

Overall, taking into account the massive amount of negative hype for this game I find it to be extremely underrated. The time for each playthrough and the amount of time I've enjoyed playing so far, is much longer than any of my
DAO playthroughs. I'm glad that I pre-ordered and if it were not for the fetch quests, I would say that I liked the game more than DAO.

Modifié par naughty99, 17 avril 2011 - 04:44 .


#68
upsettingshorts

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Without getting into specifics I'd say that they tried to "rip the Band-Aid" and create a fresh start for the Dragon Age franchise. What they decided to do with those changes is indeed polarizing in the true sense of the term, but they certainly changed the paradigm for a future sequel in a big way and in that sense they did succeed.  Did they get everything perfectly right? Of course not. I do expect - and indeed hope - that DA3 will be an improved DA2 and not a return to DAO.

Personally the list of things DA2 did worse than DAO would be shorter and easier to list than the improvements, but that is as I said just my own personal view. Obviously the reused areas and the clumsily executed wave mechanics would be a good start. This isn't really the thread for me to go point by point in a comparative review, though.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 17 avril 2011 - 04:15 .


#69
Cataca

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AlexXIV wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

A lot of people are marking DA2 up just because it's shiny, which is something I don't do.


Care to point these people out?

AlexXIV wrote...

And you deny that I am right about it. Your opinion, my opinion.


Because I don't follow the logic.  If I was to describe a particular aspect of DA2 that I thought was a major improvement about DAO, would you simply deduce that it was the result of mental gymnastics to validate something I actually disliked?

Oh I am certain you like some of the changes and improvements. So do I. I am not saying it is all bad. But Bioware failed in whatever they tried to succeed. Getting a broader fanbase, etc. I would personally rate the game a 7/10 or 8/10, so there must be good things in it. Just people saying that it is better or much better than DA:O pretty much must be attracted by the art style and combat. There is nothing else DA2 improved compared to DA:O. Oh wait, the voiced protagonist. Ok but what else?


It was also shorter, according to some peoples arguments, that clearly is an improvement.

#70
Roxlimn

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TheMadCat:

Design principle is the same though, twitch based that encompases traditional RPG elements such as play stats and skills which you improve and customize over the course of the game. Being a shooter is irrelevant from the fact it's cast in a similar mold to the older ARPG's.


I can't believe you're saying that there's no relevant design difference between a shooter and an action RPG. Your perception and understanding of game design isn't granular enough for me to explain how DA2 is a unique game, since it's apparently similar to such disparate things as brawlers and shooters.

#71
Dragoonlordz

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Upsettingshorts wrote...

Without getting into specifics I'd say that they tried to "rip the Band-Aid" and create a fresh start for the Dragon Age franchise. What they decided to do with those changes is indeed polarizing in the true sense of the term, but they certainly changed the paradigm for a future sequel in a big way and in that sense they did succeed.  Did they get everything perfectly right? Of course not. I do expect - and indeed hope - that DA3 will be an improved DA2 and not a return to DAO.

Personally the list of things DA2 did worse than DAO would be shorter and easier to list than the improvements, but that is as I said just my own personal view. Obviously the reused areas and the clumsily executed wave mechanics would be a good start. This isn't really the thread for me to go point by point in a comparative review, though.


If you make a claim, back it up. I await your list. Image IPB

#72
upsettingshorts

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Dragoonlordz wrote...

If you make a claim, back it up. I await your list.


I do plan such a long TL:DR post, but I wouldn't hold my breath for it.  I'll get around to it... eventually.  I might even wait until after I've played through The Witcher 2 a couple of times so I can make more relevant and contemporary comparisons.  

One cavaet of note is that the aspects of a game that truly get on my nerves take a while to... really get on my nerves.  DAO I've played more than enough times to know what really bugs me about it.  I need to play DA2 a little longer to have that same sort of cynicism, heh.  

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 17 avril 2011 - 04:27 .


#73
TheMadCat

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Roxlimn wrote...
I can't believe you're saying that there's no relevant design difference between a shooter and an action RPG. Your perception and understanding of game design isn't granular enough for me to explain how DA2 is a unique game, since it's apparently similar to such disparate things as brawlers and shooters.


Again the fact it's a "shooter" is irrelevant, an ARPG uses twitch based combat with progressive stats and skills to drive the actual success of the twitched based combat. Please though, feel free to explain why it's so fundemtnaly different mechanicly between pressing a buttion and swining a sword and pressing a buttion and firing a laser when they both still rely on the stats and skills of the character. 

#74
upsettingshorts

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DA2 has one twitch element, the fact you can move a character to avoid an attack. It's still a long way from a twitch game, like Oblivion or Mount & Blade, where you physically direct the motion of your attacks through keyboard and mouse commands.

#75
_Motoki_

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mdugger12 wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

I prefer my first person narrative player vs. third person narrative player theory.

Many previous Bioware games were in my opinion implicitly third person narratives. But they didn't go so far as to demand that everyone have this view. Adding a voiceover and a paraphrase system makes the games explicitly third person. So if you always played Bioware games as a third person narrative, this doesn't bother you and is possibly seen as an improvement. If you always played Bioware games as a first person narrative, this is a radical departure.

In terms of the feel of combat and the aesthetics of the animations and such, I don't think that's indicative of much else beyond simple aesthetic preference. If you mod out the exploding bodies, or don't have a DW rogue on your team, the game looks really damn close to Origins, it's just faster.


This is one of the underlying issues that really explains why people are so split on this game.
 
I think alot goes into the different perceptions of what was great about DA:O. While obviously there was plenty for the "hardcore fans" to love the original game also had tons of things that appealed to so-called "mainstream" console gamers. For an afterthought port to sell 3.2 million on consoles you have to know that a large portion of those numbers weren't because of any "old school RPG" sensibilities the original may have had. 

Also, for a lot of the console fans that may not have been fans of  Bioware's PC titles, there was a lot of brand goodwill built up from Mass Effect. Which, while ME admittedly is a bit of a different experience than DA:O, there are enough similar elements that a fan could be more than satisfied.

So while it may seem like there were all these big changes most of the issues people have with the game are either elements that were actually present in DA:O just not as blatant, or elements that a large portion of Bioware or DA:O fans saw as a natural progression rather than something shocking. 

DA 2 didn't go in some new direction to pander to some younger market or casual fans. They made a few concessions to fans that, while so called "hardcore gamers" may be dismissive of, were fans of the original too and were just as instrumental in that games success as the old school gamers.

For what it's worth, I always view my games, even D:AO, as playing in the 3rd person and if given a choice I prefer a voiced protagonist. Having said that, I still think DA2 is a poor, rushed game and that DA:O is far superior.

For me the choices were a bogus facade because in most cases you really didn't have a choice and the game was just going to do the same thing no matter what you did. Even in the very beginning you can pretty much tell Flemeth off and she still helps you and I kept trying to find a more reputable and honorable way to get into Kirkwall and became frustrated that there wasn't. I felt like why even bother offer the choice and I just stopped caring what I picked.

I thought the story was not that great or even coherent at times, the characters, with a few exceptions, less interesting and the game on the whole had this sort of snarky, swaggery attitude that I didn't care for. DA:O just had more heart to me.

There's good and bad in every genre and subgenre of game and I just think that even for the type of game they were trying to do DA2 just isn't a very good one in my opinion.

I also think if you go and make a radically different direct sequel to a game then you shouldn't act surprised when people are disappointed. If you want to do something different that is fine, do a new series or even a spin off from an existing series or a side story. Once you put that 2 or 3 or whatever at the end of a name there come certain expectations with that.

Modifié par _Motoki_, 17 avril 2011 - 04:28 .