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Polarized reviews explained. BioWare is at a crossroads.


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#726
erynnar

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abaris wrote...

Squeeze the Fish wrote...

Don’t get me wrong, I like my PC, I would even say I enjoy the gameplay of the PC better than the console, but I simply prefer the comforts my living room provides when I’m embarking on a 40+hr gameplay journey.


But you're obviously not into using mods. You're stuck with what vanilla the game company offers you and you're obviously content with that.

Don't get me wrong, nothing's wrong with that. But games being catered to consoles as the primary medium have to keep it simple. There's only so much you can do with the console interface, but since you're also on the PC, you probably know that.

But, as I always say, a player being overwhelmed by the content can always leave something out at their leisure. But a player being underwhelmed by what is offered, can't add what isn't there to begin with. And that's the main problem I see with games like DAII. And dumbed down should be read in this sense, not in the sense of the players being village idiots.

 

This ^I am a PC player, and I am one who despises when console players are talked down as knuckle dragging mouth breathers who need simple games. I loathe that attitude as much as being labled elitist and hater. So believe me I am on console players' sides. I have friends who play all three platforms or just console.  And yeah it can be overwhelming on content, but it is easier to ignore more than to ignore less (or what isn't there). That was a major problem I had with DA2 (one of many).  I have friends who console play DAO and loved it, no one has told me they love DA2...yet. *shrugs*

#727
Shadowbanner

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AAHook2 wrote...

Let me start off by reiterating how enjoyable this thread has been. The depth of conversation mixed with the overall maturity of tone has been quite refreshing. I commend all involved as it feels like the old discussions I used to have while trolling the Lord of the Rings and Wheel of Time message boards. If we can agree on something about this series, it is the fact that it has spawned an audience that generally regards both games as an ongoing literature and a highly developed fantasy world with familiar elements, but definitely features its own voice quite well. If anything should remain consistent about this series, it should be that the depth of content inspires this level of discussion and emotional investment. Kudos to Bioware and their by and large intelligent and passionate fan base.


Yes, kudos to BioWare.

#728
Shadowbanner

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BobSmith101 wrote...

Shadowbanner wrote...

Amazon UK has lowered the price of DA2 yet again. Selling now at only 12 pounds the PC version.

It's even selling cheaper than the ultimate edition of DA:O.


Ive been watching the Amazon PS3 price all day it started at £27 went upto £30 and now it's down to £19.98. I just happen to have the window open on games.


What a roller coaster.

#729
Gatt9

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Il Divo wrote...

Gatt9 wrote...

We're quite flexible,  it's the latest trend of releasing Adventure games or Shooters and calling them RPGs that irks us,  the continual removal of RPG mechanics that bugs us.  It's the constant attack upon us that fires us up,  like Laidlaw,  Gaider,  and Bethseda's Todd Berkible,  who continually feel the need to label us as "Unworthy whiners" while releasing compartively crappy games clearly designed for people who hate RPGs.


And yet, if this is true, I'm curious why Bioware did not choose to label BG II, Kotor, etc as RPG/Adventure games  if this is really the case. Hell, that would make Mass Effect an RPG/adventure/tps hybrid.

We kept our piece while we watched RPGs slowly devolved from the highpoints reached with Fallout,  BG2,  and Plancescape.  It's when we started getting attacked for wanting RPGs that we started getting firey.  Go read any of the interviews with any of those guys,  the theme is always the same,  "All of those people aren't worthy because they won't accept what *I* claim to be the future or RPGs,  it's all their fault!"


Apologies that we can't all settle for copy and paste AD&D mechanics. It's even more laughable that this is regarded as the 'highpoint' of RPGs as you have defined them. If I want to play DnD, I'll call up my group down the street. I don't need Bioware releasing Dungeons and Dragons 3.0 for the millionth time. Jade Empire's combat system ended up having more originality than all of Baldur's Gate II and Planescape: Torment put together.  

If Bioware wants to sell me RPGs,  then they need to sell me RPGs,  not something sterilized for people who hate RPGs.  There's a hundred other games our there for them,  there's no need to turn everything into it.


Talk to most people who enjoyed Planescape Torment and Baldur's Gate II. For more than a few, the experience was not "ZOMG NUMBERS!!!!" that made it incredible, but about the incredibly well-told story in which they had the opportunity to play a part. Actual 'role-playing'.


You've got so many problems in there it seriously isn't worth my time to make a full post.  I'll just deal with the major three.

1.  Now would be a good time for you to realize Fallout wasn't based on D&D.

2.  Now would also be a good time to post your definitive survey of everyone who played those games clearly showing that none of their fun was derived from the character based system.

3.  Now would be a *really* good time to note the huge difference between your "Roleplaying" (Which is actually defined as LARPs judging from your post) and an RPG.  Defined character vs you as the character,  two completely different concepts.

Modifié par Gatt9, 19 avril 2011 - 08:34 .


#730
Squeeze the Fish

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They equate console players to casual button-masher players. And not all of us are like this. Some are, of course.

Now please, go and re-read my post again. You are making us console players look bad.


I must be confused then-


Then we have a second, much larger crowd (ergo more dollars), that are more of a casual-type of players who are into the COD and button-mashing wave.



So basically DA2 was streamlined or dumbed-down to accomodate it to mainstream console players who, apparently under the eyes of EA and BioWare, prefer simpler action games that require less thinking and more button-mashing.


As a result we have a half-baked game that is a half-hearted hybrid between an RPG and some dumb console button-masher action wannabe Street Fighter VII.

I apologize that my interpretation of what you were trying to say didn't match with what you're actually trying to say, as it seems was the case. I hope you can see how it happened, but if not, it's not really worth arguing over- I understand now what you were trying to say and again I apologize.

In any case, I don't think your personal insult at the end there was needed.

Modifié par Squeeze the Fish, 19 avril 2011 - 09:39 .


#731
Squeeze the Fish

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abaris wrote...

Squeeze the Fish wrote...

Don’t get me wrong, I like my PC, I would even say I enjoy the gameplay of the PC better than the console, but I simply prefer the comforts my living room provides when I’m embarking on a 40+hr gameplay journey.


But you're obviously not into using mods. You're stuck with what vanilla the game company offers you and you're obviously content with that.



Nah. It's not like that. I like mods very much.

It's just that my couch is very comfortable.Image IPB

Modifié par Squeeze the Fish, 19 avril 2011 - 09:56 .


#732
Macrake

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I'm 24 and been here since bg1. Late thirties whaddafack? Their core audience is 18-35.

Other than that you're pretty much correct.

#733
AAHook2

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I think what's really gone wrong from Origins to this sequel is that the storytelling was inconsistent. It's awkward to see some people defending Dragon Age 2's storytelling as just being different and therefore we have a lack of appreciation from those who prefer Origin's story. When I heard that the story was going to be structured around Varric retelling events that have already happened, I didn't see this as a problem. In fact, I thought of it as an opportunity.
I was upset that the decision was made to limit the race selection for Hawke to human. As one can tell I really only related to the Dwarf story from Origins. It was what sang to me when I played. Then when news came out that a Dwarf rogue would be the one telling the tale I began to hope that this was an opportunity to expand the perspective of how the story unfolded. Maybe BioWare would do something very smart and allow the player to choose to have their hero actually be one of the supporting companions. Maybe a player could choose to spin the tale with Varric or maybe Anders as the main catalyst for the narrative. Alas, that was overreaching on my part and far too ambitious a task for Bioware to accomplish.

One could forgive me though for thinking that a Roshomon type narrative structure would make for endless replay-ability, and would probably stand out from just about every RPG out there to date. I did see signs in Dragon Age 2 that this could have been done. Varric's embellishment of what happened at his brother's mansion comes to mind. Hawke having the option to defer to his or her companions... The need for Hawke to be the absolute hero and franchise character is at this point, not cutting edge. I think people never asked for that, frankly. I don't imagine people being done with Origins and thinking;
"Gee, I wish my Warden were more linear and less unique from everyone else's Warden. They should really work on another character that's more universal for everyone to play in the sequel. That's never been done before certainly."
That's not cutting edge. That's as old as Link and Mario, having a predefined main character. I take issue with some of the arguments that say that people aren't interested in playing as themselves in these games. I argue that in Origins, no matter what character you chose, that character eventually is you. You chose the dialogue you deem appropriate for the Warden to say. You choose based on your personal feelings or what you feel the Warden's path would be given a situational decision. It is you. I personally felt so detached from Hawke, and not because I played her as a female mage. The storytelling was so full of holes, I really wasn't sure who Hawke was half. the time. I honestly came to the end of the game and the decisions that I had to make and I had no idea what to do, because I had such a vague idea what Hawke would actually decide as far as her heart would say. She's a mage. That basically decided it. It really didn't make a difference it turns out. The character...just disappointed me. I have no information to make decisions upon. I don't know what Hawke was like as a child. Hawke's name comes from her father, but I know nothing about this man. Nothing. What were the Hawkes doing before the Blight? What was their situation? Were they wealthy, poor...in political trouble, celebrated. Why do I care?

In Origins I cared about my Warden. I cared about his companions. I cared about his story. Before his quest began, I knew something about his life. I knew what was at stake for him and it was part of the larger struggle of the narrative. In Kirkwall, everything was disjointed. It all never came together and when the end came to try to bring some sort of structural breakdown, it just seemed like a decision at gunpoint. It was random and odd and I wasn't sure if I would care about everything that was asked of me at that point. Still, I was forced to make a decision. It felt unfair. I didn't feel like I came far or accomplished much of anything, or that what Hawke was doing was this monumental thing.
Cassandra is looking for Hawke because he or she is the only one to stop the world from tipping over on the brink of war. So Varric explains 10 years of events, and then I still have no idea how finding Hawke is supposed to stop a war. I'm not even exactly sure what this war is actually about. I have a general idea, but it is so indirect to what Varric has told, I'm not even sure what I think the war is about is actually what it's about.
There were some really nice bits of storytelling scattered about the game, but it simply never came together in a way that made sense or seemed complete.
Bioware took a big gamble by restructuring their narrative, and I think it was a poor decision. You can feel the momentum just swing. To turn so sharply away from the structure that the audience of the first game loved so much was rash and ultimately foolish, sad to say.

#734
Sacred_Fantasy

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AAHook2 wrote...
The character...just disappointed me. I have no information to make decisions upon. I don't know what Hawke was like as a child. Hawke's name comes from her father, but I know nothing about this man. Nothing. What were the Hawkes doing before the Blight? What was their situation? Were they wealthy, poor...in political trouble, celebrated. Why do I care?

DA 2 is third person narrative. Hawke is third person character. You are not Hawke. BioWare character is Hawke. Emotional bonding such as care has minimal value compare to character interaction with the world. It's all about the story. 

AAHook2 wrote...
In Origins I cared about my Warden. I cared about his companions. I cared about his story. Before his quest began, I knew something about his life. I knew what was at stake for him and it was part of the larger struggle of the narrative.

DA O is first person narrative. Warden is first person character. You are the warden. Emotional bonding is very high compare to character interaction with the world. It's all about journeying your fantasy personally.

AAHook2 wrote...
In Kirkwall, everything was disjointed. It all never came together and when the end came to try to bring some sort of structural breakdown, it just seemed like a decision at gunpoint. It was random and odd and I wasn't sure if I would care about everything that was asked of me at that point. Still, I was forced to make a decision. It felt unfair. I didn't feel like I came far or accomplished much of anything, or that what Hawke was doing was this monumental thing.
Cassandra is looking for Hawke because he or she is the only one to stop the world from tipping over on the brink of war. So Varric explains 10 years of events, and then I still have no idea how finding Hawke is supposed to stop a war. I'm not even exactly sure what this war is actually about. I have a general idea, but it is so indirect to what Varric has told, I'm not even sure what I think the war is about is actually what it's about.
There were some really nice bits of storytelling scattered about the game, but it simply never came together in a way that made sense or seemed complete.
Bioware took a big gamble by restructuring their narrative, and I think it was a poor decision. You can feel the momentum just swing. To turn so sharply away from the structure that the audience of the first game loved so much was rash and ultimately foolish, sad to say.

DA 2 make sense of third person storytelling. You are not meant to be active actor but rather as a puppet master who remotely control puppet called Hawke from afar either with controller or mouse and keyboard.  The focus is about character interactivity with the story. And the story ONLY pinpoint most important event to Hawke in a manner of flashback. 

Your point of view is irrelevant by third person player. And before you jump at me, I'm hardcore first person player.

#735
Killjoy Cutter

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In other words, interactive movie game, not RPG.

It's a shame that this is where the computer gaming industry is headed...

#736
cljqnsnyc

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Sacred_Fantasy wrote...

AAHook2 wrote...
The character...just disappointed me. I have no information to make decisions upon. I don't know what Hawke was like as a child. Hawke's name comes from her father, but I know nothing about this man. Nothing. What were the Hawkes doing before the Blight? What was their situation? Were they wealthy, poor...in political trouble, celebrated. Why do I care?

DA 2 is third person narrative. Hawke is third person character. You are not Hawke. BioWare character is Hawke. Emotional bonding such as care has minimal value compare to character interaction with the world. It's all about the story. 

AAHook2 wrote...
In Origins I cared about my Warden. I cared about his companions. I cared about his story. Before his quest began, I knew something about his life. I knew what was at stake for him and it was part of the larger struggle of the narrative.

DA O is first person narrative. Warden is first person character. You are the warden. Emotional bonding is very high compare to character interaction with the world. It's all about journeying your fantasy personally.

AAHook2 wrote...
In Kirkwall, everything was disjointed. It all never came together and when the end came to try to bring some sort of structural breakdown, it just seemed like a decision at gunpoint. It was random and odd and I wasn't sure if I would care about everything that was asked of me at that point. Still, I was forced to make a decision. It felt unfair. I didn't feel like I came far or accomplished much of anything, or that what Hawke was doing was this monumental thing.
Cassandra is looking for Hawke because he or she is the only one to stop the world from tipping over on the brink of war. So Varric explains 10 years of events, and then I still have no idea how finding Hawke is supposed to stop a war. I'm not even exactly sure what this war is actually about. I have a general idea, but it is so indirect to what Varric has told, I'm not even sure what I think the war is about is actually what it's about.
There were some really nice bits of storytelling scattered about the game, but it simply never came together in a way that made sense or seemed complete.
Bioware took a big gamble by restructuring their narrative, and I think it was a poor decision. You can feel the momentum just swing. To turn so sharply away from the structure that the audience of the first game loved so much was rash and ultimately foolish, sad to say.

DA 2 make sense of third person storytelling. You are not meant to be active actor but rather as a puppet master who remotely control puppet called Hawke from afar either with controller or mouse and keyboard.  The focus is about character interactivity with the story. And the story ONLY pinpoint most important event to Hawke in a manner of flashback. 

Your point of view is irrelevant by third person player. And before you jump at me, I'm hardcore first person player.





That's an intriguing point of view. It may work for you, and that's fine. For me however, I expect immersion in an rpg. I need to feel as though I am apart of the world...which is the general idea of an rpg.........not just a spectator in an interactive film.

One of the largest mistakes DA2 makes is that YOU are more often than not, excluded from the game and are relegated to the role of witness, not participant. On far too many occasions you are irrelevant and sometimes virtually invisable...especailly if you're playing a mage. We are being asked to accept too much with very little explanation or reason. A good story has a beginning, a middle, and an ending.  It has a focus and makes sense. Even a framed narrative has a constant thread woven throughout the tale being told. DA2 seemed more to me like a series of instances instead of a complete story that failed to work as a whole.  We are aware of nothing but are being told by the game to accept everything.  Even the start of this tale expected me to accept what was happening without a proper introduction, no motivation, and very little reasoning.

So for me, the point of view the story attempts to use as a foundation fails because the story itself doesn't work. The idea of DA2 was actually a very good concept and had it been presented properly, would have been among the best of Bioware's games. Sadly, the best of intentions and the greatest of ideas are meaningless without proper execution.  Suspension of disbelief can only go so far.

With all discussions however, this is merely a personal opinion and in no way invalidates the way you saw the game.  I'll never understand why it seems impossible for some to make a statement about this game without stepping on someone's toes.

Modifié par cljqnsnyc, 20 avril 2011 - 01:08 .


#737
AAHook2

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Sacred_Fantasy wrote...

AAHook2 wrote...
The character...just disappointed me. I have no information to make decisions upon. I don't know what Hawke was like as a child. Hawke's name comes from her father, but I know nothing about this man. Nothing. What were the Hawkes doing before the Blight? What was their situation? Were they wealthy, poor...in political trouble, celebrated. Why do I care?

DA 2 is third person narrative. Hawke is third person character. You are not Hawke. BioWare character is Hawke. Emotional bonding such as care has minimal value compare to character interaction with the world. It's all about the story. 

AAHook2 wrote...
In Origins I cared about my Warden. I cared about his companions. I cared about his story. Before his quest began, I knew something about his life. I knew what was at stake for him and it was part of the larger struggle of the narrative.

DA O is first person narrative. Warden is first person character. You are the warden. Emotional bonding is very high compare to character interaction with the world. It's all about journeying your fantasy personally.

AAHook2 wrote...
In Kirkwall, everything was disjointed. It all never came together and when the end came to try to bring some sort of structural breakdown, it just seemed like a decision at gunpoint. It was random and odd and I wasn't sure if I would care about everything that was asked of me at that point. Still, I was forced to make a decision. It felt unfair. I didn't feel like I came far or accomplished much of anything, or that what Hawke was doing was this monumental thing.
Cassandra is looking for Hawke because he or she is the only one to stop the world from tipping over on the brink of war. So Varric explains 10 years of events, and then I still have no idea how finding Hawke is supposed to stop a war. I'm not even exactly sure what this war is actually about. I have a general idea, but it is so indirect to what Varric has told, I'm not even sure what I think the war is about is actually what it's about.
There were some really nice bits of storytelling scattered about the game, but it simply never came together in a way that made sense or seemed complete.
Bioware took a big gamble by restructuring their narrative, and I think it was a poor decision. You can feel the momentum just swing. To turn so sharply away from the structure that the audience of the first game loved so much was rash and ultimately foolish, sad to say.

DA 2 make sense of third person storytelling. You are not meant to be active actor but rather as a puppet master who remotely control puppet called Hawke from afar either with controller or mouse and keyboard.  The focus is about character interactivity with the story. And the story ONLY pinpoint most important event to Hawke in a manner of flashback. 

Your point of view is irrelevant by third person player. And before you jump at me, I'm hardcore first person player.


Well, that's the shift isn't it? I understand this POV does effect the story. Still, you can take Alistair from Origins and essentially you learn about him as a character over a period of time even down to his childhood history from a third person POV. Or is this a 2nd person POV? He is telling you about himself via the Warden's conversations with him...Third person...
In any case, "care" is significant. Why read a story about a person you don't care about in some way? Why read a story about characters where key interactions and expostions are excluded? Basic storytelling relies on action and motivation resulting in consequence. If something happens about you are missing a key "why" in the action, you're left to poder that and it becomes a distraction. It's bad storytelling.
The fact that I know more about Alistair (a companion) and his history than I do about Hawke (the title's main protagonist) illustrates the point that the choice of narrative vehicle employed in Dragon Age 2 is flawed in comparison to Origins. If you're presenting a series that is supposed to build upon and coincide with each title, you expect the audience to follow some consistent line of storytelling. In transition from Origins to Dragon Age 2, BioWare decided not to do that. Why? What's the motovation? Change for the sake of? That's quite foolish. If the intent was to launch a new "Shepard-type" face of a series, I'd contend that Hawke is a disappointment. The point of Origins was to have the player build upon a character whose origin is established the elaborated upon throughout the game in an intriguing manner. What we had with Hawke was often uneven, disjointed and confusing by turns and altogether.
Take Alistair once more. In my playthrough of Origins he starts off as a new Warden, bastard son to the old King. He encounters a crisis which he needs help to resolve. He learns and grows, changes as this crisis unfolds to its resolution. His character is made clear; He's reluctant, hides behind sarcasm and humor, feels alone often and is scared to be alone. He has high feelings of personal loyalty to those who show him kindnesses, but can learn to respect people with strong personalities who try to do what is right, or at least what they can rationalize as being the right thing. He shies away from being the leader or the hero, yet he ended up as King of Ferelden in my game because he recognized that sacrificing what you want may be exactly what you need.
Now take Hawke. What do we know about Hawke based on what Varric tells us? We supposedly know what he/she did, but we are told up front that Varric as a source of information can be unreliable when it comes to the truth. This basically sets up a shaky framework from which we have to learn about the story in the entire game. What happens is that you get the feeling that what you are playing or seeing may not necessarily be true or real. It undermines the storytelling, and character development has that shadow of doubt which displaces the narrative. It really is convoluted when it doesn't have to be. 
Again, why? Why did BioWare feel they needed to veer so sharply away from the storytelling structure that was so successful in the original game? It really is odd. I've read some interviews by the development team trying to explain what they were aiming for with this structure, but it ultimately comes out to it being a whim of the design and writing teams. It feels like they came across the idea of this structure and thought it was interesting, but didn't really sit down to full flesh out and examine the advantages AND limitations of doing the story this way.

If you think about it Dragon Age 2's structure is perfect for a murder mystery, where the case is well defined, there is evidence to pour over and a sort of dogged will to stick to one encompassing issue to resolve. But then Dragon Age 2 is all over the place with the plot. Side plots truly are side plots which often take the audience out of the main sorty line and jaggedly tries to reinsert them into some elusive main premise after the side plot is put aside for a time. Sure, the sidequests loosely have something to do with the main plot, but it's not put together in such a way that you can clearly see the pieces fitting together. It was uneven.
Regardless of what the POV means to the overall feel of the game and the story. There are some major questions to answer here in regards to the future of this title.
WAS this game meant to be an RPG? A Mystery? An action game? Bioware has to come to grips with the fact that the core audience has been confused about the studio's motivations and hence have had their character come into question.

#738
Sacred_Fantasy

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cljqnsnyc wrote...

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...

AAHook2 wrote...
The character...just disappointed me. I have no information to make decisions upon. I don't know what Hawke was like as a child. Hawke's name comes from her father, but I know nothing about this man. Nothing. What were the Hawkes doing before the Blight? What was their situation? Were they wealthy, poor...in political trouble, celebrated. Why do I care?

DA 2 is third person narrative. Hawke is third person character. You are not Hawke. BioWare character is Hawke. Emotional bonding such as care has minimal value compare to character interaction with the world. It's all about the story. 

AAHook2 wrote...
In Origins I cared about my Warden. I cared about his companions. I cared about his story. Before his quest began, I knew something about his life. I knew what was at stake for him and it was part of the larger struggle of the narrative.

DA O is first person narrative. Warden is first person character. You are the warden. Emotional bonding is very high compare to character interaction with the world. It's all about journeying your fantasy personally.

AAHook2 wrote...
In Kirkwall, everything was disjointed. It all never came together and when the end came to try to bring some sort of structural breakdown, it just seemed like a decision at gunpoint. It was random and odd and I wasn't sure if I would care about everything that was asked of me at that point. Still, I was forced to make a decision. It felt unfair. I didn't feel like I came far or accomplished much of anything, or that what Hawke was doing was this monumental thing.
Cassandra is looking for Hawke because he or she is the only one to stop the world from tipping over on the brink of war. So Varric explains 10 years of events, and then I still have no idea how finding Hawke is supposed to stop a war. I'm not even exactly sure what this war is actually about. I have a general idea, but it is so indirect to what Varric has told, I'm not even sure what I think the war is about is actually what it's about.
There were some really nice bits of storytelling scattered about the game, but it simply never came together in a way that made sense or seemed complete.
Bioware took a big gamble by restructuring their narrative, and I think it was a poor decision. You can feel the momentum just swing. To turn so sharply away from the structure that the audience of the first game loved so much was rash and ultimately foolish, sad to say.

DA 2 make sense of third person storytelling. You are not meant to be active actor but rather as a puppet master who remotely control puppet called Hawke from afar either with controller or mouse and keyboard.  The focus is about character interactivity with the story. And the story ONLY pinpoint most important event to Hawke in a manner of flashback. 

Your point of view is irrelevant by third person player. And before you jump at me, I'm hardcore first person player.





That's an intriguing point of view. It may work for you, and that's fine. For me however, I expect immersion in an rpg. I need to feel as though I am apart of the world...which is the general idea of an rpg.........not just a spectator in an interactive film.

I understand. I value immersion above all and I too, want be part of the world too. But apparently some people manage to convince BioWare to completely ignore our preference. I merely explain why we have polarized reviews as been mentioned earlier by someone else.

cljqnsnyc wrote...
One of the largest mistakes DA2 makes is that YOU are more often than not, excluded from the game and are relegated to the role of witness, not participant. On far too many occasions you are irrelevant and sometimes virtually invisable...especailly if you're playing a mage. We are being asked to accept too much with very little explanation or reason. A good story has a beginning, a middle, and an ending.  It has a focus and makes sense. Even a framed narrative has a constant thread woven throughout the tale being told. DA2 seemed more to me like a series of instances instead of a complete story that failed to work as a whole.  We are aware of nothing but are being told by the game to accept everything.  Even the start of this tale expected me to accept what was happening without a proper introduction, no motivation, and very little reasoning.

So for me, the point of view the story attempts to use as a foundation fails because the story itself doesn't work. The idea of DA2 was actually a very good concept and had it been presented properly, would have been among the best of Bioware's games. Sadly, the best of intentions and the greatest of ideas are meaningless without proper execution.  Suspension of disbelief can only go so far.

With all discussions however, this is merely a personal opinion and in no way invalidates the way you saw the game.  I'll never understand why it seems impossible for some to make a statement about this game without stepping on someone's toes.

It never work for me. But I'm fully aware on how to play both First person and third person narrative cards.  Yet, I favored first person narrative like you do.  I dislike DA 2 storytelling mainly due to this. 

Modifié par Sacred_Fantasy, 20 avril 2011 - 01:26 .


#739
Gravbh

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Stopped reading the thread at "casual(mainstream console)". So about 9 lines down. Regardless of what has been discussed, get over yourselves pc gamers(of which I am one).

#740
Sacred_Fantasy

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AAHook2 wrote...
Well, that's the shift isn't it? I understand this POV does effect the story. Still, you can take Alistair from Origins and essentially you learn about him as a character over a period of time even down to his childhood history from a third person POV. Or is this a 2nd person POV? He is telling you about himself via the Warden's conversations with him...Third person...
In any case, "care" is significant. Why read a story about a person you don't care about in some way? Why read a story about characters where key interactions and expostions are excluded? Basic storytelling relies on action and motivation resulting in consequence. If something happens about you are missing a key "why" in the action, you're left to poder that and it becomes a distraction. It's bad storytelling.
The fact that I know more about Alistair (a companion) and his history than I do about Hawke (the title's main protagonist) illustrates the point that the choice of narrative vehicle employed in Dragon Age 2 is flawed in comparison to Origins. If you're presenting a series that is supposed to build upon and coincide with each title, you expect the audience to follow some consistent line of storytelling. In transition from Origins to Dragon Age 2, BioWare decided not to do that. Why? What's the motovation? Change for the sake of? That's quite foolish. If the intent was to launch a new "Shepard-type" face of a series, I'd contend that Hawke is a disappointment. The point of Origins was to have the player build upon a character whose origin is established the elaborated upon throughout the game in an intriguing manner. What we had with Hawke was often uneven, disjointed and confusing by turns and altogether.
Take Alistair once more. In my playthrough of Origins he starts off as a new Warden, bastard son to the old King. He encounters a crisis which he needs help to resolve. He learns and grows, changes as this crisis unfolds to its resolution. His character is made clear; He's reluctant, hides behind sarcasm and humor, feels alone often and is scared to be alone. He has high feelings of personal loyalty to those who show him kindnesses, but can learn to respect people with strong personalities who try to do what is right, or at least what they can rationalize as being the right thing. He shies away from being the leader or the hero, yet he ended up as King of Ferelden in my game because he recognized that sacrificing what you want may be exactly what you need.
Now take Hawke. What do we know about Hawke based on what Varric tells us? We supposedly know what he/she did, but we are told up front that Varric as a source of information can be unreliable when it comes to the truth. This basically sets up a shaky framework from which we have to learn about the story in the entire game. What happens is that you get the feeling that what you are playing or seeing may not necessarily be true or real. It undermines the storytelling, and character development has that shadow of doubt which displaces the narrative. It really is convoluted when it doesn't have to be. 
Again, why? Why did BioWare feel they needed to veer so sharply away from the storytelling structure that was so successful in the original game? It really is odd. I've read some interviews by the development team trying to explain what they were aiming for with this structure, but it ultimately comes out to it being a whim of the design and writing teams. It feels like they came across the idea of this structure and thought it was interesting, but didn't really sit down to full flesh out and examine the advantages AND limitations of doing the story this way.

If you think about it Dragon Age 2's structure is perfect for a murder mystery, where the case is well defined, there is evidence to pour over and a sort of dogged will to stick to one encompassing issue to resolve. But then Dragon Age 2 is all over the place with the plot. Side plots truly are side plots which often take the audience out of the main sorty line and jaggedly tries to reinsert them into some elusive main premise after the side plot is put aside for a time. Sure, the sidequests loosely have something to do with the main plot, but it's not put together in such a way that you can clearly see the pieces fitting together. It was uneven.
Regardless of what the POV means to the overall feel of the game and the story. There are some major questions to answer here in regards to the future of this title.
WAS this game meant to be an RPG? A Mystery? An action game? Bioware has to come to grips with the fact that the core audience has been confused about the studio's motivations and hence have had their character come into question.

That's exactly my thought is about. I am glad you understand where I'm heading. Which is why we need to point out every flaw DA 2 has, in term of storytelling and perspective, and make it clear to developer which part need to be change or improved. 

#741
Melca36

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Macrake wrote...

I'm 24 and been here since bg1. Late thirties whaddafack? Their core audience is 18-35.

Other than that you're pretty much correct.


This may be hard for you to grasp but older gamers are a GROWING demographic.

My husband is 42 and is a gamer. He's part of the atari/commodore generation.

Is there a law saying older people are not allowed to game? <_<

Modifié par Melca36, 20 avril 2011 - 01:26 .


#742
cljqnsnyc

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Melca36 wrote...

Macrake wrote...

I'm 24 and been here since bg1. Late thirties whaddafack? Their core audience is 18-35.

Other than that you're pretty much correct.


This may be hard for you to grasp but older gamers are a GROWING demographic.

My husband is 42 and is a gamer. He's part of the atari/commodore generation.

Is there a law saying older people are not allowed to game? <_<





This is absolutely true!  I'm 41 and also remember the Atari days.  Infact, according to The Entertainment Software Association (ESA), we 40 year olds  purchase more games on average. The actual average age of gamers is 18 to 49 and 26% are over 50.

Who would have thought?

Modifié par cljqnsnyc, 20 avril 2011 - 01:41 .


#743
Otterwarden

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Melca36 wrote...

Macrake wrote...

I'm 24 and been here since bg1. Late thirties whaddafack? Their core audience is 18-35.

Other than that you're pretty much correct.


This may be hard for you to grasp but older gamers are a GROWING demographic.

My husband is 42 and is a gamer. He's part of the atari/commodore generation.

Is there a law saying older people are not allowed to game? <_<


This statistic is interesting

www.nytimes.com/2010/08/09/technology/09drill.html

Women also outpace men in photo sharing and shopping, and in what may
come as a surprise, gaming, favoring casual puzzle, card and board
games. Female gamers over 55 spend the most time online gaming of any
demographic by far and are nearly as common as the most represented
group, males 15 to 24.

Guess we need to get more card games and puzzles into the RPGs.:wizard:
Here, let me offer a suggestion!! www.youtube.com/watch:devil:

Modifié par Otterwarden, 20 avril 2011 - 02:38 .


#744
Otterwarden

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Mick301981 wrote...

I've actually been toying with the idea of getting Baldur's Gate.

The story seems really good, and as it is a 13 year old game, my POS laptop may actually be able to run the game.:lol:

Checked out the BG forms, and wow the gameplay mechanics seem very daunting.

Short version: I would like to play the game for the story, but I'm not sure if I could handle the gameplay.


Go for it!  It may seem daunting, but it is totally digestable in stages of understanding.  What I mean is that you don't need to master the math behind the game in order to figure out how to keep up.  Then, once you are curious, you can switch on the screen that enables you to figure out the rolls.  For me, this was particularly helpful, because it was the first time things began really making some sense.:)

#745
Roxlimn

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In Dragon Age 4, combat will be resolved through card games, and inventory management will be designed as a sorter puzzle.

#746
erynnar

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cljqnsnyc wrote...

Melca36 wrote...

Macrake wrote...

I'm 24 and been here since bg1. Late thirties whaddafack? Their core audience is 18-35.

Other than that you're pretty much correct.


This may be hard for you to grasp but older gamers are a GROWING demographic.

My husband is 42 and is a gamer. He's part of the atari/commodore generation.

Is there a law saying older people are not allowed to game? <_<





This is absolutely true!  I'm 41 and also remember the Atari days.  Infact, according to The Entertainment Software Association (ESA), we 40 year olds  purchase more games on average. The actual average age of gamers is 18 to 49 and 26% are over 50.

Who would have thought?


I am 40 and I too remember Atari...I remember Pong! I was four years old and beating the adults. LOL!

#747
Slayer299

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Gravbh wrote...

Stopped reading the thread at "casual(mainstream console)". So about 9 lines down. Regardless of what has been discussed, get over yourselves pc gamers(of which I am one).


Please be specific, what exactly are pc gamers (of which you are one), should be getting over?

#748
Gatt9

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cljqnsnyc wrote...

Melca36 wrote...

Macrake wrote...

I'm 24 and been here since bg1. Late thirties whaddafack? Their core audience is 18-35.

Other than that you're pretty much correct.


This may be hard for you to grasp but older gamers are a GROWING demographic.

My husband is 42 and is a gamer. He's part of the atari/commodore generation.

Is there a law saying older people are not allowed to game? <_<





This is absolutely true!  I'm 41 and also remember the Atari days.  Infact, according to The Entertainment Software Association (ESA), we 40 year olds  purchase more games on average. The actual average age of gamers is 18 to 49 and 26% are over 50.

Who would have thought?


Interesting link for you both...(And highly relevant)

http://www.theesa.com/facts/index.asp

The average gamer is 34 years old,  the most prolific are 40+.  Which makes the young'uns screaming that we >30 year olds don't count the bottom end of a minority. 

It also proves that not only is Bioware making the wrong choices,  but they already had the data that told them they were making the wrong choices beforehand.

Which really isn't a surprise,  Publishers are run by suits who are interested only in making the next blockbuster,  and they think the only way to do it is to make every game into one of a couple genres.

There's a reason why the Industry is showing double digit shrinkage,  and this would be a major part of it.  The Industry is trying to cater to what they think a demographic wants,  and the demographic they're trying to grab isn't even a major part of game sales,  never mind that it's highly unlikely that the younger crowd is any more thrilled about the sterilizing of the genres either.

#749
Otterwarden

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Shadowbanner wrote...

Amazon UK has lowered the price of DA2 yet again. Selling now at only 12 pounds the PC version.

It's even selling cheaper than the ultimate edition of DA:O.


It's showing £13 at the moment.  Drats, overpaid by 99 p... losing my touch....:D

Really, though, with ME2 currently up at £10.66, that makes it selling at around £2.35.

Modifié par Otterwarden, 20 avril 2011 - 03:44 .


#750
kenelis

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Gatt9 wrote...

cljqnsnyc wrote...

This is absolutely true!  I'm 41 and also remember the Atari days.  Infact, according to The Entertainment Software Association (ESA), we 40 year olds  purchase more games on average. The actual average age of gamers is 18 to 49 and 26% are over 50.

Who would have thought?


Interesting link for you both...(And highly relevant)

http://www.theesa.com/facts/index.asp

The average gamer is 34 years old,  the most prolific are 40+.  Which makes the young'uns screaming that we >30 year olds don't count the bottom end of a minority. 

It also proves that not only is Bioware making the wrong choices,  but they already had the data that told them they were making the wrong choices beforehand.

Which really isn't a surprise,  Publishers are run by suits who are interested only in making the next blockbuster,  and they think the only way to do it is to make every game into one of a couple genres.

There's a reason why the Industry is showing double digit shrinkage,  and this would be a major part of it.  The Industry is trying to cater to what they think a demographic wants,  and the demographic they're trying to grab isn't even a major part of game sales,  never mind that it's highly unlikely that the younger crowd is any more thrilled about the sterilizing of the genres either.


Be careful with those stats. You want to ask what they define as a "game". Angry Birds on your phone and The Sims: <insert activity> are included. I'd wager that a large percentage of phone "gamers" have never heard of Bioware.

Not saying that phone gamers don't play RPGs, just saying that I wouldn't use those demographics in a discussion about Bioware.