843 réponses à ce sujet

[JoshPloof]

I don't think that RPG players are in their 30's or 40's I'm 17 and I pretty much exclusively play RPG's and haven't even ever played COD, but then again I grew up playing final fantasy when I was 9 or 10, so that's expected

[Giant ambush beetle]

Bioware should just continue with what they can do best: deep immersive detail-rich RPG's with a strong storyline and deep characters, they are extremely good at it and had pretty much a monopole on it.
Now, with their sudden and dramatical increase of greed they have thrown their old but well working concepts and loyal fan base overboard and are going to to ruin themselves stepping way down into the mediocrity not getting a new audience.

I've seen that happen with so many companies, its not just limited to video games market.....

[upsettingshorts]

_Motoki_ wrote...

For me the choices were a bogus facade because in most cases you really didn't have a choice and the game was just going to do the same thing no matter what you did. Even in the very beginning you can pretty much tell Flemeth off and she still helps you and I kept trying to find a more reputable and honorable way to get into Kirkwall and became frustrated that there wasn't. I felt like why even bother offer the choice and I just stopped caring what I picked.

And my Human Noble Warden wanted to stab Duncan in the gut and get out of Highever without being blackmailed into joining an order he wanted nothing to do with. 

Not to dismiss your point, just to say that if DA2 simply doesn't tell a story you like as much - that's, well, it's not realistic to expect every game is going to have a story that appeals to everyone.  I mean, people complain that DA2 isn't as epic as DAO and the antagonist wasn't out there and obvious - these are things I view as huge positives.  It's not something I typically respond to because it's such a personal thing.   Whether or not they executed either story well is a matter for a more interesting discussion, but even then it's easily derailed.

[TheMadCat]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

DA2 has one twitch element, the fact you can move a character to avoid an attack. It's still a long way from a twitch game, like Oblivion or Mount & Blade, where you physically direct the motion of your attacks through keyboard and mouse commands.

Never said it was a twicth game, Roxximm stated 2 was a hybrid of Diablo and tactical party based RPG's and hasn't been done. I'm simply arguing sematics with him.

[JoshPloof]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

Alex Kershaw wrote...

I'm 17 and DAO is my favourite game ever, so I disagree that they're all 40+...

DA2 is rated 18+ game you shouldn't be playing it.

In America, you only have to be 17 to buy M games.

[Dragoonlordz]

JoshPloof wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

Alex Kershaw wrote...

I'm 17 and DAO is my favourite game ever, so I disagree that they're all 40+...

DA2 is rated 18+ game you shouldn't be playing it.

In America, you only have to be 17 to buy M games.

I guess I learn something new every day.

[JoshPloof]

The Woldan wrote...

Bioware should just continue with what they can do best: deep immersive detail-rich RPG's with a strong storyline and deep characters, they are extremely good at it and had pretty much a monopole on it.
Now, with their sudden and dramatical increase of greed they have thrown their old but well working concepts and loyal fan base overboard and are going to to ruin themselves stepping way down into the mediocrity not getting a new audience.

I've seen that happen with so many companies, its not just limited to video games market.....

This 100%. So many companies try to do that and it 99.9% of the time they fail, Bioware is going to fail

[Dragoonlordz]

JoshPloof wrote...

I don't think that RPG players are in their 30's or 40's I'm 17 and I pretty much exclusively play RPG's and haven't even ever played COD, but then again I grew up playing final fantasy when I was 9 or 10, so that's expected

I'm 30 and a RPG player.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 17 avril 2011 - 04:37 .

[AkiKishi]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

JoshPloof wrote...

I don't think that RPG players are in their 30's or 40's I'm 17 and I pretty much exclusively play RPG's and haven't even ever played COD, but then again I grew up playing final fantasy when I was 9 or 10, so that's expected

I'm 30 and a RPG player.

That sounded like a line right out of an AA meeting.

[Dragoonlordz]

BobSmith101 wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

JoshPloof wrote...

I don't think that RPG players are in their 30's or 40's I'm 17 and I pretty much exclusively play RPG's and haven't even ever played COD, but then again I grew up playing final fantasy when I was 9 or 10, so that's expected

I'm 30 and a RPG player.

That sounded like a line right out of an AA meeting.

So true.. It honestly felt like it too when I was typing it.

[Roxlimn]

TheMadCat wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

DA2 has one twitch element, the fact you can move a character to avoid an attack. It's still a long way from a twitch game, like Oblivion or Mount & Blade, where you physically direct the motion of your attacks through keyboard and mouse commands.

Never said it was a twicth game, Roxlimn stated 2 was a hybrid of Diablo and tactical party based RPG's and hasn't been done. I'm simply arguing sematics with him.

Hardly.  You're just making patently incorrect statements.  There is nothing about Mass Effect's combat gameplay that's all that similar to Diablo.  JE is more similar, but it's still not Diablo.

Modifié par Roxlimn, 17 avril 2011 - 04:39 .

[Dragoonlordz]

Roxlimn wrote...

TheMadCat wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

DA2 has one twitch element, the fact you can move a character to avoid an attack. It's still a long way from a twitch game, like Oblivion or Mount & Blade, where you physically direct the motion of your attacks through keyboard and mouse commands.

Never said it was a twicth game, Roxlimn stated 2 was a hybrid of Diablo and tactical party based RPG's and hasn't been done. I'm simply arguing sematics with him.

Hardly.  You're just making patently incorrect statements.  There is nothing about Mass Effect's combat gameplay that's all that similar to Diablo.  JE is more similar, but it's still not Diablo.

You push a button. -just saying-

[jimmy_smith]

Well CRPG is maybe too complex for many players.
But I thinks DA:O did a great job for make it "less" complex but still satisfied most of hardcore rpg fans

In fact, DA:O is already one of the most "newbie friendly" CRPG game in market if you ask me.
Doing quest is easy becauce of event arrow, it has voice acting instead wall of texts
It cut out many headache of typical CRPG game (17.5 class, 20.25 race, 32.7 skill list, bah bah bah you name it)

Many of my gamer friends that never touch CRPG before, start play DA:O as their first and love it.

So, I can't understand why they change it to DA:II style

And seriously you can't get any CoD fans with this neither.
I'm also CoD and action game fan. If I want action game to play DA:II isn't on my list.

and one thing I want to ask you(Bioware)
Did you affront FPS game?
Do you think FPS game is "lesser" compair to RPG game?
Because you think you can draw CoD fan with THIS(DA:II, bad action game in general)

I will tell you this, FPS is a tough business, look at the competition on market.

CoD has stunning graphic, enjoyable gameplay and excellent story.
Yes,also story. if you play it you will know.
It beat DA:II in every catalogue even in story.

[chart4ever]

I kinda agree with the OP, but... in my opinion the real problem here is that the game looks unfinished. And I'm not talking about how it have ended but how they they recycled all the maps. Few more areas here and there, more Deep Roads, more forests and mountains. I mean they wouldn't have to change anything in the story, just the increase the amount of zones you encounter on ur so called "Journey to become a Champion".

[TheMadCat]

Roxlimn wrote...

Hardly.  You're just making patently incorrect statements.  There is nothing about Mass Effect's combat gameplay that's all that similar to Diablo.  JE is more similar, but it's still not Diablo.

Screw it, I'm done here. I've stated several times why Mass Effect falls under the same ARPG umbrella as games like Diablo, Jade Empire, Alpha Protocol, The Witcher, etc, and your repsponse is "You're wrong, it's a shooter". You really should get into politics, you're arguments are about as deep and fact-driven as the average politician here in the states.

[mykeme]

 For a long-time Bioware fan like me, the possibility of DA2 actually being a successful business model is horrifying. You see all this talk about how their sales don't compare to DA:O, but in fact none of us know how they compare in terms of production costs. It's a plausible theory that by "squeezing one out" every 18 months, Bioware could be selling around 1 mil copies per title and still making huge profits. There are endless things that factor into this: salary, insurance, rent etc. Considering the typical development cycle of a Bioware game, this really adds up. By reducing development cycles and increasing the number of simultaneous IPs (and even borrowing from other IPs, like DA reusing character animations from ME) they could be happy making games that cater to the fickle casual gamer. It's aesthetically unrewarding, it lacks creativity, but they could possibly increase profits.

Bottom line is: it's pointless to speculate! I know you care for Bioware - it's the reason you're on these forums, complaining, instead of branding them "too mainstream/streamlined" and moving on. But at this point it's hard to tell whether Mr. Laidlaw has a certain personality disorder or he's just trying to salvage the situation by defending the game against his own common sense.

I guess what I'm trying to say is maybe Bioware is gone. Maybe it's  time to realize that in our current world we can only  count on various indie devs to deliver the kind of aesthetic pleasure we seek. Or maybe it's just a one-time flop. Maybe they really thought they were onto something with re-used caves. Maybe they did it for the money. Maybe it's all Laidlaw's fault. Maybe it's all EA's fault. The only truth in this matter is that we will never know... unless someone owns stock in Bioware and shares their annual financial statements. That would be sweet.

[Roxlimn]

TheMadCat:

You've stated it once, twice at most, and it's so ludicrous a point that I can't decide how to dismantle it. Would you like me to dispute it from a basic game design perspective, with a view towards person view, or just let it collapse on its own?

Mass Effect is not the same game as The Witcher. DA2 is unique in what it does. If you can't differentiate between Mass Effect and The Witcher, then it's pointless to try convincing you why DA2 is different from Jade Empire. I have to wonder how you can differentiate it from DAO. Or Pong.

[AlexXIV]

I actually wouldn't mind them squeezing one out every year. Say, instead of making DLCs or expansions. But the performance can't suffer. I still want to play an RPG, I want a deep story and I want choices that matter.

[AkiKishi]

Roxlimn wrote...

TheMadCat:

You've stated it once, twice at most, and it's so ludicrous a point that I can't decide how to dismantle it. Would you like me to dispute it from a basic game design perspective, with a view towards person view, or just let it collapse on its own?

Mass Effect is not the same game as The Witcher. DA2 is unique in what it does. If you can't differentiate between Mass Effect and The Witcher, then it's pointless to try convincing you why DA2 is different from Jade Empire. I have to wonder how you can differentiate it from DAO. Or Pong.

Your on the wrong track here. It's how the mechanic modifies the player input , not whether or not the weapon is a sword or a gun.

Example in AP you have a skill that lets you shoot X number of bullets while paused and they all then hit in real time. That's a skill that is beyond you as a player just using a pistol. ME is very similiar, in ME if you have no skill in sniper rifles it wobbles like crazy, get to skill level 5 or 6 and it stabalises considerably.

AlexXIV wrote...

I actually wouldn't mind them squeezing one out every year. Say, instead of making DLCs or expansions. But the performance can't suffer. I still want to play an RPG, I want a deep story and I want choices that matter.

I'm not the only one who thinks of a turd when they read that line am I?

Modifié par BobSmith101, 17 avril 2011 - 05:15 .

[MortalEngines]

 I must say the OP makes some pretty large assumptions in his post.

I pretty much defy most of the logic used it in. I'm in my early 20s, I've played BG series, Jade Empire, KOTOR, ME and DA series. I enjoy all game genres (from RPG to Action-Adventure) and never really hold any dislike to a particular genre of games (apart from maybe platform and sports). I also prefered DAO to DA2 but still enjoyed some of things DA2 had to offer.

So...I've basically just defied every point you've made there. I do think DA2 made alot of mistakes, but I play it for what it is, not what I thought it would be and I enjoy it. And that's what I ask from any game, enjoyment. Forgert about genre-pride and nostalogia, I, enjoyed DA2 for what it brought to the table, DAO or no. But I still think it's flawed.
I think you should stop assuming that everyone is so clear cut and easy to group.

[xScarecrowX]

MortalEngines wrote...

 I must say the OP makes some pretty large assumptions in his post.

I pretty much defy most of the logic used it in. I'm in my early 20s, I've played BG series, Jade Empire, KOTOR, ME and DA series. I enjoy all game genres (from RPG to Action-Adventure) and never really hold any dislike to a particular genre of games (apart from maybe platform and sports). I also prefered DAO to DA2 but still enjoyed some of things DA2 had to offer.

So...I've basically just defied every point you've made there. I do think DA2 made alot of mistakes, but I play it for what it is, not what I thought it would be and I enjoy it. And that's what I ask from any game, enjoyment. Forgert about genre-pride and nostalogia, I, enjoyed DA2 for what it brought to the table, DAO or no. But I still think it's flawed.
I think you should stop assuming that everyone is so clear cut and easy to group.

This /\\ Thank you!

[abaris]

mykeme wrote...

 For a long-time Bioware fan like me, the possibility of DA2 actually being a successful business model is horrifying. You see all this talk about how their sales don't compare to DA:O, but in fact none of us know how they compare in terms of production costs.

I don't think, they're using that kind of calculation. By their own declaration, they wanted to reach a larger group of players. So if that doesn't happen, they probably consider it a failure. They have to answer to shareholders after all and shareholders don't give a rats about games.

[aries1001]

I'm not quite sure I agree with the OP that us old hardcore 'geezers' do not want change. From what I can tell from my own observations travelling these forums, it seems very much to be the us old geezers that like the changes he most, from the tougher, more responsive combat to the more tigther personal story focusing on not saving the world and may of the other changes made in DA2. I'm not saying that some of the younger rpg fans do not like the changes as well, I'm saying that we old 'geezers' or most of us like the new direction, DA2 has taken.

[Otterwarden]

Shadowbanner wrote...

Then we have a second, much larger crowd (ergo more dollars), that are more of a casual-type of players who are into the COD and button-mashing wave. They are by comparison much younger and by far a larger population. It's the juicy and larger slice of the cake every developer craves; its the publisher's holy grail, their wet dream (yes I'm looking at you EA). This group favors more consoles (Xbox, PS).

The cake is a lie.  

[abaris]

aries1001 wrote...

I'm not quite sure I agree with the OP that us old hardcore 'geezers' do not want change. From what I can tell from my own observations travelling these forums, it seems very much to be the us old geezers that like the changes he most, from the tougher, more responsive combat to the more tigther personal story focusing on not saving the world and may of the other changes made in DA2. I'm not saying that some of the younger rpg fans do not like the changes as well, I'm saying that we old 'geezers' or most of us like the new direction, DA2 has taken.

You make some good points.

Change is neither good nor bad. Its the way change is brought on its way. And that's where I start to disagree with you. Don't say "us" when you're talking about older players. I for one am 48 and don't like the new combat one bit because I consider it childish.

You're right, that a tight story can make for a good change. But its the hardest story to pull off in a convincing way. Especially when it comes to video games. A lifeless and never changing city gets stuck halfway.

If I were to demand change, it would be in the character department. The possibility to flash out your game self even more. It would also be in the combat department, but not in toonish way. Right now its hard because they have implemented a spawning mechanism. It should be hard, not because of the numbers, but because of strategy.