843 réponses à ce sujet

[Otterwarden]

Shadowbanner wrote...

I understand more what you say in the ME context, but not in DA2. DA2 is not "cinematics" as ME2 is for example.

Umm, but there have been hints that they wanted it to be, that they wanted to simplify it even further.  Presumably this would be done to make it flow better like ME2 did.  Couldn't find the quote source, but in looking through things did find this that makes it perfectly obvious that they understood the dichotomy upfront:

articles.nydailynews.com/2011-03-03/entertainment/28669532_1_role-playing-game-mass-effect-dn/2


"Gaider: You decide right at the beginning. We sit out and talk about vision.What
is the experience that we want? The thing I always find is fans - God
love 'em - they enjoy what they enjoy. A lot of them have this idea that
a game can be all things to all RPG fans.You can try. You can
try to please everyone. But what probably is going to happen is you're
not going to do each aspect well. What you're going to wind up doing is
disappointing everybody. So we stay focused."

Fans, "God love 'em" be damned. 

[Roxlimn]

Grovermancer:

And such combat mechanics don't fit w/ the physical laws of the DA universe as established by DAO. (not even considering Haste spells)

Precisely. Thank you for proving my point. I know you had a whole post, but the real crux of your point is this one. And maybe this:

I assume this is what people mean if they say (the combat) in DA2 is "childish." It appeals to a differernt sensibility than the combat in DAO did.

I don't agree that DAO established much of a physical law in terms of what's plausible in the DA universe. It has a sensibility, but the same sensibility that says that a sword swings as fast as it does also says that swords phase through solid objects, and that blood spurts three feet above the bodies it comes from.

Such laws are inconsistent and sometimes ridiculous. You might even say that DAO established more of a sensibility rather than a set of physical laws.

[Shadowbanner]

toggled wrote...

Great analysis. The only thing you didn't properly explain was the horrific re-use of maps. It's been a while since I've played a console, but I'm pretty sure console players must have been stunned by the limited number of environments.

A question is whether Bioware even understands they are at a crossroads. After reading various interviews, including one with The Doctors, I have come to the conclusion that Bioware has talked itself into believing that the vast majority of its loyal fanbase loves DA2, and that it's only a few vocal people who hate it. If this is true, then inertia will cause Bioware to continue down its present path, that being the creation of shallow, inferior games.

BTW, I did not own a Commodore 64 or any of the other ancient computers you mentioned. I had a TRS-80, which my friends dubbed the "Trash-80".

Thanks. Yep, I forgot to mention the re-used maps. So many issues...

[Shadowbanner]

Zayle79 wrote...

I'm 14.
Baldur's Gate, KotOR, Morrowind, Icewind Dale, and Planescape: Torment (to name a few) were excellent.  Mass Effect is a decent shooter/RPG hybrid.
We're not all hopeless!

Good for you lad.

[Romantiq]

For me combat became an issue just because of how repetitive and identical it stayed though the entire game.
At first I liked it but half way through act 1, I was clenching my teeth and slapping my forehead with the palm of my hand. Figuratively speaking..

Modifié par Romantiq, 17 avril 2011 - 09:22 .

[Melca36]

Shalidor wrote...

I bought this game off the back of Origins success despite the poor reviews, and to be perfectly honest I have no idea what anyone is talking about. I have played Bioware games right through from BG1 and Dragon Age 2 is by far the most challenging of the lot. Combat is brilliant, the battles (on nightmare) are often extremely challenging, long, and generally quite epic, far more fun than in DAO where there were basically no difficult fights except for whichever tough quest you picked at level 6; level scaling is also much less lame as the foes are more varied and have more interesting abilities. The talent trees are also infinitely more interesting.

The characters are well designed and on the whole more realistic than some of the DAO ones, although that's not to take away from that game.

I've found DA2 to be extremely entertaining and engaging just as I have found from all Bioware RPGs, I'm struggling to even see HOW it has been dumbed down in many important aspects (journal aside).

Exploding bodies is challenging?

Finding someone's missing toe and returning it game evolution?

[erynnar]

Romantiq wrote...

For me combat became an issue just because of how repetitive and identical it stayed though the entire game.
At first I liked it but half way through act 1, I was clenching my teeth and slapping my forehead with the palm of my hand. Figuratively speaking..

Same here...as Yahtzee Guy's review said, "Kirkwall...A city with such a predjudice against imigrants that you will be beset upon by massive amounts of identicle dudes every thirty ****ing seconds."  Yep, about sums it up.

[AkiKishi]

man giraffe dog3 wrote...

The problem with Dragon Age 2 is it has no identity. It's like they took one good thing, tried to make it something else, and in the end it became an abomination. An abomination that you should run away from. An abomination sort of like..

I agree with this. Although I call the game "Hawkes Mom" the principle is the same. DA2 really has no idea what it wants it to be.It's not brave enough to really break away and do something new and so ends up doing a lot of different things badly.

[Shadowbanner]

Roxlimn wrote...

Shadowbanner:

I think the large part of your dissatisfaction with DA2 was because you loved DAO to the high heavens and wanted and expected more of the same, even though the free demo released and most information released prior clearly indicated a different direction for the series.

Much of what you expressed that's bad about DA2 isn't objective, but various recitations of "This is not DAO." In all fairness, nearly all complaints I've heard about DA2 are variations of the same complaint.

Yes and no.

Resused dungeons, exploding bodies, teleporting ninjas, super fast combat, poor storyline, lack of immersion, waves and waves and waves of enemies materialisng out of thin air negating tactical positioning killing off ranged units, lack of TRUE choices in a BioWare RPG!!!, lack of variety of environments etc all the afore are unrelated to my expectations on a DA:O sequel and I think we'll both agree are objective complaints voiced by almost everyone else.

Even those who liked DA2 acknowledge these flaws. Something truly game-breaking for an RPG is the lack of true choices because you are railroaded no matter what. We all knew he would become champion.

Objectively and forgetting DA:O it's a bad game in my humble opinion and nose-diving sales are -I believe- proving my point day-by-day.

Modifié par Shadowbanner, 18 avril 2011 - 12:57 .

[Roxlimn]

Shadowbanner:

Resused dungeons, exploding bodies, teleporting ninjas, super fast combat, poor storyline, lack of immersion, waves and waves an waves of enemies materialisng out of thin air negating tactical positioning, lack of TRUE choices in an RPG!!! etc all the afore are unrelated to my expectations on a DA:O and I think we;ll both agree are objactive complaints voiced by almost everyone else.

They may not be related to DA:O, but they're absolutely related to your worship of DAO.

None of the complaints you mention in this post are objectively bad characteristics in a game, and some aren't even factually correct.

[AkiKishi]

Roxlimn wrote...


What's wrong with the story? No simple archvillain? Why is that bad? Not all great stories have single simple archvillains. No choices? What's wrong with that? Many JRPGs don't even offer the same number of choices as DA2 does. Are those games bad games, then?

It would be foolish to look for that in most JRPGs but it's a very reasonable expectation in a CRPG.  That said, Atelier Rorona has 20-30 endings and multiple "romances" so it's by no means a universal standard.

As far as the story goes, it's easier to tell a linear story. Take FFXIII really not one of my favourites and not that critically accliamed (similiar reasons to DA2 in the press). But it's pushing between 6-7 million.

[Dragoonlordz]

Roxlimn wrote...

Dragoonlordz:

No offense I got nothing against you per se but take off your blindfold. There is a wide variety of issues from bugs/glitches, some major some minor (I personally think the game freezing my entire console every few hours is disgusting quality of a product) to combat mechanics and graphics, dialogue and difficulty, story and time jumps. The list goes on and on and it is not all this "variations of same complaint" you claim which you refer to the bland generalisation that the only people complaining are people who compare it to DAO. Quite a lot of people including myself based our initial criticisms to being with only on the product itself and since then broadened that to include it's predecessor and/or other titles of the same genre and different genres.

There are issues with the game. These issues are not unique to DA2. Bioware games are generally buggy and glitchy. This includes DAO, ME2, ME, and even the old BG2 games. So when I see people saying this about DA2 and then comparing it unfavorably to DAO, I have to wonder.

Might be so but I bought DAO UE so most of the bugs had been fixed by then so (if) I was to compare DAO from when I bought it and played it to when I bought and played DA2, while unfair comparrison it's still one that happens to be true. I bought (x) which didn't have bugs when I bought it, while I bought (y) and does have bugs.

Either way (x) allows me to play without freezing my console and (y) doesn't. How is it not right to complain that such is happening in (y) regardless of (x) just because it may or may not have happened in (x) prior to me buying it.

This is mirrored in most of the complaints about the game. What's wrong with the combat, exactly? It's too fast? Why? NO reason given. Sometimes, the truth comes out - it's because it's faster than DAO and shouldn't be.

What's wrong with the story? No simple archvillain? Why is that bad? Not all great stories have single simple archvillains. No choices? What's wrong with that? Many JRPGs don't even offer the same number of choices as DA2 does. Are those games bad games, then?

While I'm sure many gamers think they're being objective, I usually find out in discussion that they're really looking for something specific.

DA2 has real, objective issues, but those are rarely discussed or mentioned.

All the questions you have asked have been answered a vast amount of times on these forums in new threads and in the CC for both registered and non-registered owner sections. So if you have been reading them you know why people thing something is wrong with them. Most people myself included already posted a very large explanation of each aspect in the CC thread and merely now just reply to questions and specific most touchy subjects or entertaining ones.

[Grovermancer]

Roxlimn wrote...

Grovermancer:

And such combat mechanics don't fit w/ the physical laws of the DA universe as established by DAO. (not even considering Haste spells)

Precisely. Thank you for proving my point. I know you had a whole post, but the real crux of your point is this one.

Exactly.  DAO set the universe and laws for the DA universe.  Intentionally so.  Laws, rules, lore, culture, etc.  This included the combat.

That wasn't an accident.  It was intentional.  Obviously.

It hearkened to a realistic, or at least believable, combat.  Which was made to fit with the real, gritty world of DA.

DA2 doesn't follow this 'realistic' approach, at least in regards to non-magical combat.  The approach it took could be said to be "childish," as I explained in the previous post.

Roxlimn wrote...
And maybe this:

I assume this is what people mean if they say (the combat) in DA2 is "childish." It appeals to a differernt sensibility than the combat in DAO did.

I don't agree that DAO established much of a physical law in terms of what's plausible in the DA universe. It has a sensibility, but the same sensibility that says that a sword swings as fast as it does also says that swords phase through solid objects, and that blood spurts three feet above the bodies it comes from.

Such laws are inconsistent and sometimes ridiculous. You might even say that DAO established more of a sensibility rather than a set of physical laws.

Of course it established a physical law.  Obvsiously, it did.  With every move it did.  With codex entries, it did. 

What sort of intellectual gymnatistics does one play to avoid acknowledging something so obvious and given?   The entire time, every single human through the entire entire game world swings a weapon a certain speed (relatively speaking, of course) and a manner in following real human kinesthetics...  but you're going to ignore that in it's entirety?  Intellectual dishonesty.  You lose credibility.

BTW, blood can shoot several feet from a body.  Swords passing through enemies -- are you talking about clipping? (or no clipping?)  Or some other video game convention?  This usually leads into the dishonest tactic of trying to cite our characters having "health bars" over their heads as a debate point for how it's "not believable."

Yeah, it's a video game, one that thus far, still functions within those parameters.  It's also a fantasy world; there's magic.  Those things are irrelevent to the point at large.

The DA universe established a specific world w/ specific laws.  DA2's combat breaks those laws, and arguably doesn't fit the universe established. 

The manner in which it breaks those laws, many of the changes made in DA2's combat, correspond to aspects or a sensibility that could accurately be described as "childish."  Words mean things.

[Roxlimn]

Dragoonlordz:

All the questions you have asked have been answered a vast amount of times on these forums in new threads and in the CC for both registered and non-registered owner sections. So if you have been reading them you know why people thing something is wrong with them. Most people myself included already posted a very large explanation of each aspect in the CC thread and merely now just reply to questions and specific most touchy subjects or entertaining ones.

Yes. I think I've read them all. Nearly all of them can be summarized in one sentence:

"I don't like this game because it's not DAO."

Some explanations are longer, some are shorter, but the upshot of most criticisms are just what I said.

[Shalidor]

Melca36 wrote...

Shalidor wrote...

I bought this game off the back of Origins success despite the poor reviews, and to be perfectly honest I have no idea what anyone is talking about. I have played Bioware games right through from BG1 and Dragon Age 2 is by far the most challenging of the lot. Combat is brilliant, the battles (on nightmare) are often extremely challenging, long, and generally quite epic, far more fun than in DAO where there were basically no difficult fights except for whichever tough quest you picked at level 6; level scaling is also much less lame as the foes are more varied and have more interesting abilities. The talent trees are also infinitely more interesting.

The characters are well designed and on the whole more realistic than some of the DAO ones, although that's not to take away from that game.

I've found DA2 to be extremely entertaining and engaging just as I have found from all Bioware RPGs, I'm struggling to even see HOW it has been dumbed down in many important aspects (journal aside).

Exploding bodies is challenging?

Finding someone's missing toe and returning it game evolution?

I'm sorry what? I didn't comment on exploding bodies at all, though I think the art is quite nice myself. I simply stated the combat, on nightmare, keeps me entertained where I quickly got bored of it in DAO as it was far too easy to just find one tactic and go with it for every fight. I'm not really sure why you quoted my post...I was merely pointing out there are good things about this game which I found myself able to enjoy despite enjoying all the other Bioware games I have played, in contrast to what the OP was suggesting was possible...

Personally I really enjoyed the reinforcement style battles too, adds yet another tactical dimension, though I would agree they overdid it a little. In my opinion worrying that they don't arrive 100% realistically is somewhat anally retentive, I would hate for something like that to ruin my enjoyment of a game.

Modifié par Shalidor, 17 avril 2011 - 09:38 .

[Dragoonlordz]

Roxlimn wrote...

Shadowbanner:

Resused dungeons, exploding bodies, teleporting ninjas, super fast combat, poor storyline, lack of immersion, waves and waves an waves of enemies materialisng out of thin air negating tactical positioning, lack of TRUE choices in an RPG!!! etc all the afore are unrelated to my expectations on a DA:O and I think we;ll both agree are objactive complaints voiced by almost everyone else.

They may not be related to DA:O, but they're absolutely related to your worship of DAO.

None of the complaints you mention in this post are objectively bad characteristics in a game, and some aren't even factually correct.

It seems to me the person who is more relating to DAO is yourself more than everyone else, you keep bringing it up not them. I really am beginning to wonder if your just using psychological projection at this point.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 17 avril 2011 - 09:38 .

[Shadowbanner]

Otterwarden wrote...

Shadowbanner wrote...

Then we have a second, much larger crowd (ergo more dollars), that are more of a casual-type of players who are into the COD and button-mashing wave. They are by comparison much younger and by far a larger population. It's the juicy and larger slice of the cake every developer craves; its the publisher's holy grail, their wet dream (yes I'm looking at you EA). This group favors more consoles (Xbox, PS).

The cake is a lie.  

Shhhhh!

Besides them losing the few hairs they have left in their scalp, do you also want them to suffer a heart attack!

[man giraffe dog3]

Shadowbanner wrote...

Otterwarden wrote...

Shadowbanner wrote...

Then we have a second, much larger crowd (ergo more dollars), that are more of a casual-type of players who are into the COD and button-mashing wave. They are by comparison much younger and by far a larger population. It's the juicy and larger slice of the cake every developer craves; its the publisher's holy grail, their wet dream (yes I'm looking at you EA). This group favors more consoles (Xbox, PS).

The cake is a lie.  

Shhhhh!

Besides them losing the few hairs they have left in their scalp, do you also want them to suffer a heart attack!

Weird then how DA2 console sales are so abysmal.

Console gamers that liked DAO heard the PC version was superior and thats what they wanted in 2.

PC gamers just wanted a continuation of DAO quality.

Bioware screwed everyone.

[Mrbananagrabber]

Of course when an intelligent discussuon like one happens, Bioware is nowhere to respond.

But when someone makes a discussion about DA2 peripherals...OHHHH now thats interesting!
(http://social.biowar...1/index/6312976)

Bioware was at a crossroad. They went left I went right. We'll never see each other again, end of story.

[Roxlimn]

Grovermancer:

Exactly. DAO set the universe and laws for the DA universe. Intentionally so. Laws, rules, lore, culture, etc. This included the combat.

That wasn't an accident. It was intentional. Obviously.

It hearkened to a realistic, or at least believable, combat. Which was made to fit with the real, gritty world of DA.

DA2 doesn't follow this 'realistic' approach, at least in regards to non-magical combat. The approach it took could be said to be "childish," as I explained in the previous post.

Nonmagical blades phasing through solid objects is realistic now? I have to check that.
Nope. My knife doesn't phase through my wall.

DAO set a sensibility for itself. DA2 happens to follow a different sensibility. This approach could only said to be "childish" if you don't happen to like it, and if you mistakenly think that this approach appeals to children, against all indications, and if you equate the two.

Of course it established a physical law. Obvsiously, it did. With every move it did. With codex entries, it did.

What sort of intellectual gymnatistics does one play to avoid acknowledging something so obvious and given? The entire time, every single human through the entire entire game world swings a weapon a certain speed (relatively speaking, of course) and a manner in following real human kinesthetics... but you're going to ignore that in it's entirety? Intellectual dishonesty. You lose credibility.

BS. I don't ignore anything. Don't call it intellectual dishonesty just because you don't understand.

DAO's physical laws are internally inconsistent. Any world where an Ogre doesn't keel over from sheer loss of blood pressure, or where his bones don't get crushed under the weight of his own body is not a world that follows our world's physical laws. Heck, Dragons fly. With really weird wingbeats and unnaturally small wingspans.

BTW, blood can shoot several feet from a body. Swords passing through enemies -- are you talking about clipping? (or no clipping?) Or some other video game convention? This usually leads into the dishonest tactic of trying to cite our characters having "health bars" over their heads as a debate point for how it's "not believable."

Yeah, it's a video game, one that thus far, still functions within those parameters. It's also a fantasy world; there's magic. Those things are irrelevent to the point at large.

The DA universe established a specific world w/ specific laws.

I challenge you to supply those physical laws. F=MA? A=D/T2? Are you a physicist? Do you have a solid grasp of real world physics? Because if you are and you can't recognize that an Ogre is blatantly unrealistic, then you're lying to yourself.

What you mean is NOT physical laws. What you mean is sensibility. DAO has a sensibility that's different from DA2. Neither of them have internally consistent physical laws, nor physical laws that are the same as real ones.

If you say that DA2's sensibility is different from DAO's, I will agree with you. Extrapolating that to mean "childish" is your prerogative, but it says things about you.

[Otterwarden]

Shadowbanner wrote...

Otterwarden wrote...

Shadowbanner wrote...

Then we have a second, much larger crowd (ergo more dollars), that are more of a casual-type of players who are into the COD and button-mashing wave. They are by comparison much younger and by far a larger population. It's the juicy and larger slice of the cake every developer craves; its the publisher's holy grail, their wet dream (yes I'm looking at you EA). This group favors more consoles (Xbox, PS).

The cake is a lie.  

Shhhhh!

Besides them losing the few hairs they have left in their scalp, do you also want them to suffer a heart attack!

"But there's no sense crying over every mistake.
You just keep on trying till you run out of cake."

  <3 you Bioware

Edit:
"Go ahead and leave me.
I think I prefer to stay inside.
Maybe you'll find someone else to help you.
Maybe [the COD crowd]
THAT WAS A JOKE.
HAHA. FAT CHANCE."



Edit of Edit: [substitution for the original "Black Mesa"] 

Modifié par Otterwarden, 17 avril 2011 - 11:24 .

[Dragoonlordz]

Roxlimn wrote...

I challenge you to supply those physical laws. F=MA? A=D/T2? Are you a physicist? Do you have a solid grasp of real world physics? Because if you are and you can't recognize that an Ogre is blatantly unrealistic, then you're lying to yourself.

You have obviously never met my sister in law...

Not only is she huge and mean she is also a funeral director, so they have more in common than you would think.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 17 avril 2011 - 09:50 .

[Roxlimn]

Dragoonlordz:

It seems to me the person who is more relating to DAO is yourself more than everyone else, you keep bringing it up not them. I really am beginning to wonder if your just using psychological projection at this point.

Let's talk about something specific. Many gamers decry the lack of choice in how DA2 arranges its endgame battles. Aside from this actually being virtually identical to the situation in DAO, not having choice at all in the game is actually a fair staple of JRPGs, which aren't universally considered failures just because they're JRPGs.

So why is it an inherent game flaw for a game not to give you choice in how to proceed?

[man giraffe dog3]

Otterwarden wrote...


"But there's no sense crying over every mistake.
You just keep on trying till you run out of cake."

  <3 you Bioware

Edit:
"Go ahead and leave me.
I think I prefer to stay inside.
Maybe you'll find someone else to help you.
Maybe the COD crowd
THAT WAS A JOKE.
HAHA. FAT CHANCE."

mangiraffedog says BEST.  EDIT.  EVER.

[Warheadz]

Otterwarden wrote...

"But there's no sense crying over every mistake.
You just keep on trying till you run out of cake."

  <3 you Bioware

Edit:
"Go ahead and leave me.
I think I prefer to stay inside.
Maybe you'll find someone else to help you.
Maybe the COD crowd
THAT WAS A JOKE.
HAHA. FAT CHANCE."

+100 approval for Portal "still alive" reference.
One of the best pieces of music games have.
Play the game and go listen it.
There's even huge "conspiracy" theories on that song.