69 réponses à ce sujet

[dreadpiratesnugglecakes]

Depends on what they were doing at the time. I don't have a problem with the chantry having templars to hunt down rogue mages but I do have a problem with them having an army large enough to be considered a faction in a city like Kirkwall. If I'd been the Lord of Kirkwall, I'd have found a way to undermind Meredith's political aspirations and reduce the size of her force to where she isn't a rival for power; the Chantry is a religious arm; they only need enough troops to keep the mages under control. If they're taking over towns, burninating villages and so on, I'd cheerfully give their commander and a**kicking that would send him limping back to Orlais.

[Gamer Ftw]

I can't discuss a game without being accused of trolling typical.
And klara I don't know how to make it any clearer to you we are discussing the game.
I suspect in the real world i would try to help the oppressed though.
I think a lot of what bothers me is that they do have enough troops to just take over a city if they wanted.

Modifié par Gamer Ftw, 17 avril 2011 - 04:18 .

[Zarkovagis9]

That's assuming that they believe in the separation of church and state, IMO. From what I can tell, that's not the case. In Kirkwall, it seems that the Chantry has as much power as the Viscount, if not more. The people in Thedas seem very religious (well, most of them). They also say in Kirkwall that the Templars are also the military arm of the city, making them very powerful.

That said, if the Chantry started imposing on my personal freedoms, then I'd have a problem with it.

[nos_astra]

Gamer Ftw wrote...
I suspect in the real world i would try to help the oppressed though.

You would? You aren't helping the oppressed every day? Why? Don't you care about them?
How far must they go before you feel obliged to "help"?

Gamer Ftw wrote...
I think a lot of what bothers me is that they do have enough troops to just take over a city if they wanted.

Why does this bother you?

[Gamer Ftw]

Klara the game is not real life.
we are discussing a G A M E.
yes I do care about the oppressed and I do help them if you need to know.

[nos_astra]

Gamer Ftw wrote...
Klara the game is not real life.
we are discussing a G A M E.

I'm aware of this. Thanks.

Gamer Ftw wrote...
yes I do care about the oppressed and I do help them if you need to know.

How? There are people oppressed and in danger right now in the world. What are you going to do about it?

[Gamer Ftw]

Klara I don't know what your problem is but i am not discussing my personal life with you.
I have been very patient in trying to explain I was discussing the game.
I suspect you are just trolling me yes?
I haven't been rude or anything about my opinions so I don't see the point.

[Lestatman]

I just hope I can be a mage in DA3 and bring down the Chantry.

[metalcraze33]

Lol Cullen ignore her she does this on every board she disagrees with.

[nos_astra]

Gamer Ftw wrote...
Klara I don't know what your problem is but i am not discussing my personal life with you.
I have been very patient in trying to explain I was discussing the game.
I suspect you are just trolling me yes?
I haven't been rude or anything about my opinions so I don't see the point.

Ok, let's stop this.

My point was, you can't do much about injustice and evil in the real world. You can do little things that may or may not lead to bigger things (that are very likely beyond your control). So your original question can't be applied to an in-game character, because even if they considered the Chantry unjust and oppressive they would be almost as powerless as you are in the real world.

Now, what could a player say? If the Chantry starts an Exalted March against the Dalish that's about enough! I'm going to buy a ticket, fly to Edmonton and punch David Gaider in the face? Or open a magical portal to Thedas, claim to be Andraste reborn and cast down the Chantry!

Modifié par klarabella, 17 avril 2011 - 04:51 .

[rma2110]

The Chantry does not need to be destroyed, it needs to be changed. If I were powerful I would love to join the Seekers of Truth and help stop Templar abuses.

If I were a powerful mage I would probably join the fight against the Chantry, but there would always be doubts in my mind. What happens if mages abuse their power and their freedom? What happens if mages treat templars and priest worse then they were ever treated?

Modifié par rma2110, 17 avril 2011 - 05:02 .

[Maria Caliban]

Zarkovagis9 wrote...

That's assuming that they believe in the separation of church and state, IMO. From what I can tell, that's not the case. In Kirkwall, it seems that the Chantry has as much power as the Viscount, if not more. The people in Thedas seem very religious (well, most of them). They also say in Kirkwall that the Templars are also the military arm of the city, making them very powerful.

That said, if the Chantry started imposing on my personal freedoms, then I'd have a problem with it.

Kirkwall is notable because the Templars have an extraordinary amount of power. Even then, they remained neutral until the Viscount moved against them and the decided that the office of the Viscount was best by held by someone who supported the Templars.

The main body of the Chantry still didn't have much to do with politics that we know of.

I'd say that separation of Church and State is stronger in Thedas than medieval Europe with the possible exception of Orlais.

[Serelir]

The Chantry has already gone too far, in my opinion, simply by attempting to crush any group that doesn't believe in their philosophy. I've become more intolerant of them as I've played through the games several times.

I was just reading an article this morning on why the forces of the right are so successful. This statement in particular struck a chord with me, and I think you can definitely relate it to the fictional story we are discussing:

"Thomas R. West notes that tolerance is often used in a pejorative way to make excuses for inequalities in power. West makes the same critique of negotiation: When fundamental rights and core values are on the table, just talking about negotiating means you’ve already lost." Sally Kohn, Washington Post Op-Ed

[Sarcastic Tasha]

I think as long as people are living relatively comfortable lives they won't do something that might rock the boat. In real life I think politicians are corrupt but I won't do anything about it because I think it could be worse (and short of becoming a terrorist what could I do?). I've never thought of my Hawke as being heroic enough to care about the Templars and the Chantry, so it would have to become a threat to herself or her friends for her to get involved.

[Hadea]

People can do wonderful things in the name of their religion, but others can also commit horrible atrocities in the name of the same religion. Maybe it isn't the Chantry itself that's bad, but in the way some people in power use the Chantry?

[Ayanko]

Religion its a ****. So many wars, and what's with the black and white Devine? They both follow the maker, the only thing they don't agree on is the treatment of mages. To me the Trevinter chantry seems more appealing that the Orlais chantry.

[Kabraxal]

The Chantry would have to do a lot more to warran wholesale destruction. As others have said, the Chantry is far less hostile and tyrannical than our own history's equivalent institutions at a comparable time. It is not dismissing the evil the Chantry has caused, but the simple fact that many members are more or less normal people trying to help others in various ways... there is no good reason to demand the Chantry be destroyed completely.

Really... the mages have been shown to have committed worse atrocities over time than the Chantry and I still wouldn't want mages to be hunted down and destroyed completely either.

[nosNospeak]

klarabella wrote...

Gamer Ftw wrote...
Klara I don't know what your problem is but i am not discussing my personal life with you.
I have been very patient in trying to explain I was discussing the game.
I suspect you are just trolling me yes?
I haven't been rude or anything about my opinions so I don't see the point.

Ok, let's stop this.

My point was, you can't do much about injustice and evil in the real world. You can do little things that may or may not lead to bigger things (that are very likely beyond your control). So your original question can't be applied to an in-game character, because even if they considered the Chantry unjust and oppressive they would be almost as powerless as you are in the real world.

Now, what could a player say? If the Chantry starts an Exalted March against the Dalish that's about enough! I'm going to buy a ticket, fly to Edmonton and punch David Gaider in the face? Or open a magical portal to Thedas, claim to be Andraste reborn and cast down the Chantry!

Ah report sent in, Trolls bringing their "Real life Things" into this game, Simple yes i would help or no be better. Good-day an welcome to ignore ^.^;'

[LobselVith8]

Gamer Ftw wrote...

So if you were a human in Thedas maybe you would say I won't stop them from killing the elves because I'm not a elf.

You mean the Exalted March on the Dales, where the elves mentioned templars coming in after they refused to convert and kicked out the Chantry missionaries?

Gamer Ftw wrote...

I won't stop them from killing apostate mages because I'm not a mage.

Or being given the Rite of Tranquility.

Gamer Ftw wrote...

Which might result in "Hey look they just murdered my entire village and there was no one left to help bummer".
So at what point do you feel enough is enough?

The fall of the Dales and the loss of Halamshiral.

[TEWR]

I think the Chantry should be torn down when they let an insane knight commander whom enjoys ancient lyrium enchanted greatswords call a Rite of Annulment on a Circle who was entirely innocent of any action taken against a Chantry that was blown to smithereens by an apostate. When that happens, I want the Chantry to burn

Oh wait...

[sphinxess]

Its all a propaganda war now - the story I would order the mages to spread is that the Kirkwall Knight-Commander used explosives she got from the Qunori to blow up the Chantry and kill the High Cleric to gain more power. The mages discovered this and when they heroically tried to bring her to justice she declared the Rite of Annulment <the rest of the Templars followed her like sheep> to kill all the mages so the truth wouldn't get out The powers of the divine were so offended by the evil actions of the Templars a bolt from the sky stuck and turned the Knight-Commander to stone.
Why use the truth when a lie can set you free?

[Sable Rhapsody]

They did a lovely little hop, skip, and a jump over the line of what I consider acceptable during the Dissent quest.

I understand there are people like Alrik who work their way into positions of power. That's not always the fault of their superiors. What makes me spitting angry is that even when his abuses were exposed, NO ONE CARED. No one would've done anything about that monster if Anders and Hawke hadn't acted. And instead of being horrified at the abuses of one of their own, Elthina and the Knight-Captain both blow it off and focus on his death.

Right. The death of a rapist is more important than uncovering how he was able to get away with his abuses for so long under the Chantry's nose. That's when my sympathy for the Chantry dropped to zero.

[Augustei]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Gamer Ftw wrote...

So if you were a human in Thedas maybe you would say I won't stop them from killing the elves because I'm not a elf.

You mean the Exalted March on the Dales, where the elves mentioned templars coming in after they refused to convert and kicked out the Chantry missionaries?

Gamer Ftw wrote...

I won't stop them from killing apostate mages because I'm not a mage.

Or being given the Rite of Tranquility.

Gamer Ftw wrote...

Which might result in "Hey look they just murdered my entire village and there was no one left to help bummer".
So at what point do you feel enough is enough?

The fall of the Dales and the loss of Halamshiral.

The march on the dales the elves mentioned, yes they wont be bias in the slightest. They could have killed those missionaries and for all we know the missionaries done nothing. Nothing is clear except the chantry didn't call for an exalted march until red crossing was burnt to the ground and chantry mothers were impaled on pikes and brutally murdered. All we know is that one elf in the camp in origins says "I dont the chantry started their war without reason" And something tells me its more beyond refusal to convert. I mean if they were that anal they would have called an Exalted march on Weisshaupt ages ago for the wardens constant harboring of Malefcarum

The fall of Arlathan sounds pretty unjustified, The fall of the dales.. We all one can do is speculate atm. Since the march wasn't called until the elves got to Val Royeaux however, meaning they would have had to go through Lydes, Verchiel Val Foret and then finally north to ValRoyeaux means that it was a war with only Orlais before it was a war with the chantry. They didn't even give their support to the war until the place the grand cathedral was in was threatened. Makes sense though.

History does however show chantry support for unjustified invasions (Ferelden, well at least the third one. no mention on the other two that i know of)

Nothing is seemingly said about Nevarra though or the Anderfels when they simply lent their support and asked nothing in return except helping the cause of defeating the blight but things weren't even on a desperate level for Orlais yet at that time.

[Augustei]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I think the Chantry should be torn down when they let an insane knight commander whom enjoys ancient lyrium enchanted greatswords call a Rite of Annulment on a Circle who was entirely innocent of any action taken against a Chantry that was blown to smithereens by an apostate. When that happens, I want the Chantry to burn

Oh wait...

You seen what lyrium exposure does to templars? remember the guy outside the chantry in denerim? Its like a poison the guy was nutty as. And that was from blue non "Pure lyrium" this stuff has clearly poisoned her mind. Before act 3 her actions weren't really unjustified and wrong. And as for the whole insistance on rooting out blood mages and orsinos protest.. Well she was right, and there was a bloody lot of them.. AND ORSINO WAS ONE

[S_P_I_D_E_R57]

Not replying on specifics, pioty is one thing but bigotry and indoctrination are quite another.
Don't forget what Marx said,
Religion is the opium of the masses....
Just a thought.