133 réponses à ce sujet

[Schattenkeil]

One thought that struck me when I first played Dragon Age II, is how easily all those mages seemed to have demons under pressure. As soon as their life was threatened a demon popped out. I found that very exaggerated, but I've thought some more about it.

There is the case of first enchanter Orisono. He should know the world, he should have faith in his skills and understand the implication of demons on the world. He should not give in so easily.

There is another case though: A young mage woman, an fear, cornered by four templars, cries for mercy and pleads she was innocent, which seemed perfectly plausible to me. She's not granted mercy, so she gives in to a demon, who then attacks these templars right away.

She lived in a world of mages, a girl and later woman who was told by faceless men and women in full body armor that she was evil and the world must be protected from her. There were others with, with the skill to do magic people who shared her lot. She had no personal freedom, was herded like cattle and never learned to understand the world. Freedom, and the world of the free is rather an abstract concept to her, something she can see out of the window during the mage's training but also something she completely doesn't understand. Consequently they don't really understand the harm that demons would bring to this world, or even why it is worth protecting.

Now the same people who told her she was evil, came to kill or at least wipe her mind, but not only her personally, but all the people she ever was allowed to spend her life with, all the people that meant something to her. And that, even though she had never done anything wrong, been a model of an upright mage who serves society, just as the chantry demands.

What would you do, in the face of death or tranquility? Would you bow your head? Maybe hoping that, once they have slain enough innocent people who never fought back they'd see their wrongs?T hat's the central question I wish to discuss.

I think I would fight, kill and die for my life as well as everyone else I care about, all the other mages, Alone I am not a fighter, I probably never learned any combat skills and spells. I will die, surrounded by five armed, faceless warriors, the one or the other way. A demon may be a creature of evil, but so are they, from my view on the world, the templars. It's a good thing if as many templars as possible die, because a dead templar cannot continue killing the people I love. Thus, I give in to a demon, and make a nightmare (literally) appear in front of my enemies as I give my life, to give my people a fighting chance. That's not weak, deliberately giving your life to fight for your people is in fact honorable. I would give in to the demon.

[Cutlass Jack]

Since every Circle mage is forced to do the Harrowing, I don't think they can really claim ignorance to the harm giving in to demons could bring. At least Apostate mages with little/no training could have some excuse. But the Rite of Annulment doesnt' apply to them.

But either way, no. The way to show you deserve freedom is not to give it up to Demons. That just proves the other side right.

[nekhbet]

They just do whatever anyone in their situation would do. Desperation drives people to extreme measures. You can die or die fighting, using whatever weapons you got at hand. Most people will go down fighting, if given those options.

[AlexXIV]

Well yes, using bloodmagic and calling demons didn't help any mage in Kirkwall. At best it gave the templars the excuses they needed to tighten their grip. Kinda makes you wonder how mages are supposed more intelligent than the common person.

[Schattenkeil]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

Since every Circle mage is forced to
do the Harrowing, I don't think they can really claim ignorance to the
harm giving in to demons could bring. At least Apostate mages with
little/no training could have some excuse. But the Rite of Annulment
doesnt' apply to them.

But either way, no. The way to show you
deserve freedom is not to give it up to Demons. That just proves the
other side right.

This isn't about right or wrong though, this is war. If everyone you ever cared about is dead, including yourself, what's it worth to have been right?

But anyway, I asked for your oppinion. So you would let those templars kill you without any resistance? Or make you tranquil? Simply bow your head and accept the fact that an enemy wipes everyone you ever cared about, without resistance?

Modifié par Schattenkeil, 17 avril 2011 - 04:18 .

[nekhbet]

AlexXIV wrote...

Well yes, using bloodmagic and calling demons didn't help any mage in Kirkwall. At best it gave the templars the excuses they needed to tighten their grip. Kinda makes you wonder how mages are supposed more intelligent than the common person.

No, it certainly didn't make their situation better. But that's not the first thing to think about when fighting for survival. Panic is a funny thing.

[TJPags]

Interesting question, which I think is actually 2 questions.

First, would I fight?  Damn right I would.  At the end of the day, my life is the most precious thing I have, and I will, indeed, fight to the death (as odd as that sounds) to preserve it.  I'd rather die fighting, than meekly submit.

Second, however, is HOW I would fight.  Would I fight with the skills and abilities I was born with and have learned throughout my life (ie, in this case, using magic and whatever spells I have learned) or will I turn to a new source of power (ie, demons).  That, IMO, is a much tougher question. 

A mage who has knowledge of combat spells, and enough power ie mana, can likely handle 4-5 Templars, at least to enable them to escape that situation.  Think of all the Templars your Warden in DAO (during Broken Circle) and your Hawke through DA2 took out.  Anders apparently killed 2 or 3 Templars in DAA (I don't remember that there were any darkspawn corpses there, do you?) without much of a problem.

A mage without that knowledge of combat spells would be in a much tougher situation, obviously,  So would a mage who knows the spells, but doesn't have much power.

I'd like to think that I would fight with my natural talents, win or lose, without resorting to conspiracy with demons, which is, really, just another way of giving up my free will (which, to me, is the same as my life).  But in that last extreme, faced with death or the possibility of life, would I succumb to that temptation?
Clearly, we will never know.  But, and I hate to say this, I think I'd probably go with the demon.

[AlexXIV]

nekhbet wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Well yes, using bloodmagic and calling demons didn't help any mage in Kirkwall. At best it gave the templars the excuses they needed to tighten their grip. Kinda makes you wonder how mages are supposed more intelligent than the common person.

No, it certainly didn't make their situation better. But that's not the first thing to think about when fighting for survival. Panic is a funny thing.

They did not only turn to bloodmagic in the Annullment. You have to practice it before you use it. So basically everyone who was able to use bloodmagic had broken the rules before and according to Circle law deserved to die or be tranquilized.

[AlexXIV]

TJPags wrote...

Interesting question, which I think is actually 2 questions.

First, would I fight?  Damn right I would.  At the end of the day, my life is the most precious thing I have, and I will, indeed, fight to the death (as odd as that sounds) to preserve it.  I'd rather die fighting, than meekly submit.

Second, however, is HOW I would fight.  Would I fight with the skills and abilities I was born with and have learned throughout my life (ie, in this case, using magic and whatever spells I have learned) or will I turn to a new source of power (ie, demons).  That, IMO, is a much tougher question. 

A mage who has knowledge of combat spells, and enough power ie mana, can likely handle 4-5 Templars, at least to enable them to escape that situation.  Think of all the Templars your Warden in DAO (during Broken Circle) and your Hawke through DA2 took out.  Anders apparently killed 2 or 3 Templars in DAA (I don't remember that there were any darkspawn corpses there, do you?) without much of a problem.

A mage without that knowledge of combat spells would be in a much tougher situation, obviously,  So would a mage who knows the spells, but doesn't have much power.

I'd like to think that I would fight with my natural talents, win or lose, without resorting to conspiracy with demons, which is, really, just another way of giving up my free will (which, to me, is the same as my life).  But in that last extreme, faced with death or the possibility of life, would I succumb to that temptation?
Clearly, we will never know.  But, and I hate to say this, I think I'd probably go with the demon.

Wha-? Why demons? Demons are not exactly nice beings. They kill or possess you even if you win. So there is not really any point to calling demons unless you know you die and just want that as many random people as possible die with you.

[Rexiselic]

Maybe hoping that, once they have slain enough innocent people who never fought back they'd see their wrongs?

You word it as if it is all black and white and that it is irrefutably wrong.

To answer your question, I cannot say for sure what I would choose to do, but I would seriously contemplate tranquility. I would not turn to blood magic or demonology.

But either way, no. The way to show you deserve freedom is not to give it up to Demons. That just proves the other side right.

Agreed. It makes me think of the fall from glory of the Thousand Sons in the warhammer 40k universe. My brother and I had an arguement about it once, he was of the opinion that they had no choice but to turn to chaos in order to survive their unjust execution caused by the treatcherous hand of Horus.

I am of the opinion that they could have and should have chosen to die with honor.

I don't remember that there were any darkspawn corpses there, do you?

If I recall correctly, there were about a dozen bodies in total and at least half of those were darkspawn. Anders really probably didn't kill them or if he did, he probably either killed the last one who survived the fight or just killed both darkspawn and templars with the same fire spells.

Modifié par Rexiselic, 17 avril 2011 - 04:28 .

[nekhbet]

AlexXIV wrote...

They did not only turn to bloodmagic in the Annullment. You have to practice it before you use it. So basically everyone who was able to use bloodmagic had broken the rules before and according to Circle law deserved to die or be tranquilized.

I think if all the mages had practised blood magic before the attack they'd have done a lot better in the fight. By the looks of it, it seems more of an instinct thing. Let a demon in and see what powers you get. Otherwise, why wait for the last moment before using your blood magic, if you could use it a bit earlier with higher survival rate? Why do most of them only use it when they're only kicked down on the floor with a sword on their throat? (excluding those who flaunt it, of course)

Modifié par nekhbet, 17 avril 2011 - 04:29 .

[Schattenkeil]

AlexXIV wrote...

They did not only turn to bloodmagic in the Annullment. You have to practice it before you use it. So basically everyone who was able to use bloodmagic had broken the rules before and according to Circle law deserved to die or be tranquilized.

The woman in the example did not use blood magic. Besides, it's pretty much of an assumption. My understanding is that it's naturally clear to every mage hwo blood magic workds, they just don't do it.

[sphinxess]

TJPags wrote...

Interesting question, which I think is actually 2 questions.

First, would I fight?  Damn right I would.  At the end of the day, my life is the most precious thing I have, and I will, indeed, fight to the death (as odd as that sounds) to preserve it.  I'd rather die fighting, than meekly submit.

Second, however, is HOW I would fight.  Would I fight with the skills and abilities I was born with and have learned throughout my life (ie, in this case, using magic and whatever spells I have learned) or will I turn to a new source of power (ie, demons).  That, IMO, is a much tougher question. 

A mage who has knowledge of combat spells, and enough power ie mana, can likely handle 4-5 Templars, at least to enable them to escape that situation.  Think of all the Templars your Warden in DAO (during Broken Circle) and your Hawke through DA2 took out.  Anders apparently killed 2 or 3 Templars in DAA (I don't remember that there were any darkspawn corpses there, do you?) without much of a problem.

A mage without that knowledge of combat spells would be in a much tougher situation, obviously,  So would a mage who knows the spells, but doesn't have much power.

I'd like to think that I would fight with my natural talents, win or lose, without resorting to conspiracy with demons, which is, really, just another way of giving up my free will (which, to me, is the same as my life).  But in that last extreme, faced with death or the possibility of life, would I succumb to that temptation?
Clearly, we will never know.  But, and I hate to say this, I think I'd probably go with the demon.

One of the questions is just how powerful the average circle mage is. Since any child that shows even the smallest amount of magic is taken to the circle I would think the answer is - not very.

[Schattenkeil]

AlexXIV wrote...


Wha-? Why demons? Demons are not exactly nice beings. They kill or possess you even if you win. So there is not really any point to calling demons unless you know you die and just want that as many random people as possible die with you.

Well, that is exactly the question. You do know you die. You're surrounded by five templars. And those will be the ones who have to deal with the demon. The demon may kill random people, if it manages to overcome the templars, but it will try to kill the templars first.

Modifié par Schattenkeil, 17 avril 2011 - 04:32 .

[Ox_Mox]

Well it's not like the demons actually help. They just possess you and turn you into a monster, essentially ending your life the same way the templars might. I'd say a mage would be justified in fighting to avoid execution/tranquility, but turning to demons doesn't help them at all and also gives the templars justification to oppress the mages even more harshly.

[AlexXIV]

Schattenkeil wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

They did not only turn to bloodmagic in the Annullment. You have to practice it before you use it. So basically everyone who was able to use bloodmagic had broken the rules before and according to Circle law deserved to die or be tranquilized.

The woman in the example did not use blood magic. Besides, it's pretty much of an assumption. My understanding is that it's naturally clear to every mage hwo blood magic workds, they just don't do it.

No I don't think it is naturally clear. You have to study and practice it. Flemeth even hints at some point that the Warden could not learn from her because it took a long time. I don't know if they can stab their hand and empower any spell with their own blood. Maybe. But there is still a way to go to summoning demons or actually use bloodmage exclusive spells.

[Rexiselic]

Schattenkeil wrote...

This isn't about right or wrong though, this is war. If everyone you ever cared about is dead, including yourself, what's it worth to have been right?

What's it worth living if you had been wrong?

But anyway, I asked for your oppinion. So you would let those templars kill you without any resistance? Or make you tranquil? Simply bow your head and accept the fact that an enemy wipes everyone you ever cared about, without resistance?

Who says that what I care about is a bunch of blood mages and abominations? May chance what I care about is all those slaughtered by the powerful?

Whatever the faults of the Chantry and the Circle, Tevinter is proof of what happens when mages are in control.

As Fenris said, if you are unwilling to wield blood magic and demonology to your advantage, you will simply be dominated by mages who are.

[hoorayforicecream]

Schattenkeil wrote...

This isn't about right or wrong though, this is war. If everyone you ever cared about is dead, including yourself, what's it worth to have been right?

But anyway, I asked for your oppinion. So you would let those templars kill you without any resistance? Or make you tranquil? Simply bow your head and accept the fact that an enemy wipes everyone you ever cared about, without resistance?

You know there were some mages who did exactly that during the battle in the Gallows at the end of the game, yes? They surrendered, and Cullen deferred to Hawke for their ultimate fate.

[AlexXIV]

Schattenkeil wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...


Wha-? Why demons? Demons are not exactly nice beings. They kill or possess you even if you win. So there is not really any point to calling demons unless you know you die and just want that as many random people as possible die with you.

Well, that is exactly the question. You do know you die. You're surrounded by five templars. And those will be the ones who have to deal with the demon. The demon may kill random people, if it manages to overcome the templars, but it will try to kill the templars first.

That may be one occation when it is excusable. If you know you die and the demon will kill maybe 3 templars before they kill the demon. Then you at least had your revenge and 3 less enemies for your comrades to deal with. But let's look at what happened. Orsino turns into a harvester in the middle of Hawke's group and attacks them. And panic? More panic than Hawke or one of his/her friends, more than Bethany or the other mages? I mean I understand that panic is sort of a state where people are out of control, but it is also a convenient excuse for being weak willed and selfish.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 17 avril 2011 - 04:42 .

[Camenae]

Would I use blood magic to protect myself/others? Yes.

Let a demon take me? No.

[Schattenkeil]

AlexXIV wrote...

Schattenkeil wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...


Wha-? Why demons? Demons are not exactly nice beings. They kill or possess you even if you win. So there is not really any point to calling demons unless you know you die and just want that as many random people as possible die with you.

Well, that is exactly the question. You do know you die. You're surrounded by five templars. And those will be the ones who have to deal with the demon. The demon may kill random people, if it manages to overcome the templars, but it will try to kill the templars first.

That would maybe one occation when it is excusable. If you know you die and the demon will kill maybe 3 templars before they kill the demon. Then you at least had your revenge and 3 less enemies for your comrades to deal with. But let's look at what happened. Orsino turns into a harvester in the middle of Hawke's group and attacks them. And panic? More panic than Hawke or one of his/her friends, more than Bethany or the other mages? I mean I understand that panic is sort of a state where people are out of control, but it is also a convenient excuse for being weak willed and selfish.

I agree about Orisono. He simply lost his nerve completely and came on with a pretty childish attitude. He was the first enchanter. He could have put up a hell of a lot fight witout endangering the people he is there protect witout resorting to demons, and he simply should know a whole lot better.

That's why a refer to the that woman... Quite at the beginning at the fight. She's the first turning into a demon during the execution of the right of annulment, I think. Until then you only have to fight templars.. or probably circle mages if you chose the other side.

Modifié par Schattenkeil, 17 avril 2011 - 04:58 .

[Rexiselic]

Hmmm, yes, I think I would alter my position somewhat.

Blood magic, I might consider, since I do not see the harm in drawing on the power of one's own blood or that of a willing volunteer (such as Lady Isolde).

However, my stance remains the same on demonology. No.

[Rexiselic]

I double posted by mistake, is there a way to delete posts?

Modifié par Rexiselic, 17 avril 2011 - 04:49 .

[AlexXIV]

Rexiselic wrote...

I double posted by mistake, is there a way to delete posts?

No.

[TJPags]

AlexXIV wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Interesting question, which I think is actually 2 questions.

First, would I fight?  Damn right I would.  At the end of the day, my life is the most precious thing I have, and I will, indeed, fight to the death (as odd as that sounds) to preserve it.  I'd rather die fighting, than meekly submit.

Second, however, is HOW I would fight.  Would I fight with the skills and abilities I was born with and have learned throughout my life (ie, in this case, using magic and whatever spells I have learned) or will I turn to a new source of power (ie, demons).  That, IMO, is a much tougher question. 

A mage who has knowledge of combat spells, and enough power ie mana, can likely handle 4-5 Templars, at least to enable them to escape that situation.  Think of all the Templars your Warden in DAO (during Broken Circle) and your Hawke through DA2 took out.  Anders apparently killed 2 or 3 Templars in DAA (I don't remember that there were any darkspawn corpses there, do you?) without much of a problem.

A mage without that knowledge of combat spells would be in a much tougher situation, obviously,  So would a mage who knows the spells, but doesn't have much power.

I'd like to think that I would fight with my natural talents, win or lose, without resorting to conspiracy with demons, which is, really, just another way of giving up my free will (which, to me, is the same as my life).  But in that last extreme, faced with death or the possibility of life, would I succumb to that temptation?
Clearly, we will never know.  But, and I hate to say this, I think I'd probably go with the demon.

Wha-? Why demons? Demons are not exactly nice beings. They kill or possess you even if you win. So there is not really any point to calling demons unless you know you die and just want that as many random people as possible die with you.

Well, I think I explained my reasoning - if I'm about to die, I may very well grab any straw I can find to keep that from happening.

Now, if you're asking would I have turned to blood magic first, sure, of course, if I knew it.  I've never been a believer that blood magic = evil.  It's a tool, the use to which you put it is evil (or not, as the case may be).

So, yes, natural talents, blood magic, but at the end of the day - would I make a deal with a demon for power if it might spare my life?  Again, I'd like to say no, but - that answer may well be yes.