133 réponses à ce sujet

[nekhbet]

AlexXIV wrote...
I mean I understand that panic is sort of a state where people are out of control, but it is also a convenient excuse for being weak willed and selfish.

Have you ever been in a situation where lots of people panic at once? Have you ever been assaulted on a dark street, by a potential mugger or rapist?

People don't plan on extreme measures, in general. Outside of extreme situations we think how we'd act rationally if under assault. If someone starts shooting at classroom or fires a bomb at the mall. But people not trained to deal with these situations panic. They flight or they fight, and it's not weak or selfish. It's basic survival instinct that takes a lot of work to get rid of. It's so strong that even people trained to deal with panic get PTSD if exposed for longer time.

Is it right to kill a lot of people if you panic? Probably not. Is it understandable? Yes, very much so, because we know how human mind works and how it can crack. Understandable isn't the same as "excuse", but it's certainly something that lowers culpability and needs to taken into consideration.

Modifié par nekhbet, 17 avril 2011 - 05:04 .

[Iosev]

I always figured that magi turn to blood magic because it helps them fight against templars better. If I'm not mistaken, templars have the ability to disrupt mana, which allows them to subdue most normal magi. Blood magi, on the other hand, can use blood instead of their own mana, and thus, templars aren't as able to disrupt their spells.  If that's the case, then I can definitely see why many magi turn to blood magic to combat templars.

The problem, however, is that demons are currently the primary source that a mage can learn blood magic from, so many have to consort with a demon to learn it.

I imagine that spirits call to magi when they're cornered (especially in places where the veil has weakened), and tempt them into making a deal to learn blood magic.

On a side note, I think Bioware should do a better job with enemy templar NPCs.  In my opinion, enemy templar NPCs should go straight for the mages in your party and constantly distrupt spells.  The player should have to either rely on their non-mage companions to take care of enemy templars, or use blood magic to avoid being disrupted.  I guess I just personally felt that enemy templars aren't as fearsome in gameplay as you would expect from how they're described in lore.

Modifié par arcelonious, 17 avril 2011 - 05:34 .

[AlexXIV]

nekhbet wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...
I mean I understand that panic is sort of a state where people are out of control, but it is also a convenient excuse for being weak willed and selfish.

Have you ever been in a situation where lots of people panic at once? Have you ever been assaulted on a dark street, by a potential mugger or rapist?

People don't plan on extreme measures, in general. Outside of extreme situations we think how we'd act rationally if under assault. If someone starts shooting at classroom or fires a bomb at the mall. But people not trained to deal with these situations panic. They flight or they fight, and it's not weak or selfish. It's basic survival instinct that takes a lot of work to get rid of. It's so strong that even people trained to deal with panic get PTSD if exposed for longer time.

Is it right to kill a lot of people if you panic? Probably not. Is it understandable? Yes, very much so, because we know how human mind works and how it can crack. Understandable isn't the same as "excuse", but it's certainly something that lowers culpability and needs to taken into consideration.

Well I wasn't denying that panic exists. Just that it is a convenient excuse for some people who are not really panicking but just acting selfish and weak in a situation. And matter of factly to call a demon you first have to learn how to do it. I mean if you carry a gun with you even though it is forbidden and you panic and shoot someone, you still are guilty of having had a gun with you. You obviously risked that it could happen and didn't care for the consequences.

[Cutlass Jack]

Schattenkeil wrote...

This isn't about right or wrong though, this is war. If everyone you ever cared about is dead, including yourself, what's it worth to have been right?

But anyway, I asked for your oppinion. So you would let those templars kill you without any resistance? Or make you tranquil? Simply bow your head and accept the fact that an enemy wipes everyone you ever cared about, without resistance?

That's not what you asked. You asked if I'd give into demons to do it. Which I would not. I would not become exactly what they claimed we were. But mages are not without power of their own.

Look at Orsinio. He's the First Enchanter. Powerful enough to single handedly take on a pack of Qunari without using Blood Magic, and he caves and gives into blood magic at the end even though they weren't losing at that point.

Compare that with Emile du Comcet. Possibly the worst mage in the game, but faced with that exact same situation (if he returns to the circle) he does so under his own power and doesn't give in to blood Magic. Him I respected in the end.

Admittedly he lied about it to pick up girls, but that's another story.

[Maria Caliban]

Schattenkeil wrote...

She lived in a world of mages, a girl and later woman who was told by faceless men and women in full body armor that she was evil and the world must be protected from her.

Templars are not 'faceless.' They are people. If you live in the Tower, you see and interact with them every day of your life. Nor do all Templars see mages as evil. The average Templar is more sympathetic to mages than the average citizen of Kirkwall.

[Schattenkeil]

AlexXIV wrote...

Well I wasn't denying that panic exists. Just that it is a convenient excuse for some people who are not really panicking but just acting selfish and weak in a situation. And matter of factly to call a demon you first have to learn how to do it. I mean if you carry a gun with you even though it is forbidden and you panic and shoot someone, you still are guilty of having had a gun with you. You obviously risked that it could happen and didn't care for the consequences.

The immediate consequence is that the people attacking you die.. which is desirable giving others the chance to escape, because you've taken some of the enemy out of the game. That may be weak from a point of view, but not selfish. And all you need to fall prey to a demon is give in to them.

[AlexXIV]

Schattenkeil wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Well I wasn't denying that panic exists. Just that it is a convenient excuse for some people who are not really panicking but just acting selfish and weak in a situation. And matter of factly to call a demon you first have to learn how to do it. I mean if you carry a gun with you even though it is forbidden and you panic and shoot someone, you still are guilty of having had a gun with you. You obviously risked that it could happen and didn't care for the consequences.

The immediate consequence is that the people attacking you die.. which is desirable giving others the chance to escape, because you've taken some of the enemy out of the game. That may be weak from a point of view, but not selfish. And all you need to fall prey to a demon is give in to them.

You can always conjure situations where doing something illegal or wrong results in something positive, or at least is excusable. Thing is just that they are probably exceptions from the rule. Usually mages who summon demons in a battle situation don't do it in the most responsible way ever. Alone the fact that it is a battle situation and not somewhere in a safe place with all possible precautions makes it unlikely for the mage to control it ... for long anyway.

[Schattenkeil]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

That's not what you asked. You asked if I'd give into demons to do it. Which I would not. I would not become exactly what they claimed we were. But mages are not without power of their own.

Look at Orsinio. He's the First Enchanter. Powerful enough to single handedly take on a pack of Qunari without using Blood Magic, and he caves and gives into blood magic at the end even though they weren't losing at that point.

I was explicitely not referring to Orsinio. I was referring to the you mage cornered by five templars relatively at the beginning of the fight. My question is simply: What would you do?

Modifié par Schattenkeil, 17 avril 2011 - 05:34 .

[Schattenkeil]

AlexXIV wrote...

You can always conjure situations where doing something illegal or wrong results in something positive, or at least is excusable. Thing is just that they are probably exceptions from the rule. Usually mages who summon demons in a battle situation don't do it in the most responsible way ever. Alone the fact that it is a battle situation and not somewhere in a safe place with all possible precautions makes it unlikely for the mage to control it ... for long anyway.

I was referring to a concrete situation in the game, something that actually happened. Admitedly I have know why of knowing how guilty this mage was, but the templars surrounding her made it clear they didn't care. I don't remember the details but I think she didn't even have a staff.

Modifié par Schattenkeil, 17 avril 2011 - 05:33 .

[nekhbet]

AlexXIV wrote...
Well I wasn't denying that panic exists. Just that it is a convenient excuse for some people who are not really panicking but just acting selfish and weak in a situation. And matter of factly to call a demon you first have to learn how to do it. I mean if you carry a gun with you even though it is forbidden and you panic and shoot someone, you still are guilty of having had a gun with you. You obviously risked that it could happen and didn't care for the consequences.

I agree, that it can also be used as an excuse. But I don't think the mages at the tower, held at swordpoint, were using panic as an excuse for their demon-calling.

I also disagree about calling demons requiring any experience. The very reason mages get training (and get locked up) is that they're capable of unwittingly setting things on fire, or turning into aboninations or calling demons. If there was no such risk, there wouldn't be need to train them. Connor is a good case in point.

[Maria Caliban]

AlexXIV wrote...

Well I wasn't denying that panic exists. Just that it is a convenient excuse for some people who are not really panicking but just acting selfish and weak in a situation. And matter of factly to call a demon you first have to learn how to do it. I mean if you carry a gun with you even though it is forbidden and you panic and shoot someone, you still are guilty of having had a gun with you. You obviously risked that it could happen and didn't care for the consequences.

Bethany: You have a sword. Why aren't you killing someone right now?
Aveline: Fair point, but I can put my sword down.
Bethany: Believe me, I have tried.

I can *choose* to pick up and carry a gun, and so can be guilty of carrying a gun. A mage can't make that choice, the gun is part of their being.

[AlexXIV]

Schattenkeil wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

You can always conjure situations where doing something illegal or wrong results in something positive, or at least is excusable. Thing is just that they are probably exceptions from the rule. Usually mages who summon demons in a battle situation don't do it in the most responsible way ever. Alone the fact that it is a battle situation and not somewhere in a safe place with all possible precautions makes it unlikely for the mage to control it ... for long anyway.

I was referring to a concrete situation in the game, something that actually happened. Admitedly I have know why of knowing how guilty this mage was, but the templars surrounding her made it clear they didn't care.

Yeah I said before I probably would think about summoning a demon. Then again it would mean I have learned how to summon it before. Which is unlikely. Because dealing with demons, especially as a mage, seems rather unnecessary and ... excessive.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 17 avril 2011 - 05:36 .

[Benchmark]

Huh weird double post, edited out this first dupe.

Modifié par Benchmark, 17 avril 2011 - 06:21 .

[AlexXIV]

Maria Caliban wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Well I wasn't denying that panic exists. Just that it is a convenient excuse for some people who are not really panicking but just acting selfish and weak in a situation. And matter of factly to call a demon you first have to learn how to do it. I mean if you carry a gun with you even though it is forbidden and you panic and shoot someone, you still are guilty of having had a gun with you. You obviously risked that it could happen and didn't care for the consequences.

Bethany: You have a sword. Why aren't you killing someone right now?
Aveline: Fair point, but I can put my sword down.
Bethany: Believe me, I have tried.

I can *choose* to pick up and carry a gun, and so can be guilty of carrying a gun. A mage can't make that choice, the gun is part of their being.

Yes but I was referring to calling demons. I think you have to learn it first to do it and it is forbidden. Being mage isn't forbidden, at least not if you are part of a Circle.

[Benchmark]

It is impossible to morally absolve mages that turn to blood magic and consort with demons. Why are people trying to do this? Circumstances do not matter. Understanding the stresses on the individual do not make it correct.

The Qunari are a great example. A Qunari that leaves the Qun is no longer a Qunari, they are nothing. Qunari will choose to die holding to the Qun rather than seek ways to live outside it. The decision is theirs, they have a definite choice. Choose to be who they are until death, or choose to be what they hate.

Mages are given the same choice. Be a mage until the end, even if death comes to you and you aren't strong enough to defeat your enemies, or become something that isn't even you anymore and risk destroying everything you care about (ie Evelina, Huon).

If someone backed you into a corner, then offered to let you go if you burnt down a children's hospital, would you do it to save your skin? Would you trust anyone who would make that choice with the power to burn down the children's hospital with their mind??

Any mage that turns into an abomination or uses forbidden magics for any reason, in my mind, wasn't deserving or responsible enough to be trusted with those abilities. They were a ticking time bomb of destruction.

Modifié par Benchmark, 17 avril 2011 - 05:37 .

[AlexXIV]

nekhbet wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...
Well I wasn't denying that panic exists. Just that it is a convenient excuse for some people who are not really panicking but just acting selfish and weak in a situation. And matter of factly to call a demon you first have to learn how to do it. I mean if you carry a gun with you even though it is forbidden and you panic and shoot someone, you still are guilty of having had a gun with you. You obviously risked that it could happen and didn't care for the consequences.

I agree, that it can also be used as an excuse. But I don't think the mages at the tower, held at swordpoint, were using panic as an excuse for their demon-calling.

I also disagree about calling demons requiring any experience. The very reason mages get training (and get locked up) is that they're capable of unwittingly setting things on fire, or turning into aboninations or calling demons. If there was no such risk, there wouldn't be need to train them. Connor is a good case in point.

Connor was tutored by a blood mage. I don't know how likely it is for a mage to accidently summon a demon. My Hawke and my Warden could never do it though, neither any of the companion mages.

[Maria Caliban]

AlexXIV wrote...

Yes but I was referring to calling demons. I think you have to learn it first to do it and it is forbidden. Being mage isn't forbidden, at least not if you are part of a Circle.

Oh, I see now.

I think that's incorrect. You don't have to know how to summon demons to turn into an abomination. Meredith's sister, for example, was apparently a very sweet, innocent girl who never received any magical training and she was transformed and murdered her family.

Arl Emmon's son probably also didn't know how to summon demons but he was possessed.

David Gaider once gave an example of a mage falling asleep and having a dream that they have to fight a dragon. A mysterious older man gives them a magical sword to slay it with, which they accept. However, their dream is in the Fade and that sword is a demon they just allowed into themselves. If they're weak enough, that demon can now take them over.

[nekhbet]

[quote]AlexXIV wrote...

Connor was tutored by a blood mage. I don't know how likely it is for a mage to accidently summon a demon. My Hawke and my Warden could never do it though, neither any of the companion mages.[/quote]

They don't do it accidentally because it'd ruin the game. Unfortunately there's no proper IC reason for it.
[/quote]

Modifié par nekhbet, 17 avril 2011 - 05:45 .

[AlexXIV]

Maria Caliban wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Yes but I was referring to calling demons. I think you have to learn it first to do it and it is forbidden. Being mage isn't forbidden, at least not if you are part of a Circle.

Oh, I see now.

I think that's incorrect. You don't have to know how to summon demons to turn into an abomination. Meredith's sister, for example, was apparently a very sweet, innocent girl who never received any magical training and she was transformed and murdered her family.

Arl Emmon's son probably also didn't know how to summon demons but he was possessed.

David Gaider once gave an example of a mage falling asleep and having a dream that they have to fight a dragon. A mysterious older man gives them a magical sword to slay it with, which they accept. However, their dream is in the Fade and that sword is a demon they just allowed into themselves. If they're weak enough, that demon can now take them over.

Oh I didn't know that. Well that's very bad if a mage can be taken over by a demon everytime they dream. I somehow always thought it would take a thin veil or at least some sort of spell or ritual.

Edit: But aren't there 'dreamers' like the half elf in DA2? Maybe David was referring to one of these?

Modifié par AlexXIV, 17 avril 2011 - 05:46 .

[Benchmark]

AlexXIV wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Yes but I was referring to calling demons. I think you have to learn it first to do it and it is forbidden. Being mage isn't forbidden, at least not if you are part of a Circle.

Oh, I see now.

I think that's incorrect. You don't have to know how to summon demons to turn into an abomination. Meredith's sister, for example, was apparently a very sweet, innocent girl who never received any magical training and she was transformed and murdered her family.

Arl Emmon's son probably also didn't know how to summon demons but he was possessed.

David Gaider once gave an example of a mage falling asleep and having a dream that they have to fight a dragon. A mysterious older man gives them a magical sword to slay it with, which they accept. However, their dream is in the Fade and that sword is a demon they just allowed into themselves. If they're weak enough, that demon can now take them over.

Oh I didn't know that. Well that's very bad if a mage can be taken over by a demon everytime they dream. I somehow always thought it would take a thin veil or at least some sort of spell or ritual.

Edit: But aren't there 'dreamers' like the half elf in DA2? Maybe David was referring to one of these?

I think this is the case for any mage. I didn't play a mage in DAO but I thought they described the Harrowing as a dream, where if you trusted anything or accepted anything you failed and got tranqed.

[Schattenkeil]

@Benchmark
So you're saying: If you would be the mage in the place I have described, you would let the templars kill you without resistance?

[Benchmark]

Schattenkeil wrote...

@Benchmark
So you're saying: If you would be the mage in the place I have described, you would let the templars kill you without resistance?

So you are saying you would burn down the children's hospital?

And I am saying that if I was innocent (or guilty I guess) I would fight back with my abilities while still choosing to be me.

If that means that I die fighting, I die. But I won't turn myself into something that I hate just to escape my own fear.

[AlexXIV]

Benchmark wrote...

Schattenkeil wrote...

@Benchmark
So you're saying: If you would be the mage in the place I have described, you would let the templars kill you without resistance?

So you are saying you would burn down the children's hospital?

And I am saying that if I was innocent (or guilty I guess) I would fight back with my abilities while still choosing to be me.

If that means that I die fighting, I die. But I won't turn myself into something that I hate just to escape my own fear.

And if you could choose to die and take 3 enemies with you or just die?

[TobiTobsen]

I don't think that anybody, besides ultra loyalists like the girl in DAO, would go down without a fight. Most people don't want to die, the instinct of self preservation is just to strong.

Would I turn to demons? Not willingly I think. Death by templars or death by possession is no difference. Nonetheless it could be that I fall prey to a demon under that extreme pressure, weak-willed as I am.

Modifié par TobiTobsen, 17 avril 2011 - 06:38 .

[Schattenkeil]

Benchmark wrote...

So you are saying you would burn down the children's hospital?

No, but I would sacrifice myself to unleash a demon onto my enemies. This may cause colleteral damage, depending on how far the demon gets, but that's circumstancial. The templars taken down by the demon will not kill one of my own anymore, and some more will be distracted getting the demon under control. You must realize, from the perspective of the mage I described, the templars are no less evil than the demon itself, because the declared purpose of the templars is to kill every single one in the only world you know: the circle of magi.

Modifié par Schattenkeil, 17 avril 2011 - 06:58 .