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[Maria Caliban]

If the Templars invoked the Right of Annulment, and I couldn't kill them with regular magic, I'd probably turn to blood magic and demonic aid. I might even turn myself into an abomination if they have me backed into a corner.

That said, I'm not convinced demonic possess is altogether voluntary.

[Ryzaki]

JabbaDaHutt30 wrote...

there's a problem if you threaten open violence against someone and use their reaction as justification for your methods.

But that's just the issue.

If mages were allowed to live as freely as other people. When they were backed into corners that other people would simply die in they affect far more than just themselves.

And doesn't even have to be condoned violence. If a bandit was threatening a mage and they turn inton an abomination and rampage killing both bandits and innocents alike what are you supposed to say to the victims? Well it's not their fault they were backed in a corner? What kind of comfort is that? 

[Schattenkeil]

Ryzaki wrote...

Thankfully allof them don't. The only mages I felt bad about cutting down was that small group of mages right before you leave lowtown. None of them turn to bloodmages/demons (at least not on normal). And I had to cut them down. I wish they had surrendered.

There is no point in surrender. The enemy's declared purpose is to wipe out the entire circle. They're not trying to kill you because you're fighting back, they're simply trying to kill you because of what you are. Now I heard in an earlier post some mages  might have been spared, but the expected result of a surrender would still be immediate execution by the templars. That's what the right of annulment is about. And they'd go on with the more of the people you hold dear once they're done with you.

The situation with the bandit is different. A bandit will not methodically kill all your people and is certainly not able to deal with a demon, thus the demon would actually go free. Not every mage who turned into a demon during the right of annulment would necessarily do the same if only their own life was threatened.

Modifié par Schattenkeil, 17 avril 2011 - 10:08 .

[Benchmark]

Ryzaki wrote...

JabbaDaHutt30 wrote...

there's a problem if you threaten open violence against someone and use their reaction as justification for your methods.

But that's just the issue.

If mages were allowed to live as freely as other people. When they were backed into corners that other people would simply die in they affect far more than just themselves.

And doesn't even have to be condoned violence. If a bandit was threatening a mage and they turn inton an abomination and rampage killing both bandits and innocents alike what are you supposed to say to the victims? Well it's not their fault they were backed in a corner? What kind of comfort is that? 

This is the issue that the writers tried to present but people seem to miss. Thedas is not a peaceful place. Slavers, bandits, raiders, Carta, Darkspawn, and starvation in Darktown. Normal people are dying all the time.

In "Best Served Cold", Samson defines the parameters. "When backed into a corner, they have options we don't. And I've neer seen one not make that choice yet." Paraphrased.

If some Hedge mage turns to blood magic because his family is starving; then a few weeks later he gets deathly ill and slips into a fever, allowing a demon to possess his body while he is helpless. After going on a rampage he kills all of his family, all of his village, the next 3 villages, and finally gets stopped by a group of Templars that heard about it. Do you explain all that away with, " Well he had a good reason to use blood magic?"

[Maria Caliban]

Benchmark wrote...

If some Hedge mage turns to blood magic because his family is starving; then a few weeks later he gets deathly ill and slips into a fever, allowing a demon to possess his body while he is helpless. After going on a rampage he kills all of his family, all of his village, the next 3 villages, and finally gets stopped by a group of Templars that heard about it. Do you explain all that away with, " Well he had a good reason to use blood magic?"

If a mage is weak enough due to illness that a demon can possess them then that mage will become an abomination whether they live in the Circle or as an apostate, whether they practice blood magic or don't.

That said, we don't have any indication that physical illness weakens one to demonic possession.

[Ryzaki]

Schattenkeil wrote...
There is no point in surrender. The enemy's declared purpose is to wipe out the entire circle. They're not trying to kill you because you're fighting back, they're simply trying to kill you because of what you are. Now I heard in an earlier post some mages  might have been spared, but the expected result of a surrender would still be immediate execution by the templars. That's what the right of annulment is about. And they'd go on with the more of the people you hold dear once they're done with you.

The situation with the bandit is different. A bandit will not methodically kill all your people and is certainly not able to deal with a demon, thus the demon would actually go free. Not every mage who turned into a demon during the right of annulment would necessarily do the same if only their own life was threatened.

If there was no point in surrender those mages that surrender to Hawke wouldn't have been spared in my game. Same with Origins and the mages you meet on the top of the tower.

Sure some might expect it. Some others might expect leniancy. As for killing those and your friends yes that's true. You're fighting back for the surivival of yourself and other mages. What good is survivial if you utterly lose your humanity in the process and harm those you're trying to save? Abominations attack everyone you're still putting your family and friends in danger. You kill a few templars just for them to arrive in more force and you need to be put down. And hopefully you didn't attack your friends before the templars manage to kill you (They're an entire army. You're better off running then trying to turn into a beast and fight in a frenzy).

First off the mage (the girl you first see) turns into an abomination not just because "OMG MY PEOPLE ARE IN DANGER." all mages don't think that way. Heck if I'm gonna be honest I doubt *most* mages feel that way. I don't feel a kinship with someone just because we have the same genetic condition. The situation with the bandit is different how? Your life and the life of those you may love are still in danger. And you are still a mage. Helpless and powerless against a more powerful force. What are you going to do? Let you and your family get slaughtered? Or again take the chance to overwhelm them with power? (Even if you end up killing your family/friends too). And while some mages are close and family, like anything else there will be rivals, people you barely know and so on. The mages aren't one big happy family.

You're not getting the analogy. The bandit is the templar not the mage. The mage will react to danger in a similar manner. If they'll turn to demons to take out just a few more templars, they will turn to demons to take out just a few more bandits.

That said every mage didn't turn into a abomination because other mages were threatened. The mage girl specifically was talking about herself. "No don't kill me I haven't done anything wrong!" there were no other mages with her for her to be concerned over. She had fled alone and been cornered.

[ydaraishy]

Recall also that DA2 firmly establishes that templars can be possessed as well.

This throws the "mage equation" right out of the water.

[Joy Divison]

Demonic possession need not be voluntary; in fact from what I gather of DA lore it is most often not.

Modifié par Joy Divison, 17 avril 2011 - 10:32 .

[Maria Caliban]

ydaraishy wrote...

Recall also that DA2 firmly establishes that templars can be possessed as well.

This throws the "mage equation" right out of the water.

A templar can be possessed if a blood mage captures them and tries to force a demon into them.

Again, without the mage, we wouldn't have possession.

[HogarthHughes 3]

The templars could only be possessed because demons were being forcibly implanted in them, this has been explained as only being possible through blood magic or a demon outside the fade. I'm not exactly sure what the rules are for trees however, as they're still living. It seems that they can be possessed as easily as corpses however. Some people here seem to think that blood magic somehow makes one more vulnerable to demonic possession, that would only be the case if they made a deal that allowed the demon to possess them. Unless they're using the slippery slope argument that because they're willing to use blood magic, they're more likely to let a demon possess them.

[Joy Divison]

Medhia Nox wrote...

I would have been "fighting" long before Ander's little stunt. I would have been fighting with words, and with conscientious objection. Non-violent, non-cooperation since the moment I succeeded in my Harrowing.

I would have been an Aequatarian to be sure - because there are many things I would not disagree with in this world. Mages must be watched and the Templars are a good way to keep them in check. Mages are dangerous - and mages are not "born equal" to the populace. They cannot be afforded the freedoms of men deprived of the ability to fight back on equal ground.

I am staunchly against blood magic, demon summoning, necromancy and any form of abomination. Even Wynne should have allowed herself to die. However, her situation is slightly different and I might learn to think differently of her, and accept her possession - but it would never change my opinion on abominations.

So - when Anders did his little stunt, I would have likely been forced to turn against my Circle if they insisted on joining the rebellion. First, I would simply walk away from the Circle. Mages are not "my people" - as a minority in real life, I can state confidently that I don't have "a people" solely due to genetic rarity.

If I were not allowed to leave the Circle, I would likely accept imprisonment. If imprisonment was not an option, I would use magical force against my fellow mages.

If I were allowed to leave the Circle, I would do so. I would assist the governments of Thedas if allowed - as either a healer, or in combating rogue mages - or I would accept imprisonment. If death was the only option - I would be forced to become an apostate, but I would also likely leave the area. Find a home in some foreign land and restrict my magic greatly.

I do not admire the violent revolutionary - and my "life" is not more important than my "soul" (not interested in arguing the existence of a soul). Its corruption, especially in a world like Thedas, would be a far greater "sin" than death ever would.

So - yeah, ultimately, I'd probably end up serving some nation of Thedas fighting against the new Resolutionist mages.

Admireable, but your last sentence is overly optimistic.

If the other mages - who most will see you as "their people" - do not fireball you for being a traitor, then a group of templars who say something to the effect that "the law is clear mage" will kill you as what happened to the scared mage you first run into after Merideth calls the Rite of Annulment.

Modifié par Joy Divison, 17 avril 2011 - 10:33 .

[LobselVith8]

ydaraishy wrote...

Recall also that DA2 firmly establishes that templars can be possessed as well.

This throws the "mage equation" right out of the water.

Mages aren't the only ones who can be possessed. Even the mage protagonist in the Magi Origin brings this up.

[ydaraishy]

Maria Caliban wrote...

ydaraishy wrote...

Recall also that DA2 firmly establishes that templars can be possessed as well.

This throws the "mage equation" right out of the water.

A templar can be possessed if a blood mage captures them and tries to force a demon into them.

Again, without the mage, we wouldn't have possession.

If that is the case, then it means that mages cannot be contained by templars, their intended purpose.

[EmperorSahlertz]

I think pretty much anything can be possessed, it is only mages who become Abominations however. I seem to recall an old discussion about this subject. DG clarified, that while anything could be possessed, it was only when you combined the might of a mage and a demon (or fade spirit, whatev) you would get an Abomination.
And for a non-mage to be possessed it would either have to be forced on him by a mage, or he would have to be in an area where the veil is particularly thin. A mage can become possessed any time, any where.

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 17 avril 2011 - 10:41 .

[Maria Caliban]

As I understand it, non-mage abominations are:
1) incredibly rare
2) weaksause

Demons who are able to enter the mortal realm *on their own* can animate non-living things, but that's not an abomination.

[Maria Caliban]

ydaraishy wrote...

If that is the case, then it means that mages cannot be contained by templars, their intended purpose.

Templars are the military arm of the chantry. That's like saying the purpose of the US army is to serve as peacekeepers in Iraq. It's one thing they do, but it's part of a large set of duties.

That said, I'm not sure what your point is. Las Vegas has a murder rate of .08, that's 80 people a year. Would you say that the LVPD has failed in its intended purpose?

[ydaraishy]

Maria Caliban wrote...

ydaraishy wrote...

If that is the case, then it means that mages cannot be contained by templars, their intended purpose.

Templars are the military arm of the chantry. That's like saying the purpose of the US army is to serve as peacekeepers in Iraq. It's one thing they do, but it's part of a large set of duties.

That said, I'm not sure what your point is. Las Vegas has a murder rate of .08, that's 80 people a year. Would you say that the LVPD has failed in its intended purpose?

My point is that the simplistic view that if you lock up all the mages in a Circle and put templars everywhere you have effectively contained all the mages, ie., the previous Thedosian status quo, is a false one.

(I'm going to set aside the real-world analogy because there's a much richer discussion there about the use of force, authority, coercion, and voluntary self-determination that, while applicable to this discussion, would probably be moving towards being out of scope here)

[Maria Caliban]

ydaraishy wrote...

My point is that the simplistic view that if you lock up all the mages in a Circle and put templars everywhere you have effectively contained all the mages, ie., the previous Thedosian status quo, is a false one.

Yes, that would be a false viewpoint.

Then again, it's one we never encounter in the game. At no time has anyone said that all the mages are contained in Thedas.

[ydaraishy]

Maria Caliban wrote...

ydaraishy wrote...

My point is that the simplistic view that if you lock up all the mages in a Circle and put templars everywhere you have effectively contained all the mages, ie., the previous Thedosian status quo, is a false one.

Yes, that would be a false viewpoint.

Then again, it's one we never encounter in the game. At no time has anyone said that all the mages are contained in Thedas.

Of course not -- that is why we have apostates after all -- but the limit point, the desired outcome in the current system is that every mage should be in a Circle.

[Maria Caliban]

Yes. That's the desired outcome.

[Mnemnosyne]

I absolutely would turn to a demon.  At the very last moment, when I see no other chance for survival, when I have no other options, when I know without doubt that I am going to die, then hell yes I'll let a demon in, turn into an abomination, and hope that I retain some sense of self and maintain a bit of my own will.  Before that, I will try every other possible option - fighting on my own, fleeing, hiding, etc.  But at the end, when I'm backed against the wall with no other options, I will do anything, absolutely anything to take down my enemies and perhaps, just maybe, have a chance that I might survive in one way or another.  

Hell, in a situation like that where I know the end might be near, I might pre-arrange a deal if I possibly can in order to get the best possible terms for myself, and to hopefully get the most powerful demon available, so I can wreak as much destruction on my enemies as possible.

But even if I don't maintain any sense of self or will, I'm still happy.  Because if I'm going down, I'm taking you with me!

[Ivers0803]

While I see their view point somethings are worse than death, such as the losing control of yourself either through tranqulity or possesion.

[Aurelet]

I personally don't think most of the mages "turned to demons". They were possessed in their moment of weakness due to the thin viel around kirkwall.

[Benchmark]

Koyasha wrote...

I absolutely would turn to a demon.  At the very last moment, when I see no other chance for survival, when I have no other options, when I know without doubt that I am going to die, then hell yes I'll let a demon in, turn into an abomination, and hope that I retain some sense of self and maintain a bit of my own will.  Before that, I will try every other possible option - fighting on my own, fleeing, hiding, etc.  But at the end, when I'm backed against the wall with no other options, I will do anything, absolutely anything to take down my enemies and perhaps, just maybe, have a chance that I might survive in one way or another.  

Hell, in a situation like that where I know the end might be near, I might pre-arrange a deal if I possibly can in order to get the best possible terms for myself, and to hopefully get the most powerful demon available, so I can wreak as much destruction on my enemies as possible.

But even if I don't maintain any sense of self or will, I'm still happy.  Because if I'm going down, I'm taking you with me!

And this is why we cant have nice things... /grumble

[Maria Caliban]

I wonder to what extent we're supposed to perceive becoming an abomination as a danger.

I getting the feeling that if a mage has successfully undergone the Harrowing, the chances of them becoming an abomination are meant to be very slim. That we constantly come across abominations seems to be more gameplay than lore. Frequently in DA II, abominations simply raised out of the ground to attack me and weren't possessed mages at all.

Abominations are the rationale for the Circle to take children from their families and raise them in the Circle, but that's not for post-Harrowing, adult mages have to stay in the Circle.

That is more about the power of mages in general.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 18 avril 2011 - 01:24 .