133 réponses à ce sujet

[tmp7704]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Frequently in DA II, abominations simply raised out of the ground to attack me and weren't possessed mages at all.

Think whenever that happened these were Shades, i.e. the supposed form of sloth demon which doesn't bother to possess anything after it crosses the Veil, iirc.

There was couple arcane horrors rising from the ground in DA2, but these would tend to come as part of quest that had such abomination imprisoned forever and whatnot. I don't recall it being frequent event.

[Benchmark]

Does any of it matter? Shades, demons, abominations, and blood mages were popping up like whack-a-mole. What have we really learned from all this?

I think TheAngryOne posted in another thread a comment I liked.

"Don't build a circle on the top of a hell-mouth!"

[Maria Caliban]

Benchmark wrote...

Does any of it matter?

It matters as much as anything in this conversation can be said to matter.

[Thibbledorf26]

AlexXIV wrote...

Well yes, using bloodmagic and calling demons didn't help any mage in Kirkwall. At best it gave the templars the excuses they needed to tighten their grip. Kinda makes you wonder how mages are supposed more intelligent than the common person.

Mages aren't necessarily more intelligent than the average person, magic is their main stat and it represents magic talent. The closest ability score to intelligence is cunning. Mages do read a lot to learn techniques, but honestly I think Chantry priests or academics would be more well-read and knowledgable about the world

[Ivers0803]

mages spend their lives studying books on the theory of magic, how it effects their world, etc. The common man in thedas probably has not seen a book let alone read one, sounds more intellgent to me

Modifié par Ivers0803, 18 avril 2011 - 02:08 .

[Maria Caliban]

There's a difference between intelligence and education.

[lockdown51]

I really don't think the mages are smart nor educated. Really, all the mages in Kirkwall are just too stupid to live. There is no way to argue this once I present my findings. Proof can be found in the ingame cinematic where the templar storm the Gallows. The templar have to be funneled through a SINGLE OPENING! The ever so smart mages WAIT until the templar are in MELEE range, WATCH the templar cut down 3 mages, and ONLY THEN start hurling spells.

Now even my kid sister, who does not play military games, knows that your best shot of survival would have been to spam spells at the choke point. Even as panic reaction to all the men in armor with swards charging at you. Discounting everything else, this alone proves that the mages in Kirkwall are too stupid to be allowed outside without supervision.

[Schattenkeil]

Ryzaki wrote...

If there was no point in surrender those mages that surrender to Hawke wouldn't have been spared in my game. Same with Origins and the mages you meet on the top of the tower.

The mages in the tower weren't the enemy, the darkspawn was. On the contrary, you were there to save the mages, alone the vast majority of them was already dead. If an enemy declares he will wipe you out entirely, you must assume that to be true. That argument is extremely cynical to me. You should behave like a sheep on the way to the slaughterer, just in case he spares you for behaving nice.
A handful of mages turn into demons after extensive torture for that exact purpose. The vast majority of the mages in the  tower simply died fighting.

Sure some might expect it. Some others might expect leniancy. As for killing those and your friends yes that's true. You're fighting back for the surivival of yourself and other mages. What good is survivial if you utterly lose your humanity in the process and harm those you're trying to save? Abominations attack everyone you're still putting your family and friends in danger. You kill a few templars just for them to arrive in more force and you need to be put down. And hopefully you didn't attack your friends before the templars manage to kill you (They're an entire army. You're better off running then trying to turn into a beast and fight in a frenzy).

Whether or not you provoke the templars even further is irrelevant. The right of annulment is absolute, it cannot get any worse. An unleashed demon is preferable to an unleashed templar, because a demon is at least not trying to mages in particular. A templar does. A templar is in the given context more harmful than a demon. Unleashing a demon is preferable to leaving a templar alive. Not because I hate that individual templar but because the templars intent to exterminate the entire circle.

Additionally, that the demon actually goes loose, does not seem very likely to me. It will probably kill several templars on the way, but that's exactly what you want.

First off the mage (the girl you first see) turns into an abomination not just because "OMG MY PEOPLE ARE IN DANGER." all mages don't think that way. Heck if I'm gonna be honest I doubt *most* mages feel that way. I don't feel a kinship with someone just because we have the same genetic condition. The situation with the bandit is different how? Your life and the life of those you may love are still in danger. And you are still a mage. Helpless and powerless against a more powerful force. What are you going to do? Let you and your family get slaughtered? Or again take the chance to overwhelm them with power? (Even if you end up killing your family/friends too). And while some mages are close and family, like anything else there will be rivals, people you barely know and so on. The mages aren't one big happy family.

A mage grows up confined within the circle. The mages are not your family, they are your people. The circle of magi is the world you know as you grow up. Other people, the outside world exists only on abstract level to you. They are there but they don't relate to you. What happens to them is what like what happens to people in a very distant country.

You're not getting the analogy. The bandit is the templar not the mage. The mage will react to danger in a similar manner. If they'll turn to demons to take out just a few more templars, they will turn to demons to take out just a few more bandits.

I am getting the analogy... that's exactly how I meant it. And I don't think they'll turn to demons so easily, because it's a different situation.

That said every mage didn't turn into a abomination because other mages were threatened. The mage girl specifically was talking about herself. "No don't kill me I haven't done anything wrong!" there were no other mages with her for her to be concerned over. She had fled alone and been cornered.

Well, that's true. However, if other mages had been nearby, it would have been a bad idea to let a demon in, because the demon would have endangered those as well and the shot might have backfired.

I think the concept you don't grasp is how absolute the right of annulment is  and, even more importanlty, in a war you want the enemy dead. As long as the right of annulment is exercised there can be no compromise by definition because it implies total annihilation. Whatever kills a templar is a good thing. From a mage's  perspective ideally all templars are completely wiped out, or the cease to exercise their right of annulment. Invoking the right of annulment is a declaration of war that the templars chose. This may sound harsh, but it is simply the reallity of war, a war that was the templar's choice.

Another problem is I think this: "Demons are evil" and that's were the thinking stops. What matters are the consequences, not principles. If the result of letting a demon into the world is desirable, I would, under extreme circumstances - such as the total annihilation of your people.

Modifié par Schattenkeil, 18 avril 2011 - 09:16 .

[Medhia Nox]

If any of you have ever met a PhD - you will know that a person who has a tunnel vision education is often NOT more intelligent than his more broadly educated peers. I apologize for offending any PhDs who are on this thread - but my experience has shown me this.

Someone who studied magic - would likely not have time to study any other curriculum. That likely means mathematics, sciences, arts, literature, history, (and of course athletics and martial training) etc. would all fall by the wayside. We have no indication that the Circles teach anything but magic...

That, coupled with the fact that most mages are not allowed out of the tower on social calls, would leave mages woefully ignorant of how anything other than "Fireball" works. And - outside of an RPG - fireball is actually pitifully limited in its utility. ((Of course, one can argue that "in the background" mages are learning more useful spells like "Shape Earth to Brick")).

That's why I believe these rebellions - despite being wrong on a moral ground (opinion) - are so tactically flawed. They're rebellion purely from an emotional state - and mages of Thedas shouldn't do ANYTHING from an emotional state given how the Fade and Spirits react to emotion.

The problem is - is that we have no real examples of what mages "do" outside of study and fight Darkspawn (and now, evidently - throw world-wide hissy fits). Surely - if they serve the nations of Thedas in some capacity - through enchantments, through more practical magic, etc. they would have had bargaining power long before some moron bombs a church.

====

As for Kirkwall - that Circle was so poorly guarded I would have known what was coming LONG before Grace and Alric (?) have their little Templar/Mage rebellion meetings. For a place supposedly so much like a prison - mages sure did have the run of the city and the outlying areas.

As for Post-Anders: I don't think rebellion = "Rite of Annulment". After all - the Templars are in rebellion... we're told every (really, every? So dumb) mage Circle is rebelling... the Qunari will likely prove a threat soon... and who knows what's happening with the Darkspawn (but something, to be sure).

So - I'm actually quite confident that those mages who are willing to leave their Circles would be allowed to serve the nations of Thedas. It wouldn't be so easy as that - loyalty would be in constant question - but how would that be different than before? And, I believe, rightfully so.

The question would come from the traitor mages. Would they allow Loyalists and Aequatarians to leave? Or, would they prove as evil and oppressive as the people they claim to be overthrowing?

@Schattenkeil - biological warfare, chemical warfare - there are many banned forms of warfare because the damage they cause is SO horrendous that no wars justifies its use. So yes, "Demons are evil" is a good enough reason never to resort to such debase measures....

Committing atrocities to prove to people who thought you were evil - that you're actually good - isn't going to work.

[Joy Divison]

Medhia Nox wrote...

If any of you have ever met a PhD - you will know that a person who has a tunnel vision education is often NOT more intelligent than his more broadly educated peers. I apologize for offending any PhDs who are on this thread - but my experience has shown me this.

Someone who studied magic - would likely not have time to study any other curriculum. That likely means mathematics, sciences, arts, literature, history, (and of course athletics and martial training) etc. would all fall by the wayside. We have no indication that the Circles teach anything but magic...

That, coupled with the fact that most mages are not allowed out of the tower on social calls, would leave mages woefully ignorant of how anything other than "Fireball" works. And - outside of an RPG - fireball is actually pitifully limited in its utility. ((Of course, one can argue that "in the background" mages are learning more useful spells like "Shape Earth to Brick")).

That's why I believe these rebellions - despite being wrong on a moral ground (opinion) - are so tactically flawed. They're rebellion purely from an emotional state - and mages of Thedas shouldn't do ANYTHING from an emotional state given how the Fade and Spirits react to emotion.

The problem is - is that we have no real examples of what mages "do" outside of study and fight Darkspawn (and now, evidently - throw world-wide hissy fits). Surely - if they serve the nations of Thedas in some capacity - through enchantments, through more practical magic, etc. they would have had bargaining power long before some moron bombs a church.

This assumption, while plausible, is not supported by a GW or Hawke gameplay.  Just about all the mages you see do not have social deficiencies.  The old geezer in your mage origin recognized what a teenage prank was, Wynne had a strong and amenable personality, Irving was competant in his interactions with all the various people he came across, Anders was (in Awakenings) charsimatic, etc.  Emile (the guy who wants to get laid at the Hanged Man) is the exeception.  And the Library at the Tower Circle in Fereldan has books on ancient langauges and history, i.e. the Renaissance ideal education you seem to suggest is necessary for a person to function and be of use in a civil society.

If anything, I'd say the Templars suffer from a greater tunnel vision complex since they aren;t even allowed to get laid, are drug adicts, and their lives are dedicated to but one single purpose: hunt mages.

I strongly contest your notion that a mage rebellion would stem from emotion and lack the wonderful idealism that marks the likes of dubious historical figures like Danton, Bukharin, and Guevara which sophisticated intellectuals secretly admire.

@Schattenkeil - biological warfare, chemical warfare - there are many banned forms of warfare because the damage they cause is SO horrendous that no wars justifies its use.

That's not entirely true.  Nations agreed to ban them because they are ineffective weapons that militarily create more problems than they solve.  And this did not stop The US and USSR to devote massive monies to further research into them anyway.  Those "SO horrendous" weapons which are militarily effective such as landmines, napalm, etc. are under and will not be under such prohibition.

[NitaW]

I'm not sure that every mage that made the decision to let a demon in did it with the understanding that they were sacrificing themselves to kill their immediate attackers and everyone else. Most of the mages who turned to blood magic and demons seemed to do it with the thought that they would be able to "handle" the demon and make deals to say in control. Kind of like certain addictions ... according to some, people try smoking (or do drugs, or any number of vices) because they are in control, and NOT addicted. Do 100% of people come down with lung cancer? No doubt 100% of mages are not possessed (just a very large number). Given that the veil is thin in Kirkwall, I imagine making it easier for the demons to whisper promises, that everyone I have ever met believes him/herself to be in control of almost any situation which could come up, it is easy to believe that mages backed into a corner would open themselves because it is "only a small possibility" that they are possessed immediately. For the first gambits with a demon, it seems that the demon does not gain full control immediately unless completely unleashed without bargains/guards. Just saying.

[Medhia Nox]

@Joy-Division: Knowing what a prank is - isn't the same thing as knowing what crop rotation is. These mages will be forced to coerce non-mages into working for them - or, the rebellion will fall apart. There is no way that a minority can fight a war alone (nobody is going to help them) - and provide all the basic essentials being a "freedom fighter" would entail. Commoners likely hated mages before the rebellion - now with Ander's terrorist stunt, and an attack on their faith - I wouldn't believe a story where common people just rallied behind people that could become abominations.

And I'm sorry - if you're "Final Exam" suggested you might turn into an abomination and be cut down - I think the last thing you're going to study is something that would have no bearing on that moment. Not to mention - it would likely be a rare mage that wanted to know history at the expense of learning more magic.

I was talking about education - not personality. While many highly educated people I have met have been socially handicapped - I was actually only talking about their extremely specialized knowledge base. So - talking about Wynne and Irving and how nice they were isn't exactly applicable to the point I was trying to make.

Look at Morrigan - she's an apostate and she's woefully ignorant of the world. All she's done is study magic and run from Templars her entire life. And she had free reign to visit human settlements.

And I don't think Anders was charismatic at all - I thought he was a petulant child who was more than a little insane (and I never played Awakenings - so this is my only impression of Anders) - the game forced me to ally with him. Otherwise I would have turned him in the first chance I had.

===

As far as weapons - you can argue real world all you want. If you start summoning and becoming demons - you're only going to make the world hate you more. It's not going to win - unless winning means you want to become Tevinter Imperium Part 2.

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 18 avril 2011 - 04:46 .

[Ryzaki]

I think the concept you don't grasp is how absolute the right of annulment is and, even more importanlty, in a war you want the enemy dead. As long as the right of annulment is exercised there can be no compromise by definition because it implies total annihilation. Whatever kills a templar is a good thing. From a mage's perspective ideally all templars are completely wiped out, or the cease to exercise their right of annulment. Invoking the right of annulment is a declaration of war that the templars chose. This may sound harsh, but it is simply the reallity of war, a war that was the templar's choice.

Another problem is I think this: "Demons are evil" and that's were the thinking stops. What matters are the consequences, not principles. If the result of letting a demon into the world is desirable, I would, under extreme circumstances - such as the total annihilation of your people.

What you're not getting is it doesn't matter how absolute the rite is to someone who wants to survive.  The rite isn't a war it's a slaughter. And most of the time the rite wasn't the templar's choice. (I.E. "Hi Fereldan circle with abominations running rampant!) Those are the situations the rite is supposed to be used in. Meredith abused the rite of annullment. 

Also: The Templars are an army. Anyone with half a brain will realize eventually you're gonna be slaughtered. The templars will just keep coming they have countries on their side, the people on their side. The only thing you have is magic (that can be nulffied by the people they're sending against you), bloodmagic (if you know it), and demons that'll take you over. 

If a mage will turn to a demon to survive templars. They will do the same for bandits. It's not more complicated than that. They turned to the demons at the end of the day because their life was in danger. (Like that girl during the Wayward Son quest) it has little to do with how much in danger others around them were. (The only mage we see doing anything because other mages were in danger is Orsino and he turns into a giant harvester thing). 

Edit: I never said I don't understand them doing it. I just feel no sympathy for them. They should be cut down if they're willing to endanger other people's lives to get free. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 18 avril 2011 - 05:23 .

[Maria Caliban]

Medhia Nox wrote...

Look at Morrigan - she's an apostate and she's woefully ignorant of the world. All she's done is study magic and run from Templars her entire life. And she had free reign to visit human settlements.

That's the opposite of what she tells the Warden. She talks about wanting to visit the various places that she's only read about in books as well as being knowledgeable in history. From what we know about her in DA:O, Morrigan has a great deal of book learning in everything that isn't religion.

The idea that mages are only taught magic is simply a guess on your part, and you haven't backed it up with actual evidence. I could just as easily say that mages in the Circle are given a wide, formal education while apostates get whatever education is normal for their non-magical peers.

[Wulfram]

Ryzaki wrote...

Also: The Templars are an army. Anyone with half a brain will realize eventually you're gonna be slaughtered. The templars will just keep coming they have countries on their side, the people on their side. The only thing you have is magic (that can be nulffied by the people they're sending against you), bloodmagic (if you know it), and demons that'll take you over. 
 

You just need to blast your way through the ones in your way to freedom, not defeat the whole Templar order.

[Benchmark]

Wulfram wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Also: The Templars are an army. Anyone with half a brain will realize eventually you're gonna be slaughtered. The templars will just keep coming they have countries on their side, the people on their side. The only thing you have is magic (that can be nulffied by the people they're sending against you), bloodmagic (if you know it), and demons that'll take you over. 
 

You just need to blast your way through the ones in your way to freedom, not defeat the whole Templar order.

True, true. I think Ryzaki's point is that you do it using the forms of magic that aren't so uncontrollable that they threaten all of Thedas.

During the Templar path of the RoA three mages try and surrender. Cullen states that they never resorted to blood magic even to save themselves. He then argues with Meredith, that even if they can't tell if the three are secretly blood mages, showing mercy and not judging them without evidence- then being willing to dedicate their lives to watching them- was what being a Templar means.

[Benchmark]

Joy Divison wrote...


If anything, I'd say the Templars suffer from a greater tunnel vision complex since they aren;t even allowed to get laid, are drug adicts, and their lives are dedicated to but one single purpose: hunt mages.

@Schattenkeil - biological warfare, chemical warfare - there are many banned forms of warfare because the damage they cause is SO horrendous that no wars justifies its use.

That's not entirely true.  Nations agreed to ban them because they are ineffective weapons that militarily create more problems than they solve.  And this did not stop The US and USSR to devote massive monies to further research into them anyway.  Those "SO horrendous" weapons which are militarily effective such as landmines, napalm, etc. are under and will not be under such prohibition.

Ser Wesley was married and even though they didn't have children it is obvious that Aveline and Wesley were intimate. Lyrium addiction is a risk, but it is not a guarantee. Alistair says that it isn't necessary I think when you ask him about using it. The only real junkie you ever see is Samson, but the only other effect of lyrium that gets spoken of is the withdrawal symptoms and health risk to using it. It is close to a drug but it isn't a narcotic that makes them unstable or gives them pleasure.

The distinction between chemical/biological weapons and the landmines/napalm is that chem/bio weapons are inherently uncontrollable. You can't stop the virus from spreading to new populations and potentially killing the entire civilian population. Napalm doesn't continue spreading, and landmines can only kill once. Cambodia regrettably was left with thousands of one time killers that maimed their civilians, but it was never a risk of wiping out significant numbers.

Chem and bio weapons can get into ground water, livestock, plant life, and make whole regions unlivable. Another really good example would be nuclear missles. Is there a point in winning a war if you cause a nuclear winter? Should you be trusted with nuclear weapons if you say yes?

[Wulfram]

Benchmark wrote...

True, true. I think Ryzaki's point is that you do it using the forms of magic that aren't so uncontrollable that they threaten all of Thedas.

I don't see much evidence that demons constitute such a threat.  Uldred seems to have fairly grandiose plans - he's a pride abomination after all - but was well contained by the Templars, while in what we know of Thedas' history demons seem to play a pretty minor role compared to darkspawn, Qunari and wars between human protagonists.

[Medhia Nox]

@Maria Caliban - it's true, I'm making assumptions. Assumptions based on the idea that "magic" is an intellectual study - heck, even the Harry Potter mages don't learn much else than magic and that's from ages 11 - 18, and most mages know only enough magic to get buy in their particular task.

People who are "masters" of their craft don't focus on a broad range of other pursuits... so, mages who know "fireball" and "History of Thedas" - likely didn't have time to learn "Grow Crops" spell. Still requiring them to depend on the populace of non-mages who - and I don't think more proof than what's in both games is needed - pretty much universally distrust/hate mages.

So sure, I suppose Dragon Age could be lazy fantasy. Magic so easy to learn that it leaves plenty of room for mages to be the "Super Awesome" button of Thedas. I don't want to think of it that way - I rather enjoy a good deal about the world, but I have to accept it as a possibility.

If that's the case - and, by your own apt observation I can really provide no reason to assume it isn't. I suppose I even find the Harry Potter universe more cohesive than Dragon Age - and that's aimed for 12 year olds and far more of a fairy tale world than a fantasy world.

It's not meant to be picked apart for any sort of cohesion - it sits safely in 'make-believe'. I prefer my fantasy worlds to be explorable - not just lazy hand waving to suit a purpose (unavoidable sometimes of course - but a minimum is appreciated).

====

Doesn't change the fact that I would stand against any mage who uses blood magic, demon summoning, necromancy, and/or becomes an abomination. I would also not support the rebellion in any fashion.

====

Concering Morrigan - looking at a picture of Val Royeaux and wanting to visit it isn't the same as knowing the complete history of Orlais, or the Chantry. Perhaps she read up on some topics - or perhaps she just knows enough to romanticize about going to these places.

Also - if she's so learned - I don't recall her providing any information about any other place than her little stretch of swamp. While Leliana seems much more worldly. However - she is a powerhouse of magical knowledge - and rightfully so.

[Camenae]

I think I agree with Medhia Nox. What counts as "winning" for the mages? If "winning" is stirring up rebellion, causing change, any change whatsoever, then I suppose the mages won. But if "winning" is establishing a different system, where mages somehow peacefully co-exist with the non-magical folks...Of course everything is speculation at this point, but I just don't see how the mage rebellion can possibly "win" without beating the common Muggles into submission.

With any rebellion, revolution, or any military action whatsoever, logistics is crucial. A man marches on his stomach. Unless the mages don't eat, don't drink, don't need clothing for different types of weather, etc. or can conjure every single last thing they need (which I suppose is possible), how can they possibly gain any type of long-term success without at least the tacit cooperation of the commoners?

No matter how the player views the Chantry/Andrastian faith, I think the average person in Thedas is not going to take the destruction of a major symbol of their faith very well. And if the commoners are openly hostile to mages, then I do not see this minority holding out for very long, at least not without fully utilizing the power differential (ie their magic) to force cooperation. And I'm guessing that is not their goal.

[Benchmark]

Wulfram wrote...

Benchmark wrote...

True, true. I think Ryzaki's point is that you do it using the forms of magic that aren't so uncontrollable that they threaten all of Thedas.

I don't see much evidence that demons constitute such a threat.  Uldred seems to have fairly grandiose plans - he's a pride abomination after all - but was well contained by the Templars, while in what we know of Thedas' history demons seem to play a pretty minor role compared to darkspawn, Qunari and wars between human protagonists.

I guess that's it right there. I wonder what would happen to any of these demonic possessions if there wasn't a militant order that specializes in fighting magic and fade influences. How many non-Hawkes would it take to kill one anger demon?

They don't really talk about Thedas "before" Andraste except to say, happy elves and evil magic empire.

[Dhanni]

Someone may have mentioned this already, but Anders states at one point that in order to be capable of blood magic you have to make a deal with a demon.  So, are we to believe that all these mages who seem to spontaneously erupt with blood magic have done that?  What - just in case? 

It doesn't make sense but there are a lot of things in the game that don't.

[Wulfram]

Benchmark wrote...

I guess that's it right there. I wonder what would happen to any of these demonic possessions if there wasn't a militant order that specializes in fighting magic and fade influences. How many non-Hawkes would it take to kill one anger demon?

There's certainly a chance of causing a lot of civilian casualties, but that's war, unfortunately.

They don't really talk about Thedas "before" Andraste except to say, happy elves and evil magic empire.

Still, Tevinter past and - going by what we hear from Fenris - present seems to suggest that the people you should worry about are the unpossessed and thus still rational mages, not the crazy demons and abominations.

[hoorayforicecream]

Dhanni wrote...

Someone may have mentioned this already, but Anders states at one point that in order to be capable of blood magic you have to make a deal with a demon.  So, are we to believe that all these mages who seem to spontaneously erupt with blood magic have done that?  What - just in case? 

It doesn't make sense but there are a lot of things in the game that don't.

Anders isn't the most knowledgeable on the subject. Typically, mages in Thedas learn blood magic from one of three sources:
- Studying a book, written by a blood mage, e.g. Jowan
- Learning it from another blood mage, e.g. Grace
- Making a deal with a demon (the only ones who still remember how it works), e.g. Merrill

The main issue is that the vast majority of blood magic knowledge was lost centuries before, so mages are pretty much relegated to trying to piece it back together. Unfortunately, since you either need to learn from a blood mage (who isn't likely to wish to share) or a demon, it pretty much means that most blood mages learn blood magic from demons or those who deal with demons.

[Benchmark]

Wulfram wrote...

There's certainly a chance of causing a lot of civilian casualties, but that's war, unfortunately.

Still, Tevinter past and - going by what we hear from Fenris - present seems to suggest that the people you should worry about are the unpossessed and thus still rational mages, not the crazy demons and abominations.

What war are we talking about? I am talking about mages placed in any life/death situation that normal citizens of Thedas seem to die to every day. If you are talking about a mage/templar war were the mages should feel comfortable that civilian casualties will be limited because the Templars will protect the civilians from their abomination spree... Well I think I already talked about how strange that logic is.

I agree that rational mages could be the most dangerous things in Thedas. Fenris does talk about Templars in the Imperium and what types of abominable actions they witness and are forced to finally stop.