133 réponses à ce sujet

[Joy Divison]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Joy-Division: Knowing what a prank is - isn't the same thing as knowing what crop rotation is. These mages will be forced to coerce non-mages into working for them - or, the rebellion will fall apart. There is no way that a minority can fight a war alone (nobody is going to help them) - and provide all the basic essentials being a "freedom fighter" would entail. Commoners likely hated mages before the rebellion - now with Ander's terrorist stunt, and an attack on their faith - I wouldn't believe a story where common people just rallied behind people that could become abominations.

And I'm sorry - if you're "Final Exam" suggested you might turn into an abomination and be cut down - I think the last thing you're going to study is something that would have no bearing on that moment. Not to mention - it would likely be a rare mage that wanted to know history at the expense of learning more magic.

I was talking about education - not personality. While many highly educated people I have met have been socially handicapped - I was actually only talking about their extremely specialized knowledge base. So - talking about Wynne and Irving and how nice they were isn't exactly applicable to the point I was trying to make.

Look at Morrigan - she's an apostate and she's woefully ignorant of the world. All she's done is study magic and run from Templars her entire life. And she had free reign to visit human settlements.

And I don't think Anders was charismatic at all - I thought he was a petulant child who was more than a little insane (and I never played Awakenings - so this is my only impression of Anders) - the game forced me to ally with him. Otherwise I would have turned him in the first chance I had.

You have admittedly not played Awakenings and I doubt from your characterization of mages you have not played Witch-Hunt.  The Anders in Awkening is literally and figuratively a different person than in DA2.  Finn, the mage you meet in Witch-Hunt, is fascinated w/ history and studys languages and also is not socially handicapped.  If you pay attention in Origins, you hear Duncan comment on all the wonderful books in the library and many of the titles you see in Origins and Witch Hunt are not devoted to magic.

Mage apprenctices also do not know what the Harrowing entails.  It is not a rare mage who wants to study stuff at the expense of magic.  Wynne is quite familair with Chantry lore, there is a botanist fascinated w/ rare plants you meet in Awakenings, Finn and languages/history, Irving demonstrates knowledge of the darkspwn beyond the "boogie-man" stories.  You are assuming mages have a highly specialized knowledge base but have no examples from in-game play or lore to substantiate your claim wheras there are numerous examples which contrdict your assumptions.

Morrigan's lack of knowledge of human social conventions is because she lived in a hut with her mother for her entire life, not because she studied magic.  In fact, she tells you that she "studied history and your Gray Warden treaties," another example of a mage w/ a broad knowledge base.

Also commoners do not hate mages.  Particularly pious ones like Isolde see it as a curse which is something quite different.  Most commoners are supicious of magic and believe that blood magic is evil, mostly out of ignorance; this is not default hatred.

Modifié par Joy Divison, 18 avril 2011 - 07:34 .

[Benchmark]

Joy Divison wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Joy-Division: Knowing what a prank is - isn't the same thing as knowing what crop rotation is. These mages will be forced to coerce non-mages into working for them - or, the rebellion will fall apart. There is no way that a minority can fight a war alone (nobody is going to help them) - and provide all the basic essentials being a "freedom fighter" would entail. Commoners likely hated mages before the rebellion - now with Ander's terrorist stunt, and an attack on their faith - I wouldn't believe a story where common people just rallied behind people that could become abominations.

And I'm sorry - if you're "Final Exam" suggested you might turn into an abomination and be cut down - I think the last thing you're going to study is something that would have no bearing on that moment. Not to mention - it would likely be a rare mage that wanted to know history at the expense of learning more magic.

I was talking about education - not personality. While many highly educated people I have met have been socially handicapped - I was actually only talking about their extremely specialized knowledge base. So - talking about Wynne and Irving and how nice they were isn't exactly applicable to the point I was trying to make.

Look at Morrigan - she's an apostate and she's woefully ignorant of the world. All she's done is study magic and run from Templars her entire life. And she had free reign to visit human settlements.

And I don't think Anders was charismatic at all - I thought he was a petulant child who was more than a little insane (and I never played Awakenings - so this is my only impression of Anders) - the game forced me to ally with him. Otherwise I would have turned him in the first chance I had.

You have admittedly not played Awakenings and I doubt from your characterization of mages you have not played Witch-Hunt.  The Anders in Awkening is literally and figuratively a different person than in DA2.  Finn, the mage you meet in Witch-Hunt, is fascinated w/ history and studys languages and also is not socially handicapped.  If you pay attention in Origins, you hear Duncan comment on all the wonderful books in the library and many of the titles you see in Origins and Witch Hunt are not devoted to magic.

Mage apprenctices also do not know what the Harrowing entails.  It is not a rare mage who wants to study stuff at the expense of magic.  Wynne is quite familair with Chantry lore, there is a botanist fascinated w/ rare plants you meet in Awakenings, Finn and languages/history, Irving demonstrates knowledge of the darkspwn beyond the "boogie-man" stories.  You are assuming mages have a highly specialized knowledge base but have no examples from in-game play or lore to substantiate your claim wheras there are numerous examples which contrdict your assumptions.

Morrigan's lack of knowledge of human social conventions is because she lived in a hut with her mother for her entire life, not because she studied magic.  In fact, she tells you that she "studied history and your Gray Warden treaties," another example of a mage w/ a broad knowledge base.

Also commoners do not hate mages.  Particularly pious ones like Isolde see it as a curse which is something quite different.  Most commoners are supicious of magic and believe that blood magic is evil, mostly out of ignorance; this is not default hatred.

Medhia's point still stands, regardless of the examples in game. Unless magic was an amazingly easy thing to learn, you would have to expect a skilled mage would devote 90% of their time to studying it. There will always be a few people that plateau, and dont train as hard at magic so they can explore new areas. Everyone has that one class in school that just eats up all of your homework time and you can't do anything else if you want to get an A. Multiply that by 10 and make a B potentially life threatening.

That may actually be the case. All of the powerful magic we see could be the extremely rare cases. Fireballs may not even be possible for a normal mage. They may be in the circle because they can glow a little bit, or attract butterflys. But the stories and game want to be fantastical, so the way it portrays mages would definitely imply that constant training in magic is necessary just to keep from being possessed.

[Sad Dragon]

Schattenkeil wrote...

What would you do, in the face of death or tranquility? Would you bow your head? Maybe hoping that, once they have slain enough innocent people who never fought back they'd see their wrongs?

First of all I would like to thank you for the thread, it's fun with a filosophical discussion every now and again. Now for the questions at hand.

Lets look at the facts.

If I surrender and I get really lucky I'll be made Tranquil -- which to me is just one kind of death.
If I surrender and I'm unlucky, they will execute me on the spot. (Which might actualy be preferable to being made Tranquil).

So if I surrender I will die, and those who killed me will kill again.

Now lets get one thing straight -- I don't really want to die, and I'm not keen on letting my killers kill more of my friends (assuming I had friends or people I would think of as family amongst the Circle Mages).

What I can say is that I would use any trick in the grimoire against my attackars -- and yes I would use bloodmagic if I knew how to, or at least use my own blood (or the blood of the templar i just killed) as fule. But I would only do so if my regular powers weren't enough -- aka, blood magic or death.

Now I'm not sure about the abomination thing.
For one I doubt you just choose to become an abomination and it happens, but for the sake of argument lets say I could just close my eyes and become an abomination.

If I become an abomination I am dead so it would only be the final option were I choose between death and death.
Would I choose to become an abomination? Maybe. I would make a quick estimation of potantial collateral damage and the amount of templars I might kill. If the calculation comes up with small collateral damage but high templar losses then yes, without a doubt. If its the other way around, I would proably just do a suicide attack and maybe take one more templar with me.

This is all assuming they dont just shoot me with an arrow while im screaming "If I'm going down, I'm taking you with me!"

-------------------------------------

That being said. I honestly dont think this is remotly what BioWare tried to portray with the abomifications. I personally hold the point of view that they tried to show that there where no good/bad sides in the battle and tried to make the whole thing really ambiguous and being a bit ham handed about it.


- The Sad Dragon

[Ryzaki]

Wulfram wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Also: The Templars are an army. Anyone with half a brain will realize eventually you're gonna be slaughtered. The templars will just keep coming they have countries on their side, the people on their side. The only thing you have is magic (that can be nulffied by the people they're sending against you), bloodmagic (if you know it), and demons that'll take you over. 
 

You just need to blast your way through the ones in your way to freedom, not defeat the whole Templar order.

But my main point was they would need to change into a abomination which would render anything else moot. All abominations do is lash out and try to create more of them/destroy anything around. Becoming an abomination ends any chance of freedom you have. 

The second you try option 2 or 3 you're screwed. No one is going to want to help you, or they'll be unable to help. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 18 avril 2011 - 09:06 .

[Ryzaki]

Camenae wrote...

I think I agree with Medhia Nox. What counts as "winning" for the mages? If "winning" is stirring up rebellion, causing change, any change whatsoever, then I suppose the mages won. But if "winning" is establishing a different system, where mages somehow peacefully co-exist with the non-magical folks...Of course everything is speculation at this point, but I just don't see how the mage rebellion can possibly "win" without beating the common Muggles into submission.

With any rebellion, revolution, or any military action whatsoever, logistics is crucial. A man marches on his stomach. Unless the mages don't eat, don't drink, don't need clothing for different types of weather, etc. or can conjure every single last thing they need (which I suppose is possible), how can they possibly gain any type of long-term success without at least the tacit cooperation of the commoners?

No matter how the player views the Chantry/Andrastian faith, I think the average person in Thedas is not going to take the destruction of a major symbol of their faith very well. And if the commoners are openly hostile to mages, then I do not see this minority holding out for very long, at least not without fully utilizing the power differential (ie their magic) to force cooperation. And I'm guessing that is not their goal.

Also this. 

[Sad Dragon]

What could happen though is that the mages manages to fight the templars to a stand still. Giving them better room to negotiate a new system -- if said new system would still involve templars.

Still, could just as well backlash.

But on that topic I would rather have the change been made over time without bloodshed rather then the by Vengeance going all demonic on us. But that is another topic.

- TSD

[Medhia Nox]

@Joy Division: We are told that the students have all sorts of nightmarish ideas about what the Harrowing entails... and the students do know that those who don't pass, go missing.

Concering "Commoners" and mages: Jory is clearly uncomfortable around mages... Jowan's parents wanted to get rid of him because they were disgusted with him. Hawkes family line is considered polluted by magic. I'm sure I can scour Dragon Age lore for more - but this simply isn't true. Normal folks don't like - or outright hate - mages.

Compounding upon the "training" aspect of magic - we are also told that there are many mages who can't even do more than make light happen. You're evidently born with a ceiling of magic - of course, PCs and NPC recruits aren't going to have this ceiling because players wouldn't find it "fun".

Also - I didn't say mages could never learn anything - but I think it's sloppy writing to present young mages with vast amounts of knowledge beyond magic. And I think it would be younger mages that would be more prone to revolting - and certainly more prone to be on the front lines of the revolution.

A revolution is going to be a demon barbeque fiesta. Look at what happens in Warden's Peak. Avernus weakens the veil and the demon starts cracking up and decides to make quick work of both the Wardens and the invading army. Mages everywhere are going to be tearing the veil - and getting themselves and everyone around them unintentionally devoured by demons.

Again - trying to prove you're innocent and worthy of being treated like everyone else - is not best served by opening 'portals' to the veil and getting everyone devoured by demons.

====

Lastly - the Wardens.

The "best of the best" are often recruited for the Wardens. This leaves the mages undermanned in many areas because the Wardens cannot get into political battles. Warden mages who aren't weak kneed traitors like Anders will not be participating on behalf of the Circles. And I would think the Wardens would actually be forced to put down any group that harbors a traitor Warden.

Doubly so when the reality that the mages will no longer be able to be conscripted as Wardens. The dissolving of the Circles and the rebellion will make the mages out of touch by the Wardens. There is nothing physically stopping them of course, but rebels aren't going to become Grey Wardens - and the nations of Thedas are going to block Wardens from even trying to find them. And when all mages get accused of what the Resolutionists are doing - even Grey Warden mages will be in danger.

This leaves the ranks of the Wardens woefully bereft of new mage recruits - and magic is one of the best weapons against the Darkspawn we're told.

I could even see the Wardens secretly working to put down this rebellion in the name of putting mages back into their ranks.

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 19 avril 2011 - 03:25 .

[Joy Divison]

Benchmark wrote...

Medhia's point still stands, regardless of the examples in game. Unless magic was an amazingly easy thing to learn, you would have to expect a skilled mage would devote 90% of their time to studying it. There will always be a few people that plateau, and dont train as hard at magic so they can explore new areas. Everyone has that one class in school that just eats up all of your homework time and you can't do anything else if you want to get an A. Multiply that by 10 and make a B potentially life threatening.

That may actually be the case. All of the powerful magic we see could be the extremely rare cases. Fireballs may not even be possible for a normal mage. They may be in the circle because they can glow a little bit, or attract butterflys. But the stories and game want to be fantastical, so the way it portrays mages would definitely imply that constant training in magic is necessary just to keep from being possessed.

You are joking right?  Here is what you said:

"I know that the game lore and gameplay disproves my assumptions, but I am right anyway"

Modifié par Joy Divison, 19 avril 2011 - 04:56 .

[Joy Divison]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Joy Division: We are told that the students have all sorts of nightmarish ideas about what the Harrowing entails... and the students do know that those who don't pass, go missing.

Concering "Commoners" and mages: Jory is clearly uncomfortable around mages... Jowan's parents wanted to get rid of him because they were disgusted with him. Hawkes family line is considered polluted by magic. I'm sure I can scour Dragon Age lore for more - but this simply isn't true. Normal folks don't like - or outright hate - mages.

Compounding upon the "training" aspect of magic - we are also told that there are many mages who can't even do more than make light happen. You're evidently born with a ceiling of magic - of course, PCs and NPC recruits aren't going to have this ceiling because players wouldn't find it "fun".

Also - I didn't say mages could never learn anything - but I think it's sloppy writing to present young mages with vast amounts of knowledge beyond magic. And I think it would be younger mages that would be more prone to revolting - and certainly more prone to be on the front lines of the revolution.

A revolution is going to be a demon barbeque fiesta. Look at what happens in Warden's Peak. Avernus weakens the veil and the demon starts cracking up and decides to make quick work of both the Wardens and the invading army. Mages everywhere are going to be tearing the veil - and getting themselves and everyone around them unintentionally devoured by demons.

Again - trying to prove you're innocent and worthy of being treated like everyone else - is not best served by opening 'portals' to the veil and getting everyone devoured by demons.

====

Lastly - the Wardens.

The "best of the best" are often recruited for the Wardens. This leaves the mages undermanned in many areas because the Wardens cannot get into political battles. Warden mages who aren't weak kneed traitors like Anders will not be participating on behalf of the Circles. And I would think the Wardens would actually be forced to put down any group that harbors a traitor Warden.

Doubly so when the reality that the mages will no longer be able to be conscripted as Wardens. The dissolving of the Circles and the rebellion will make the mages out of touch by the Wardens. There is nothing physically stopping them of course, but rebels aren't going to become Grey Wardens - and the nations of Thedas are going to block Wardens from even trying to find them. And when all mages get accused of what the Resolutionists are doing - even Grey Warden mages will be in danger.

This leaves the ranks of the Wardens woefully bereft of new mage recruits - and magic is one of the best weapons against the Darkspawn we're told.

I could even see the Wardens secretly working to put down this rebellion in the name of putting mages back into their ranks.

You seem to be assuming that I support the viability of a mage rebellion when I did not say or even imply that.  I would not venture to guess how the gray wardens would react in a mage-templar war; anything you say is conjecture and speculation. 

I did state that your assumptions that mages are socially inept bc/ of some of your experiences with PhD and others with "specialized knowledge" is not only unsupported by the game or lore, but also is contradicted.

You may consider it "sloppy writing" to present a young mage w/ lots of knowledge beyond magic and you are free to hold that opinion, but it is just that, your opinion and not applicable to the world of Thedas.  The creators of the Dragon Age world do not agree with you and neither do I; it strikes me as logical that any ruling order would want to indocrinate mages w/ religious teaching and the accepted philosophic norms as a means of control in that they would have more people such as yourself who would be an Aequatarian.

And it is telling you see Anders as a "week kneed traitor".  Anders is week kneed?  Really?  Perhaps you should reload a save and see The Final Straw again and observe how he accepts responsibility and whatever punishment Hawke deems fit.  And what exactly makes him a "traitor warden"?  How is he a traitor whereas a hypothethical you as a cricle mage would turn against the circle mages in a rebellion scenario?  Does "traitor" mean "fight for people/do things I find disreputable"?  Is it possible for you to be objective about mages?

If mages were as hated as you claim, as socially inept as you claim, as ignorant in worldly affairs as you claim, and have been stripped of their best as you claim, then wouldn't their rebellion have died in stillbirth? 

Modifié par Joy Divison, 19 avril 2011 - 05:34 .