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[Emergent System]

I'm not even kidding. I tried to make a list of mages that I encountered during the story which weren't either completely psychopathic or so stupid that they may as well have been psychopaths because the consequences of their stupid, stupid actions lead to the same outcome.

Here's the list I came up with:
 - Hawke, if a mage, or Hawke's sister otherwise.
 - That one mage girl that Anders went all JUSTICE on and almost killed before I stopped him.
 - The half-dalish mage specialized in dreams or something, which I sent off to Tevinter.
 - That stupid, drunk apostate who just wanted to get laid.

That's all I could think of. Every single other mage in the entire game is either completely and utterly insane (that's most of the blood mages) or so incredibly stupid that they do completely and utterly insane things in deeply misguided attempts at accomplishing something dicrectly opposite of what their actions ended up doing.

Examples -

Merril: She is an extremely delusional, a-social blood mage who spends the whole story trying to bring a demon into this world, leading to the death of AT LEAST her elder, though in my case it lead to the destruction of her entire village because I'm not taking responsability for her stupidity. The irony being that her goal was to help her clan. Sadly for her, and her entire clan, she was far, far, far, far, faaaarrr too stupid, stupid, stupid to listen to anyone when they told her how stupid and stupid she was. Man, she sure is stupid. And stupid.

The best part was that the first thing she did when I went into the fade to save the dreaming mage's life was BETRAY ME BECAUSE A DEMON TOLD HER TO, but SHE STILL THINKS SHE KNOWS WHAT SHE'S DOING. She falls square in the [so stupid it's a terrible shame I wasn't allowed to drectly kill her myself the first time I met her]-box. A perfect example of why the templars should exist.

Anders: He is a maleficar in complete denial about the truth when it comes to himself. He constantly whines and ****es about how evil the templars are, but is perfectly happy to murder them even if the templars show no hostile intent, indeed he's happy to kill even templars who actively oppose Meredith and do everything they can to protect innocent mages. If somehow that didn't set off alarm bells everywhere in Hawke's head then what would? He loses control over the demon possessing him all the time, and if Hawke wasn't there to stop him he'd probably have been out there killing random people by act 3.

He gets pissed at every single display of common sense. When doing the mission where some templar calls me to help him peacefully apprehend a bunch of apostates in a cave he really managed to irritate me. I accept the mission, go in there, first thing I see is one of the stupid apostates attacking me on-sight (despite how I am very obviously a mage and not a templar at all), giving me a nice display of necromancy. Then I get deeper into the cave and I find the gathering of retards engaged in a ritual of blood magic. The idiots attack me, I kill them, and then the ones that didn't attack (being INCREDIBLY STUPID, and apparently having no moral compass what-so-ever) verbally assault me for daring to defend myself. Then they ask me to kill for them the templar that wants to help them, as if I needed more reasons to hate them.

But, because my Hawke wasn't an insane mass-murderer, unlike ALMOST EVERY SINGLE OTHER MAGE IN THE STORY, I decided to tell them to turn themselves in. And for that, Anders granted me rivalry. What. The. ****. RIVALRY? I saved their lives, I handed them over, and I killed the crazy templar guy who wanted them dead just for being mages, and he DISAPPROVES? The apostates in that situation had shown that they were obviously incapable of going more than a few days without turning to blood magic, necromancy, demon-summoning, and rampant, indiscriminate murder, and HE WANTS ME TO LET THEM GO FREE?? I was facepalming so hard at this point that I almost stopped playing the game.

Then he does a bunch of other stuff, but of course his crowning moment of cognitive dissonance is when he does the equivalent of terror-bombing a church filled with innocent people to start a war. Why did he do this? Because, like, the templars are all evil, and stuff, so that makes it okay. And the best part? THE BEST PART? I actually sided with the mages because the templars are obviously way out of control, but THE BEST PART? While we were fighting our way through the city streets, Aveline (who freaking' went against her own ideals to help him) tells him that he should expect to be prosecuted for his MASS-MURDER, to which he responds with something idiotic like "I am aware of your dedication to oppression".

That was the best part. Even after killing who knows how many innocent peopel to start a war, he still thought that it would be wrong for him to be considered a criminal. If it were possible to do so within the game, I would've happily executed him right then and there.

First Enchanter Orsino: This guy. I mean... this guy? What this guy did doesn't even make any sense. He seems like a reasonable guy for all of the story, then, during the final battle, while we're fighting off the templars, and everything is going fine, OUT OF NOWHERE he just goes "eh, btw, i wuz friend with that crazy serial killer guy who killed ur mom, im gunna turn mahself into an abomination now". I was struck dumb with the shocking stupidity of this. We were winning, and he just does it... for no reason... then, instead of having to just fight the templars, I get to FIRST fight him and his blood-spawn, and THEN fighting the templars as well. How exactly did he imagine turning himself into an abomination and attacking HIS OWN ALLIES would help? Nobody knows. 



I could go on, but what would be the point. I went through the entire story thinking that the mages should be freed (in mah imported save they're free in Ferelden), but if I play through it again I'm gonna support Meredith despite her being just as crazy as the mages are. Man. These mages. They're all utterly insane. It's not like they're "oh hey, I'm gonna die right now unless I use blood magic", no it's just "man them templars sure are oppressing me hard, I'm gonna use blood magic and summon up abominations and go on a murder spree just to prove them right".

/rant over

[hawkmoondirge]

As the man in the hanged man said "There's something in the water"

[Emergent System]

I also liked the part in act 3 where I'm helping the mages but the still do their best to kill me during the better part of an entire mission chain. Talking? Who cares about talking? Let's just KILL EVERYONE WE SEE ON SIGHT BECAUSE WE ARE MAGES.

Man.

[Rifneno]

They handled an aspect of the story very poorly.  The fact is, Kirkwall is basically a portal to Hell.  The Tevinters thined the veil to the point where demons can corrupt even non-mages in some parts of it.  Mages themselves, well, it's pretty much just a matter of when they'll break, not if.  Even Bethany would probably be summoning demons if she spent 40 years there.   In the Brecilian Forest demons are possessing frickin' trees, and the veil is even worse in Kirkwall.  Than anywhere, really.

But they decided to hide this fact in some obscure codex entries.  It's fairly ridiculous that the Circle in Kirkwall never notices they're basically in the house from Poltergeist, but apparently that's how it is.  =/

Edit:  Me no word so good.

Modifié par Rifneno, 17 avril 2011 - 11:06 .

[General User]

There's Keeper Marethari.

And that one chap who escaped from Starkhaven and surrendered to Thrask.

Also the bloke who gave you your father's old letters for Carver (Tobrius? I wanna say)

They seemed decent enough.


Also, as far as we know anyway, the Tevinter mage who went to acquire the Tome of Koslun.  She was just doing her duty and serving her country, both honorable acts.  Though... based on what we know about Tevinters, even money says she was a cruel autocrat, but we never saw it.

And Sketch, sure he's a little shady, but hey, who isn't in Krikwall?

And Saarebas, messed up in the head?  Sure.  Psychopathic idiot?  Not really, I'd call him 'pitiful fool.'  But I'm splitting hairs, I know.

Modifié par General User, 17 avril 2011 - 11:20 .

[LobselVith8]

Emergent System wrote...

I could go on, but what would be the point. I went through the entire story thinking that the mages should be freed (in mah imported save they're free in Ferelden), but if I play through it again I'm gonna support Meredith despite her being just as crazy as the mages are. Man. These mages. They're all utterly insane. It's not like they're "oh hey, I'm gonna die right now unless I use blood magic", no it's just "man them templars sure are oppressing me hard, I'm gonna use blood magic and summon up abominations and go on a murder spree just to prove them right".

/rant over

Not all mages are insane. Hawke as the protagonist never really encounters the mages living in the Gallows, and the mages he does encounter are usually apostates and maleficarum who are outside the Gallows. It's like if we said we're going to judge all the dwarves in Kirkwall based on the carta members we fought. It's not an accurate depiction of the mages who we never actually meet, and the only one who does is Bethany when she's taken to the Circle of Kirkwall.

Besides Bethany, Idunna and Gascard DuPuis can both be reformed because of Hawke's actions. Alain wasn't evil, he was a rape victim who followed Ser Thrask in trying to change the Circle. Anders' friend Karl wasn't evil, he was illegally made tranquil against his will. Terrie was a mage from Starkhaven who only wanted to live her life. Malcolm Hawke's friend Tobrius seemed like a good man. The young mage Ella only wanted to see her mother when she was threatened with tranquility and rape by Ser Alrik. The Orlesian noble Emile de Launcet was very socially inept, but not a villain. And the merchant Magus Tavarin Hall was a mage who wasn't insane or trying to kill Hawke.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 17 avril 2011 - 11:07 .

[LobselVith8]

Emergent System wrote...

Merril: She is an extremely delusional, a-social blood mage who spends the whole story trying to bring a demon into this world, leading to the death of AT LEAST her elder, though in my case it lead to the destruction of her entire village because I'm not taking responsability for her stupidity.

Merrill isn't trying to bring the demon Audacity into this world, she's trying to restore the Eluvian, and Marethari got herself killed when she let a demon into her body.

Emergent System wrote...

The irony being that her goal was to help her clan. Sadly for her, and her entire clan, she was far, far, far, far, faaaarrr too stupid, stupid, stupid to listen to anyone when they told her how stupid and stupid she was. Man, she sure is stupid. And stupid.

You disagreeing with her actions doesn't make her stupid, especially when Hawke is ignorant of Dalish lore and doesn't have the information that Merrill does.

Emergent System wrote...

The best part was that the first thing she did when I went into the fade to save the dreaming mage's life was BETRAY ME BECAUSE A DEMON TOLD HER TO, but SHE STILL THINKS SHE KNOWS WHAT SHE'S DOING. She falls square in the [so stupid it's a terrible shame I wasn't allowed to drectly kill her myself the first time I met her]-box. A perfect example of why the templars should exist.

Everyone betrays you in Feynriel's dream. The characters are all railroaded by the plot.

Emergent System wrote...

Anders: He is a maleficar in complete denial about the truth when it comes to himself. He constantly whines and ****es about how evil the templars are, but is perfectly happy to murder them even if the templars show no hostile intent, indeed he's happy to kill even templars who actively oppose Meredith and do everything they can to protect innocent mages. If somehow that didn't set off alarm bells everywhere in Hawke's head then what would? He loses control over the demon possessing him all the time, and if Hawke wasn't there to stop him he'd probably have been out there killing random people by act 3.

Seeing your first love turned tranquil by templars (despite it being illegal to forcibly turn a Harrowed mage tranquil) and having to kill him because he begged for death is going to make anyone sour on the issue of templars. Karl was Anders' first love, so it's not a surprise to me that he has resentment against the order responsible for what happened to him.

Emergent System wrote...

He gets pissed at every single display of common sense. When doing the mission where some templar calls me to help him peacefully apprehend a bunch of apostates in a cave he really managed to irritate me. I accept the mission, go in there, first thing I see is one of the stupid apostates attacking me on-sight (despite how I am very obviously a mage and not a templar at all), giving me a nice display of necromancy. Then I get deeper into the cave and I find the gathering of retards engaged in a ritual of blood magic. The idiots attack me, I kill them, and then the ones that didn't attack (being INCREDIBLY STUPID, and apparently having no moral compass what-so-ever) verbally assault me for daring to defend myself. Then they ask me to kill for them the templar that wants to help them, as if I needed more reasons to hate them.

Anders points out the stupidity of Decimus and his companions attacking Hawke as well.

Emergent System wrote...

But, because my Hawke wasn't an insane mass-murderer, unlike ALMOST EVERY SINGLE OTHER MAGE IN THE STORY, I decided to tell them to turn themselves in. And for that, Anders granted me rivalry. What. The. ****. RIVALRY? I saved their lives, I handed them over, and I killed the crazy templar guy who wanted them dead just for being mages, and he DISAPPROVES?

Anders doesn't like the Circle of Magi, and Alain for one gets raped by a templar when he's sent to the Gallows, so I don't know why you're surprised. You're sending these mages to the same place where a Harrowed mage, and allegedly other mages, were illegally being made tranquil.

Emergent System wrote...

The apostates in that situation had shown that they were obviously incapable of going more than a few days without turning to blood magic, necromancy, demon-summoning, and rampant, indiscriminate murder, and HE WANTS ME TO LET THEM GO FREE?? I was facepalming so hard at this point that I almost stopped playing the game.

The actions of a few mages don't constitute all of them. Terrie never uses blood magic and manages to live a normal life outside of the Circle.

Emergent System wrote...

While we were fighting our way through the city streets, Aveline (who freaking' went against her own ideals to help him) tells him that he should expect to be prosecuted for his MASS-MURDER, to which he responds with something idiotic like "I am aware of your dedication to oppression".

Anders also accepts what Aveline is saying under the premise of all people being treated equally, which he wants to see.

Emergent System wrote...

First Enchanter Orsino: This guy. I mean... this guy? What this guy did doesn't even make any sense.

I completely agree, but clearly the developers weren't satisified with recycling enviornments and enemies until they recycled the nemesis from GoA.

[Foolsfolly]

Yeah....you can almost see why the Circles and Templar exist now right?

[AlexXIV]

It's because David mind-controlled all the mages. What you didn't know David Gaider is a bloodmage? Well he is.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 17 avril 2011 - 11:23 .

[Rifneno]

Foolsfolly wrote...

Yeah....you can almost see why the Circles and Templar exist now right?

Almost, yes.  It was a good idea in concept.  In practice, it clearly isn't working well.

[Foolsfolly]

It's definitely not working in Kirkwall. The First Enchanter and Knight-Commander look like they have the same amount of power, but Meredith's taken far more power than she's supposed to. As such the Templars are out of control.

But I liked the mad mages in this game. In the first game the Circles felt like just another group of oppressed people just to be oppressed, like the Alienage elves or the casteless dwarves. In this game they wanted to show that there is a reason why the Circles exists.

Not much of a reason for the oppression of elves other than fantasy racism.

[Beerfish]

None of it is the mages fault, the original poster by now should know that every bad act by a mage is caused because of the chantry or the templars. At least that is the arguement of a number of totally delusional people on this forum.

[Plaintiff]

I'm gonna nitpick over the use of the word 'psychopath'. It's a disorder characterized by a lack of empathy. Mages have empathy in spades.

Merrill was trying to help her people and not once did she willingly harm anyone except when attacked. Her actions were questionable, but as she herself says, at no point did she ask for anyone else to interfere. If there was a price to pay, she was to pay it, and she brought Hawke along on the Pride Demon visit specifically so he could kill her if things went wrong. She's not actually stupid, she's fully aware of the risks involved.

Anders isn't a maleficar: that term refers specifcaly to blood mages. And he is trying to free his fellow mages, of course he's going to give you Rivalry points for sending them to the Circle, because his entire goal in life is to break them out of it. Nevermind the fact that Danarius was the only one actually using blood magic. At that point, you have no evidence that Grace or the others are anything but innocent. And even if they are blood mages, blood magic is not inherently evil. The fact that they turn on you later is beside the point, Anders can't possibly know that they're going to do that.

As for the bombing of the "chantry", well, I wouldn't class the priestesses as "innocent". The Chantry is a symbol of oppression for mages, it had to go eventually, and the fact is that Elthina's idea of "compromise" was to allow the abuse of mages to continue without actually doing anything about it. The Chantry actually can't co-exist with his ideals, at least, not without being stripped of a substantial amount of its power, which it would never relinquish willingly. In my view, Anders isn't a criminal, as far as I'm concerned the Chantry is a throbbing cancer on Thedas, and there should've been a 'brofist' option on the dialogue wheel.

And of course, there's the fact that he's possessed by Justice. No, this doesn't make him insane, and I personally don't consider him an abomination (though others do). He shows none of the typical hallmarks of an abomination. But he has a whole other sentient being inside of him, and that entity has very little idea of how the world really works. Justice is so named, not because he embodies Justice, but because he tries to emulate it. And he's getting it wrong. Remember in Awakening, how he thought Ser Pounce-A-Lot was a slave? Yeah, his idea of "justice" is clearly different from our own.

I could go on, but the point can be pretty neatly summed up thusly: Psychopaths are characterized by an abnormal lack of empathy. If mages were psychopaths, they wouldn't be prey to demons in the first place, because it's negative emotions like fear and hatred that draw demons in the first place. A lot of blame can be laid directly at the feet of the Templars, for creating a hostile environment that would breed the sort of distress and weakness that demons are drawn to.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Beerfish wrote...

None of it is the mages fault, the original poster by now should know that every bad act by a mage is caused because of the chantry or the templars. At least that is the arguement of a number of totally delusional people on this forum.

Mages are still responsible for their own decisions. Every murderous blood mage is guilty of their own crimes. If they are incapable of controlling themselves, then they are too dangerous to be freed anyway.

[wulfsturm]

Bethany is psychopathic? She seemed pretty normal to me...

[Rifneno]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Beerfish wrote...

None of it is the mages fault, the original poster by now should know that every bad act by a mage is caused because of the chantry or the templars. At least that is the arguement of a number of totally delusional people on this forum.

Mages are still responsible for their own decisions. Every murderous blood mage is guilty of their own crimes. If they are incapable of controlling themselves, then they are too dangerous to be freed anyway.

Considering Kirkwall's veil, I don't really blame them for losing it.  Most people would go nuts in their position.  Not saying they shouldn't be killed.  It's like putting down a rabid dog.  He needs to die, but it's not his fault he's sick.

Although it should be noted, people who think opposing opinions is a sign of mental illness don't really deserve the time.

[Fruit of the Doom]

    
   

[TEWR]

Merril: She is an extremely delusional, a-social blood mage who spends the whole story trying to bring a demon into this world, leading to the death of AT LEAST her elder, though in my case it lead to the destruction of her entire village because I'm not taking responsability for her stupidity. The irony being that her goal was to help her clan. Sadly for her, and her entire clan, she was far, far, far, far, faaaarrr too stupid, stupid, stupid to listen to anyone when they told her how stupid and stupid she was. Man, she sure is stupid. And stupid.

I'm starting to get a little pissed at how everyone labels Merrill as stupid when their reasons for it are what's stupid. Like in your post. "She's stupid because she's stupid". Isn't that a case of circular logic or something? Looks like I'm gonna have to give a whole entire walkthrough of who Merrill is. Again. For about the 50th time.

Merrill was not, I repeat not, trying to bring Audacity into Thedas. She was trying to rebuild an Eluvian from a shard of the original. The only way to purify it was through the use of blood magic, as normal magic wasn't strong enough. The only way for her to appropriately learn how to use Blood Magic (ironically the safest way) was from the trapped demon Audacity. If she went to Kirkwall and tried to learn blood magic, that would be a little fishy don't you think?

Marethari spread pointless fears to the clan of how Merrill would bring back the taint. From a cleansed mirror. This fear is what caused Pol's death, indirectly. And you think Marethari was acting in the best interest of the clan, when she was spreading these fears so that Merrill would return home? To a clan that was now afraid she would bring back the taint? Who seems to be the idiot here? Is it really Merrill?

Also look at how Merrill is smart enough to realize that there is no separation of Fade beings. They are all spirits and are all dangerous.

Jump forward to the Act 3 quest. She asks Hawke to tag along because she doesn't know what will happen. She doesn't know if she could end up becoming an Abomination or not. The demon is still trapped, but she doesn't want to take any chances. And she's stupid for exercising caution? Then as soon as she finds the statue the demon is trapped in, Marethari stumbles in and says she made herself the Demon's prison.

Marethari then says that the demon knew Merrill would succeed and would've used the Eluvian to enter the mortal world. But we already know this is impossible to happen as Morrigan said the Eluvian links to a place beyond the Fade and the Mortal world. And Morrigan did extensive research on the Eluvian. So Marethari thought she knew more than Merrill. But Merrill not only researched elven lore regarding the Eluvian, but managed to rebuild it to almost perfect working condition and would've succeeded.

Also, I'd like to point out that she's only nervous because she is now away from her clan, who made her a pariah because they didn't agree with her due to ignorance. She is in a human city, and it is perfectly understandable for her to not know what to do or how to act.


A note to Lobselvith8: Are you getting tired of explaining how Merrill is actually intelligent and whatnot? I sure am

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 18 avril 2011 - 01:49 .

[Saephy]

If you`re going to take the encountered templars as a representative for all templars the same way you do for mages, they aren`t coming out of it looking too good either though, just saying.

Here`s the list over Templars that are reasonable, do let me know if I´ve missed any:

- Ser Thrask
- Keran
- Knight Captain Cullen (to a certain extent, mainly due to his evolvement spanning the three acts)
- Carver

Example of "Psychopathic" Templars:

Meredith, don`t really need to elaborate do I? 
Although it´s the idol drives her nuts, the game makes no secret of her being fairly ruthless and "extreme" all on her own.

Ser Alrik, tell me the guy isn`t a creep.
He can`t even blame lyrium idols or demons, he`s just "naturally" cruel - the way nature made him. Yay humans!

Ser Karras, he is again a fine example of "natural" human cruelty that feels empowered and derives pleasure from using said power to subdue and abuse others.
Even if he all the while can claim he is only following Merediths orders, he does seem to be deriving  a great deal of satisfaction from following those orders.

There are implications that there are other templars who aren`t complete douches, the same way it is implied there are mages that aren`t bat****.

Modifié par Saephy, 18 avril 2011 - 01:51 .

[lazuli]

Emergent System, we share the same frustrations over mages in this game. It's as if Bioware knows the templars aren't going to be sympathetic to players because (wait for it) magic is awesome. To make up for this, they give us the most one-sided representations of mages imaginable. Let's blame it on the unreliable narrator. Varric hates mages, right? No? Then whom do we blame?

[lockdown51]

I love the epic rant.

Even considering the thinning of the veil, it still does not excuse someone for being stupid. The sheer amount of stupid that was spread throughout the game in making everyone and their cat a bloodmage didn't help since the two issues seem to go hand in hand. Orsino is the perfect example seeing as his insta bloodmage turn made no sense at all.

Lastly, all the mages in Kirkwall are just too stupid to live. There is no way to argue this once I present my findings. Proof can be found in the ingame cinematic where the templar storm the Gallows. The templar have to be funneled through a SINGLE OPENING! The ever so smart mages WAIT until the templar are in MELEE range, WATCH the templar cut down 3 mages, and ONLY THEN start hurling spells.

Now even my kid sister, who does not play military games, knows that your best shot of survival would have been to spam spells at the choke point. Discounting everything else, this alone proves that the mages in Kirkwall are too stupid to be allowed outside without supervision.

[TEWR]

Orsino had been a blood mage for a while. You don't just turn into Harvestino without knowing what to do.

I do agree though that it was stupid for mages to be like "Oh the Templars are coming to annul me? Ok that's cool I'll just chill here.... oh **** they're 3 steps away! Fireba-----"

dead.

[Ryzaki]

lockdown51 wrote...

I love the epic rant.

Even considering the thinning of the veil, it still does not excuse someone for being stupid. The sheer amount of stupid that was spread throughout the game in making everyone and their cat a bloodmage didn't help since the two issues seem to go hand in hand. Orsino is the perfect example seeing as his insta bloodmage turn made no sense at all.

Lastly, all the mages in Kirkwall are just too stupid to live. There is no way to argue this once I present my findings. Proof can be found in the ingame cinematic where the templar storm the Gallows. The templar have to be funneled through a SINGLE OPENING! The ever so smart mages WAIT until the templar are in MELEE range, WATCH the templar cut down 3 mages, and ONLY THEN start hurling spells.

Now even my kid sister, who does not play military games, knows that your best shot of survival would have been to spam spells at the choke point. Discounting everything else, this alone proves that the mages in Kirkwall are too stupid to be allowed outside without supervision.

 

Very good point. 

[NoUserNameHere]

Kirkwall was built on a portal to Hell. Also, a satanic cult built a citywide transmutation circle to drive people mad.

That's the plot justification for it. Everything else is third act stupidity.

[Cutlass Jack]

NoUserNameHere wrote...

Kirkwall was built on a portal to Hell. Also, a satanic cult built a citywide transmutation circle to drive people mad. 

I think you're confusing Kirkwall with Sunnydale...