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[ImoenBaby]

lockdown51 wrote...

I love the epic rant.

Even considering the thinning of the veil, it still does not excuse someone for being stupid. The sheer amount of stupid that was spread throughout the game in making everyone and their cat a bloodmage didn't help since the two issues seem to go hand in hand. Orsino is the perfect example seeing as his insta bloodmage turn made no sense at all.

Lastly, all the mages in Kirkwall are just too stupid to live. There is no way to argue this once I present my findings. Proof can be found in the ingame cinematic where the templar storm the Gallows. The templar have to be funneled through a SINGLE OPENING! The ever so smart mages WAIT until the templar are in MELEE range, WATCH the templar cut down 3 mages, and ONLY THEN start hurling spells.

Now even my kid sister, who does not play military games, knows that your best shot of survival would have been to spam spells at the choke point. Discounting everything else, this alone proves that the mages in Kirkwall are too stupid to be allowed outside without supervision.

You know, I was gonna quit reading at "there is no way to argue this". Hahaha. So glad I overrode my troll alarm.

[Emergent System]

I may have overreacted a little, since I just finished the game and the irritation was unmoderated by time, but I still think that any story that frustrated me this much deserves some critisicm.

I just wanna respond to one thing -

You disagreeing with her actions doesn't make her stupid, especially when Hawke is ignorant of Dalish lore and doesn't have the information that Merrill does.

Everyone betrays you in Feynriel's dream. The characters are all railroaded by the plot.

I call her stupid because she keeps telling everyone that she's a blood mage but it's fine because she knows what she's doing, then she demonstrates that she has absolutely no clue at all what she's doing when she instantly gives in to the demon in the dream. I know everyone betrays (except Anders), but it still stands as a pretty damning demonstration of how she obviously didn't have what it takes to resist demons, but she continues to believe that she does, which makes her an idiot.

Modifié par Emergent System, 18 avril 2011 - 04:39 .

[aaniadyen]

Emergent System wrote...

I may have overreacted a little, since I just finished the game and the irritation was unmoderated by time, but I still think that any story that frustrated me this much deserves some critisicm.

I just wanna respond to one thing -

You disagreeing with her actions doesn't make her stupid, especially when Hawke is ignorant of Dalish lore and doesn't have the information that Merrill does.

Everyone betrays you in Feynriel's dream. The characters are all railroaded by the plot.

I call her stupid because she keeps telling everyone that she's a blood mage but it's fine because she knows what she's doing, then she demonstrates that she has absolutely no clue at all what she's doing when she instantly gives in to the demon in the dream. I know everyone betrays (except Anders), but it still stands as a pretty damning demonstration of how she obviously didn't have what it takes to resist demons, but she continues to believe that she does, which makes her an idiot.

To be fair, you're right. She's just protected by plot armor. I expect she'd have been picked up by templars first week in Kirkwall, especially considering he's so oblivious to how life in cities works. She'd probably have let it slip very quickly...that or one of your party members would have just told.

As for your main point, yeah. I agree. Out of the entire game there are a handful of named npc mages who aren't blood mages. It makes you think the templars were right all along.

Modifié par aaniadyen, 18 avril 2011 - 05:03 .

[Sabariel]

Alain wasn't psychotic... and he was kind of cute too

Also, Anders is not a maleficar. He's an Abomination

I like that emoticon, don't I?

Modifié par Sabariel, 18 avril 2011 - 05:08 .

[Fruit of the Doom]

I thought Alain was a bit too passive and spineless... like they had neutered him or something.

[aaniadyen]

Sabariel wrote...

Also, Anders is not a maleficar. He's an Abomination

And yet he still blows up the chantry, doesn't he? ><

[Sabariel]

Fruit of the Doom wrote...

I thought Alain was a bit too passive and spineless... like they had neutered him or something.

That doesn't stop him from being cute... at least it doesn't in my books. He's like... a kitten... a passive kitten.

[Sabariel]

aaniadyen wrote...

Sabariel wrote...

Also, Anders is not a maleficar. He's an Abomination

And yet he still blows up the chantry, doesn't he? ><

Yeah...? And? Just pointing out that good ol' Anders is not a maleficar is all because the OP called him a maleficar which I think he is not because he is an Abomination unless Abominations get lumped into the maleficar category too? I've.... had too much caffeine, I think.

[aaniadyen]

Sabariel wrote...

aaniadyen wrote...

Sabariel wrote...

Also, Anders is not a maleficar. He's an Abomination

And yet he still blows up the chantry, doesn't he? ><

Yeah...? And? Just pointing out that good ol' Anders is not a maleficar is all because the OP called him a maleficar which I think he is not because he is an Abomination unless Abominations get lumped into the maleficar category too? I've.... had too much caffeine, I think.

To be honest i wouldn't call him an abomination, either. Abomination implies a demon's forcefully posessed you, while Anders let a spirit (good demon) share his consciousness. I guess you could say he's an abomination, I mean...probably the same exact thing only with a spirit, and Justice in DA 2 does seem a ****load like a demon. I always was curious when that happened. In Awakening justice was awesome and didn't have two ****s to rub together about mages, here he's just kind of a ******.

[Sabariel]

aaniadyen wrote...

Sabariel wrote...

aaniadyen wrote...

Sabariel wrote...

Also, Anders is not a maleficar. He's an Abomination

And yet he still blows up the chantry, doesn't he? ><

Yeah...? And? Just pointing out that good ol' Anders is not a maleficar is all because the OP called him a maleficar which I think he is not because he is an Abomination unless Abominations get lumped into the maleficar category too? I've.... had too much caffeine, I think.

To be honest i wouldn't call him an abomination, either. Abomination implies a demon's forcefully posessed you, while Anders let a spirit (good demon) share his consciousness. I guess you could say he's an abomination, I mean...probably the same exact thing only with a spirit, and Justice in DA 2 does seem a ****load like a demon. I always was curious when that happened. In Awakening justice was awesome and didn't have two ****s to rub together about mages, here he's just kind of a ******.

Codex says that an Abomination is a mage possessed by a demon. Anders is a mage. Justice is now a Vengeance demon. I would say he is an Abomination (should that be capitalized? Probably not... oh well!)

[aaniadyen]

Sabariel wrote...

aaniadyen wrote...

Sabariel wrote...

aaniadyen wrote...

Sabariel wrote...

Also, Anders is not a maleficar. He's an Abomination

And yet he still blows up the chantry, doesn't he? ><

Yeah...? And? Just pointing out that good ol' Anders is not a maleficar is all because the OP called him a maleficar which I think he is not because he is an Abomination unless Abominations get lumped into the maleficar category too? I've.... had too much caffeine, I think.

To be honest i wouldn't call him an abomination, either. Abomination implies a demon's forcefully posessed you, while Anders let a spirit (good demon) share his consciousness. I guess you could say he's an abomination, I mean...probably the same exact thing only with a spirit, and Justice in DA 2 does seem a ****load like a demon. I always was curious when that happened. In Awakening justice was awesome and didn't have two ****s to rub together about mages, here he's just kind of a ******.

Codex says that an Abomination is a mage possessed by a demon. Anders is a mage. Justice is now a Vengeance demon. I would say he is an Abomination (should that be capitalized? Probably not... oh well!)

See, I'd agree with you...but vengence isn't a demon. Just...*Looks it up on the wiki* ...Oh, would you look at that, the writers pulled some stupid plot twist out of their ass isn't that lovely. Ok, he's an abomination. I don't understand how he could go from benevolent spirit to "Ohmaigawd awl tha tempars must be keeld!" in a year's time, but who knows? Maybe spirits really are that unstable... *eye roll*

Modifié par aaniadyen, 18 avril 2011 - 05:27 .

[stobie]

That might be (it's not, but let's say it is) - I've been trying to force myself to Go Templar, just for the sake of seeing both sides. If you do anything but kill Kerras, for instance, you're sending people to a sexual predator. (blunt, but sadly, accurate) Now, that's an exception (he, & Alrik) - except for one detail. There's a Tranquil mage wandering around The Gallows, quite openly explaining that she now 'belongs to Alrik,' despite having been in love with someone else before. The problem comes not from a few random monster-templars, but from the obvious, 'Come on - NO one knows about these things? Really?' While Cullen seems innocent to the point of naive there, it's a bit hard to side with them when by clicking on a few people there, you get quite enough of the grim story.

Cullen says mages are manipulating sympathy. Ok, great. I'd love to see evidence that this was a lie, that Grace made it up, etc. Blood magic is mean, fine. But these creepy guys sneaking into a boy's chambers are just - completely unsympathetic. Are we to believe the Grand Cleric never heard a whisper of all this? Is this justified because Meredith is scared of mages? (I'm scared of rogue assassins, personally, but I wouldn't send them off to a chronic abuser!)

That's my problem. I try to side with them - and find some poor kid talking about a heinous violation, with NO reason to think it's a lie. Alrik, I took to be the same idea as the Necro-mage who dismembers your mum - and Orsino is implicated in that near the end. (how much he knows, I never grasped, but let's say, 'a lot.') I did end up thinking they're all awful, granted, but it's the creep factor that has me stopped.

Mages are crazy - fine. But what I'm seeing from the Kerras & Gallows chatter is worse. I'll take crazy.


Oh, & about the 'stupid' claim:  I just saved Cullen with myself as a mage, and Anders, and Merrill.  We did not use swords or punch people.  Fireballs were crossing over lightning, with frost all over the place.  He then says that mages aren't like 'you and me.'   So...  if he can get away with stupid, I'm thinking mages aren't really all that obtuse.

Modifié par stobie, 18 avril 2011 - 05:33 .

[Sabariel]

aaniadyen wrote...

Sabariel wrote...

aaniadyen wrote...

Sabariel wrote...

aaniadyen wrote...

Sabariel wrote...

Also, Anders is not a maleficar. He's an Abomination

And yet he still blows up the chantry, doesn't he? ><

Yeah...? And? Just pointing out that good ol' Anders is not a maleficar is all because the OP called him a maleficar which I think he is not because he is an Abomination unless Abominations get lumped into the maleficar category too? I've.... had too much caffeine, I think.

To be honest i wouldn't call him an abomination, either. Abomination implies a demon's forcefully posessed you, while Anders let a spirit (good demon) share his consciousness. I guess you could say he's an abomination, I mean...probably the same exact thing only with a spirit, and Justice in DA 2 does seem a ****load like a demon. I always was curious when that happened. In Awakening justice was awesome and didn't have two ****s to rub together about mages, here he's just kind of a ******.

Codex says that an Abomination is a mage possessed by a demon. Anders is a mage. Justice is now a Vengeance demon. I would say he is an Abomination (should that be capitalized? Probably not... oh well!)

See, I'd agree with you...but vengence isn't a demon. Just...*Looks it up on the wiki* ...Oh, would you look at that, the writers pulled some stupid plot twist out of their ass isn't that lovely. Ok, he's an abomination. I don't understand how he could go from benevolent spirit to "Ohmaigawd awl tha tempars must be keeld!" in a year's time, but who knows? Maybe spirits really are that unstable... *eye roll*

Justice does say that spirits can be corrupted by their own wants and desires and turn into demons. I think Justice's time in Kristoff's body already corrupted him a bit, merging with Anders' just pushed him over the edge into "full-demon" territory.... though everyone knows you never go full-demon *shot for bad joke*

[LobselVith8]

Emergent System wrote...

You disagreeing with her actions doesn't make her stupid, especially when Hawke is ignorant of Dalish lore and doesn't have the information that Merrill does.

Everyone betrays you in Feynriel's dream. The characters are all railroaded by the plot.

I call her stupid because she keeps telling everyone that she's a blood mage but it's fine because she knows what she's doing, then she demonstrates that she has absolutely no clue at all what she's doing when she instantly gives in to the demon in the dream.

 
Everyone gives in to the demon in Feynriel's dream. The plot of the quest railroads all of the characters even when it makes absolutely no sense.

Emergent System wrote...

I know everyone betrays (except Anders), but it still stands as a pretty damning demonstration of how she obviously didn't have what it takes to resist demons, but she continues to believe that she does, which makes her an idiot.

Because of one quest where everyone, regardless of where they are in their lives, will betray Hawke not because it makes sense, but because the plot of the quest demands it to be so? Merrill uses blood magic proficiently for several years, she shows she understands how to use magic when she can tell that a Hunger Demon has been possessing a Rock Wraith and whether a templar recruit is possessed or not, and she rebuilds a two thousand year old elven relic from a shard and lore she gathered.

Ergo, she isn't an idiot.

[aaniadyen]

Sabariel wrote...

Justice does say that spirits can be corrupted by their own wants and desires and turn into demons. I think Justice's time in Kristoff's body already corrupted him a bit, merging with Anders' just pushed him over the edge into "full-demon" territory.... though everyone knows you never go full-demon *shot for bad joke*

I suppose that's true...but for someone who showed no signs of any sort of corruption by the end of DA:A I couldn't really see it happening. He was always a really stable and wise voice of reason...

[stobie]

Merrill also seems to know the danger - she also feels she's 'worked on herself' since the Feynriel-demon incident. She seems very aware of the danger, but for reasons I never understood, feels she has to do this to... (ok, I don't get that part)

[LobselVith8]

aaniadyen wrote...

To be fair, you're right. She's just protected by plot armor. I expect she'd have been picked up by templars first week in Kirkwall, especially considering he's so oblivious to how life in cities works. She'd probably have let it slip very quickly...that or one of your party members would have just told.

I don't see Merrill striking up conversation with templars, and I don't see who would have told anyone that Merrill is an apostate when Aveline approves of Hawke lying about the Starkhaven mages and even Fenris tells Sebastian that he won't turn in the apostates of Hawke's group when he brings up the subject.

aaniadyen wrote...

As for your main point, yeah. I agree. Out of the entire game there are a handful of named npc mages who aren't blood mages. It makes you think the templars were right all along.

If we actually got to see what it was like in the Gallows and speak with the myraid of mages and apprentices living in the Gallows, as opposed to the multiple mages we see outside the Gallows, you'd have a point. As it is, we have absolutely no information on what the Circle mages are actually like, except for the two mages we get screentime with: Orsino and Bethany. There's no information to make a basis for who is right or wrong, that's the problem.

[Sabariel]

aaniadyen wrote...

Sabariel wrote...

Justice does say that spirits can be corrupted by their own wants and desires and turn into demons. I think Justice's time in Kristoff's body already corrupted him a bit, merging with Anders' just pushed him over the edge into "full-demon" territory.... though everyone knows you never go full-demon *shot for bad joke*

I suppose that's true...but for someone who showed no signs of any sort of corruption by the end of DA:A I couldn't really see it happening. He was always a really stable and wise voice of reason...

You have a discussion with Justice in DAA in which he admits he's starting to have "wants". I always discourage this behavior, but obviously it doesn't help

[aaniadyen]

LobselVith8 wrote...

aaniadyen wrote...

To be fair, you're right. She's just protected by plot armor. I expect she'd have been picked up by templars first week in Kirkwall, especially considering he's so oblivious to how life in cities works. She'd probably have let it slip very quickly...that or one of your party members would have just told.

I don't see Merrill striking up conversation with templars, and I don't see who would have told anyone that Merrill is an apostate when Aveline approves of Hawke lying about the Starkhaven mages and even Fenris tells Sebastian that he won't turn in the apostates of Hawke's group when he brings up the subject.

Maybe some of those templars who hide ontop of buildings all day waiting for fights to break out so they can drop in and say howdy-do would overhear some of the banter =P

LobselVith8 wrote...
If we actually got to see what it was like in the Gallows and speak with the myraid of mages and apprentices living in the Gallows, as opposed to the multiple mages we see outside the Gallows, you'd have a point. As it is, we have absolutely no information on what the Circle mages are actually like, except for the two mages we get screentime with: Orsino and Bethany. There's no information to make a basis for who is right or wrong, that's the problem.

That is true, although if population of mages is to be looked into statistically you could imagine that if 80-90% of the mages outside the circle are malificarum, it's reasonable to expect there are many inside the gallows as well. Beyond that, you're right.

Modifié par aaniadyen, 18 avril 2011 - 05:53 .

[jussyr]

Keep in mind that your Hawke could be unknowingly walking past a hundred or so apostates a day and never know it unless they turn into a demon/whip out the blood magic. As Champion (or even before that, as someone who generally involves themselves in everyone else's business), you're going to tend to attract, run into, or be sent after the ones who go bad. Take that Act 3 quest Meredith sends you on, to go after the three apostates; two of them turn out crazy, yeah, but who knows how many others just went home, said hi to their families, and then peacefully accompanied the Templars back to the Circle?

[stobie]

I guess I'd have to say mages aren't necessarily brilliant. In Origins, I saved them, but when I, feeling pity, let them help me with the Archdemon... well, it wasn't pretty. When they do the stop-fight to show how well trained they are, they killed themselves before I could get there. In DA2, one of their brilliant tactics seems to be, "put myself in a bubble while my evil allies all die, then pop out once they're dead & I have no protection, so I can die, too." Blood mages seem to rely on whether or not I have arcane-grrr-shield on, and am unable to see their blood-whirl thing.

Qunari mages & their pink balls of instant ouch - they're bad. Not bad enough to sew their lips together & make them gurgle in the most disgusting manner possible, but pretty bad...

So it's balanced, in that way, with Cullen & his 'mages aren't like you & me, lady with the obvious mage staff who just cast a lightning storm over my head.' Maybe the thin veil of Kirkwall has somewhat dulled their senses.

[Greed1914]

I have to wonder something... Was the whole thinning of the veil left to the Codex in order to keep it so both sides were right and wrong? I mean, if Hawke presented evidence showing that Kirkwall's location was to blame, wouldn't that mostly legitimize the mages? Honestly, while it does explain the abundance of blood magic and demons, it might have been better to leave that out because now we're aware of a possible source or at least partial source of the problem, and have nothing that we can do with it.

[Dio Demon]

aaniadyen wrote...

Sabariel wrote...

aaniadyen wrote...

Sabariel wrote...

Also, Anders is not a maleficar. He's an Abomination

And yet he still blows up the chantry, doesn't he? ><

Yeah...? And? Just pointing out that good ol' Anders is not a maleficar is all because the OP called him a maleficar which I think he is not because he is an Abomination unless Abominations get lumped into the maleficar category too? I've.... had too much caffeine, I think.

To be honest i wouldn't call him an abomination, either. Abomination implies a demon's forcefully posessed you, while Anders let a spirit (good demon) share his consciousness. I guess you could say he's an abomination, I mean...probably the same exact thing only with a spirit, and Justice in DA 2 does seem a ****load like a demon. I always was curious when that happened. In Awakening justice was awesome and didn't have two ****s to rub together about mages, here he's just kind of a ******.

Anders was a vessel like Wynne from DA:O but the rage from his own negative experiences from Circle pushed Justice over the edge to vengeance. Remember justice is a form of vengeance there is a fine line between the two but it is easy to go from one to the other, as in this case spirit to demon.

[aaniadyen]

Crazy Eyed One wrote...

aaniadyen wrote...

Sabariel wrote...

aaniadyen wrote...

Sabariel wrote...

Also, Anders is not a maleficar. He's an Abomination

And yet he still blows up the chantry, doesn't he? ><

Yeah...? And? Just pointing out that good ol' Anders is not a maleficar is all because the OP called him a maleficar which I think he is not because he is an Abomination unless Abominations get lumped into the maleficar category too? I've.... had too much caffeine, I think.

To be honest i wouldn't call him an abomination, either. Abomination implies a demon's forcefully posessed you, while Anders let a spirit (good demon) share his consciousness. I guess you could say he's an abomination, I mean...probably the same exact thing only with a spirit, and Justice in DA 2 does seem a ****load like a demon. I always was curious when that happened. In Awakening justice was awesome and didn't have two ****s to rub together about mages, here he's just kind of a ******.

Anders was a vessel like Wynne from DA:O but the rage from his own negative experiences from Circle pushed Justice over the edge to vengeance. Remember justice is a form of vengeance there is a fine line between the two but it is easy to go from one to the other, as in this case spirit to demon.

I suppose that does make it easier to understand. I just couldn't believe it at first because before DA2 there was no such thing as a "Vengeance" demon and Justice never showed any ill-will toward templars before. I guess that's the beauty of off-screening. You can make up pretty much whatever you want. ><

[morbusswg]

Saephy wrote...


Example of "Psychopathic" Templars:

Lets not forget the lying, raping city guards that Avaline always seems to want to "look in to" but never does anything about... they certainly don't help the situation.. oh, and did we ever find out where they were hiding during the Qunari taking over the keep thing? I think I missed it...