129 réponses à ce sujet

[Rifneno]

lobi wrote...

EDIT: Stand at the big steel grid upstairs to the right of the Herbalist in the gallows and listen for a few moments.

I'm almost afraid to ask...  =/

[General User]

Deified Data wrote...

General User wrote...

And that one chap who escaped from Starkhaven and surrendered to Thrask.

You mean Alain, the guy who showed up with Grace again in Act III, when he aided those who kidnapped your sibling?

I'm sorry - being led around by a bunch of blood mages is forgiveable the first time, but when it happened again I saw no reason to show him mercy. He was already using blood magic - judging my his company, he's be an abomination in days.

Or minutes, or hours, or years, or never. 
 
I don’t think anyone would argue that Alain’s a particularly bright lad, especially with regards to the company he keeps.  But when he had to (or was forced to) make a choice, he chose to help, in his own limited capacity. 


I wasn’t looking for a paragon of virtue or a titan of intellect with that one, just a non-psychotic idiot and, to my way of thinking a somewhat dull kid who's had it rough and makes poor decisions because of it fits the bill rather nicely.
 
And, in fairness, Alain isn’t just let go, he’s handed over to the Templars.
 
As for kidnapping C/B, I kinda chalk up that transgression to a level of stupidity that human beings seem only to be capable of in groups.

[ArcticBear]

I found that almost all the mages in the game complied pretty well, especially alain, after i threaten to kill them if they dont do what you say. I do like how in this game if you take the judge dredd approach to everything people generally start doing as they're told.

Also on the veil theme i can surmise that the major character and the person who can stop the mage-templar war in da3 is buffy.

[Ryzaki]

I felt bad for Alain. I probably should start killing him. Just to grant the poor thing some mercy.

[Sabariel]

Ryzaki wrote...

I felt bad for Alain. I probably should start killing him. Just to grant the poor thing some mercy.

Noooo... smoosh his cheeks and tell him everything will be all right >_>;;

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

The problem with the mages? Lack of socialization. Lack of world experience. Of course this will lead to poor choices. This is what happens when you're locked away in a tower for your life or made tranquil. Same with Orsino. Yet Hawke, being an apostate from the beginning and never have been confined in the Circle has enough worldly smarts to know how to make allies, and not be stupid.

Merrill? Very introverted and needs a lot of guidance. Probably the equivalent of a rebellious child in Elven terms. But she did have some good points about the mirror, but lacked the wisdom to understand corruption. Too innocent in the ways of the world.

And settling the dispute between mages and templars? The Chantry? Useless! You've got the equivalent of the Pope in Kirkwall, and she won't do anything? No wonder the situation got out of control.

[Rifneno]

ArcticBear wrote...

Also on the veil theme i can surmise that the major character and the person who can stop the mage-templar war in da3 is buffy.

Why not Xena?  She killed a pantheon in like a day.  And Buffy's set in modern day.

[Rawgrim]

Bethany was ok. Hmm...can`t think of anyone else.

[Wulfram]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

And settling the dispute between mages and templars? The Chantry? Useless! You've got the equivalent of the Pope in Kirkwall, and she won't do anything? No wonder the situation got out of control.

Grand Cleric Elthina is equivalent to an Archbishop, the Divine in Val Royeaux is the Pope equivalent.

[Deified Data]

General User wrote...

Or minutes, or hours, or years, or never. 
 
I don’t think anyone would argue that Alain’s a particularly bright lad, especially with regards to the company he keeps.  But when he had to (or was forced to) make a choice, he chose to help, in his own limited capacity. 

Alain has a disturbing habit of involving himself with homicidal blood mages, and then surrendering once it looks like they've lost. He goes along with their plans until Hawke shows up, and instantly he's the naive victim. I'm sorry, but that's all a bit too convenient for me.

[General User]

Deified Data wrote...
Alain has a disturbing habit of involving himself with homicidal blood mages, and then surrendering once it looks like they've lost.

Which I say puts him head and shoulders above most other Kirkwall-area bloodmages in the intellect department. 

Deified Data wrote...
He goes along with their plans until Hawke shows up, and instantly he's the naive victim. I'm sorry, but that's all a bit too convenient for me.

Damn convenient, but hey, the kid’s had it rough, real rough. That he falls in with some uncouth sorts who promise to change all that without asking too many questions is understandable at the very least, certainly not worth killing him over.
 
Being far from a stranger to the vagaries of circumstance and coincidence, Hawke, of all people should be at least willing to give Alain (or anyone really) the benefit of the doubt. 
 
How far does that extend? *shrug* But I’m willing to let Alain reach first.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I wouldn't say Alain is as evil as a lot of mages are but he seems a bit sheepish and too eager to get involved with blood magic users and murderers.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 19 avril 2011 - 10:27 .

[General User]

I would say that he’s eager to get out of the Circle. He’s desperate. And desperate people can fall prey to anyone who offers a way out.

[LobselVith8]

Rawgrim wrote...

Bethany was ok. Hmm...can`t think of anyone else.

Besides Bethany, Idunna and Gascard DuPuis can both be reformed because of Hawke's actions. Alain wasn't evil, he was a rape victim who followed Ser Thrask in trying to change the Circle. Anders' friend Karl wasn't evil, he was illegally made tranquil against his will. Terrie was a mage from Starkhaven who only wanted to live her life. Malcolm Hawke's friend Tobrius seemed like a good man. The young mage Ella only wanted to see her mother when she was threatened with tranquility and rape by Ser Alrik. The Orlesian noble Emile de Launcet was very socially inept, but not a villain. And the merchant Magus Tavarin Hall was a mage who wasn't insane or trying to kill Hawke.

Hawke only meets a few mages, and most of them are outside of the Gallows except for Bethany and Orsino. The mages Hawke mostly encounters are usually apostates and maleficarum who are outside the Gallows. It's like if we said we're going to judge all the dwarves in Kirkwall based on the carta members we fought.

[Wulfram]

Doesn't Alain say he didn't know Thrask was working with Grace?

[Perles75]

The mages in Kirkwall belong to a threatened society (by the draconian rules imposed by the Kirkwall templars), and in these conditions it's easy to develop extremist ideas. Even easier considering the tremendous power mages can accumulate.
In general, neither the mages nor the templars in Kirkwall make a good impression, at the end everyone is wrong.

[LobselVith8]

Wulfram wrote...

Doesn't Alain say he didn't know Thrask was working with Grace?

Alain is standing right next to Thrask when Hawke confronts Ser Thrask about the hostage, and Alain implies his rape as the reason he sided with Thrask. He specifically mentions Thrask as the person he sided with if Hawke asks why he joined the cause against Meredith.

[Wulfram]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

Doesn't Alain say he didn't know Thrask was working with Grace?

Alain is standing right next to Thrask when Hawke confronts Ser Thrask about the hostage, and Alain implies his rape as the reason he sided with Thrask. He specifically mentions Thrask as the person he sided with if Hawke asks why he joined the cause against Meredith.

Sorry, I meant that he didn't know Grace was involved when Thrask recruited him.

[Rifneno]

Deified Data wrote...

General User wrote...

Or minutes, or hours, or years, or never. 
 
I don’t think anyone would argue that Alain’s a particularly bright lad, especially with regards to the company he keeps.  But when he had to (or was forced to) make a choice, he chose to help, in his own limited capacity. 

Alain has a disturbing habit of involving himself with homicidal blood mages, and then surrendering once it looks like they've lost. He goes along with their plans until Hawke shows up, and instantly he's the naive victim. I'm sorry, but that's all a bit too convenient for me.

Because homicial blood mages are rare in Kirkwall?  If you go buy a loaf of bread in Kirkwall, there's a 30% chance blood magic was involved in making it.

[Cutlass Jack]

Rifneno wrote...

Because homicial blood mages are rare in Kirkwall?  If you go buy a loaf of bread in Kirkwall, there's a 30% chance blood magic was involved in making it.

Much easier than going to the store to buy yeast.

[Benchmark]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

Because homicial blood mages are rare in Kirkwall?  If you go buy a loaf of bread in Kirkwall, there's a 30% chance blood magic was involved in making it.

Much easier than going to the store to buy yeast.

Where's my baking razor...

[stobie]

Deified Data wrote...

General User wrote...

Or minutes, or hours, or years, or never. 
 
I don’t think anyone would argue that Alain’s a particularly bright lad, especially with regards to the company he keeps.  But when he had to (or was forced to) make a choice, he chose to help, in his own limited capacity. 

Alain has a disturbing habit of involving himself with homicidal blood mages, and then surrendering once it looks like they've lost. He goes along with their plans until Hawke shows up, and instantly he's the naive victim. I'm sorry, but that's all a bit too convenient for me.

I took him to be both young and wimpy - but the problem for me is, let's say he's a scheming little blood mage who is also good at manipulating sympathy.  If you let the templar Kerras live, the kid gets molested & threatened about it.  I know they hedge around this, (as with Kelder)  - but I don't know what else that bit of dialogue could imply.  Maybe people tend to be touchier about that kind of abuse. (outright murder is ok - sexual assault is not) -   Whatever the case, that just breaks it in favor of even the most diabolical mage, for me.  If we didn't have a Tranquil mage wandering around talking about 'being Ser Alrik's now,' it might seem more isolated.  But since Alain tells *you* about it, it stands to reason he's tried to tell others. (and one wonders why I'm not telling the Grand Cleric, btw)    Oddly, if you kill Kerras (and I always do, in as mean a way as I can) Alain still says he's been in his chambers, & that if he tells anyone, he'll be made tranquil.

If they have to lock up mages, ok.  If they have to make fiendish ones Tranquil, ok.  But torture & sexual abuse just shouldn't be tolerated.   Now, if they'd turned this a little, and brought that into what blood mages are doing to the templars, that might bring about more templar sympathy - but they don't.    If they said the mages were lying, framing some innocent templar, ok.  But that doesn't happen.  I've paid more attention to those smaller details on subsequent run-throughs, & I'm just not seeing anything that supports, say, Cullen's claim that mages are manipulating sympathy.  They seem to be going quite overtly insane, and for some fairly understandable reasons - but I don't see them making stuff up.

eta:  Summing up better here... Basically, the game tells you that blood mages are doing horrible things to people. (as in the templars taken in the brothel)   But what those things are described, they're nothing you immediately understand. (little mage fingers in my mind has no earthly equivilant for me)   When you hear what happens to the captive mages, that is far too realistic, and contemporary. (as well as historical)   Having mage fingers in your mind might be bad, but it doesn't conjure any particular image of horror to me.  Being dismembered, that's something - the Franken-mum story was recognizable, but again, not something you hear about in the news too often. (as opposed to the abused kids at the chantry)  

On the other hand, unless you happen to click on Alain at the right time & get the right dialogue, you won't know it.  If you don't happen to be in the right place to hear the Tranquil mage talking about Alrik, you don't ask, well, what doesn't anyone else know about this?  I didn't hear it until maybe the 3rd time through.

Modifié par stobie, 19 avril 2011 - 11:41 .

[Alex Kershaw]

Agreed. There's like 500+ mages and about 5 are sane.

[Rifneno]

Benchmark wrote...

Cutlass Jack wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

Because homicial blood mages are rare in Kirkwall?  If you go buy a loaf of bread in Kirkwall, there's a 30% chance blood magic was involved in making it.

Much easier than going to the store to buy yeast.

Where's my baking razor...

Exactly.  Orsino just had a case of the munchies.  He was trying to whip up a batch of cookies.  Never has cookies gone so horribly wrong.