82 réponses à ce sujet

[Xilizhra]

I like Jowan, personally. He's a terrible screw-up, but quite talented and at least well-intentioned... I RP my mage as having retrieved him from the Tower at some point.

[frostajulie]

If I play a mage that didn't like Jowan then I have him killed because he would rather die than be a tranquil and I always agree with him on that.

[Meshakhad2]

I thought that turning him tranquil would be the appropriate punishment. He hasn't done anything deserving of death, but he clearly cannot be trusted with magic.

[frostajulie]

But he would prefer to be dead.

[Ryzaki]

frostajulie wrote...

But he would prefer to be dead.

Yeah well I'm sure those dead villagers at Redcliff would prefer to be alive. We don't all get what we want. 

[Asepsis]

I liked Jowan, I warmed up to him on my first play through. I have the quest in my journal but I'm too scared to do it for fear of crashing my game.

[FellowerOfOdin]

Meshakhad2 wrote...

 He hasn't done anything deserving of death

What the...yeah, except of poisoning the Arl! That IS a pretty valid reason to execute him right on the spot. 

Jowan is an awesome example for a character that's written well enough to make people forget about facts and only act on emotions. I don't know how wrote him (maybe even Gaider himself!) yet this person did a great job. 

I am not really surprised by all the comments here saying "Hey, he is a good guy, he should be allowed to go anywhere he want!" yet most people just forget about the facts. Any "normal" person who'd even try to murder an arl would be sentenced to death immediately, there's no second change thing going on because of a Deux Ex Machina deciding that he might play a role later on. 

Jowan is guilty of attempting to murder a high noble - that basically is a death sentence, no exceptions made. Furthermore, he is a known blood mage on the run - double death sentence. He can regret his deeds as much as he want, the only just decision would be to let him be executed. If you decided to let him live, why not let any potential murderer go if he seems to regret what he did? 

That being said, I also decided to send him to the circle everytime, mostly because I always played a Lawful Good hero, but if you are neutral or simply an objective person, the only right decision would be his execution. 

[Xilizhra]

In part, I know him and can vouch for his repentance (as a mage, anyway). And arguably, what's just isn't always what's right; I believe that he won't be a danger to others in his current state. I also believe that it really doesn't matter that he tried to kill a noble in particular; I judge him based on the simple fact that he tried to kill someone, not who that person was.

[FellowerOfOdin]

Xilizhra wrote...

In part, I know him and can vouch for his repentance (as a mage, anyway). And arguably, what's just isn't always what's right; I believe that he won't be a danger to others in his current state. I also believe that it really doesn't matter that he tried to kill a noble in particular; I judge him based on the simple fact that he tried to kill someone, not who that person was.

It's not about what you think - as I stated, I'd not kill him either but rather send him to the circle, it's just about what's the current law. Let alone that your warden has no right to vouch for anyone as the current ruler declared the Grey Warden traitors.

[Mnemnosyne]

By law, you should be able to invoke the Right of Conscription on him and draft him into the Grey Wardens to (hopefully, if he survives the joining) save his life, like Duncan does to you (if you helped him out as a mage, for instance). There's good indication that this was originally intended, but cut probably for time purposes.

[Bruddajakka]

It was originally intended, and did indeed end up getting cut because they couldn't make it work story wise since there was no way for him to go through the joining....though personally I don't why he couldn't have been conscripted, and then gone through it when there was time.

[Mnemnosyne]

Well, the cutting likely had less to do with it making sense or not, and more to do with not having the time/resources to add another full party member to the game. Each additional character causes a tremendous increase in party banter alone, much less all the other stuff.



The lack of any option to save him does kind of rub me the wrong way primarily because of the fact that he is a rather likeable character who seems to make some bad decisions and otherwise simply fall into one terrible situation after another. If he was less likeable, I wouldn't really care.

[Bruddajakka]

You can save him though. Just let him go when you first meet him in the dungeon. If you do you later see him again helping a bunch of refugees. Unfortunately due to a bug the quest doesn't show up properly.

[Zjarcal]

Bruddajakka wrote...

You can save him though. Just let him go when you first meet him in the dungeon. If you do you later see him again helping a bunch of refugees. Unfortunately due to a bug the quest doesn't show up properly.

Funny fact about that encounter, one of the refugees looks identical to Jowan.

Modifié par Zjarcal, 27 octobre 2010 - 06:14 .

[Bruddajakka]

Yeah you can also see him marching with the rest of the Mages when they head off to fight the Horde if you have Eamon release him to the circle apparently.

[Elhanan]

Both Jowain and Niall are good motivational reasons to join the Wardens. Imagine being walled up with those two whiners/winners every day....

[FellowerOfOdin]

Koyasha wrote...

By law, you should be able to invoke the Right of Conscription on him and draft him into the Grey Wardens to (hopefully, if he survives the joining) save his life, like Duncan does to you (if you helped him out as a mage, for instance). There's good indication that this was originally intended, but cut probably for time purposes.

The Right of Conscription is no longer legal as all Grey Wardens are considered traitors and enemies of the crown.

Modifié par FellowerOfOdin, 27 octobre 2010 - 12:42 .

[Reaverwind]

Elhanan wrote...

Both Jowain and Niall are good motivational reasons to join the Wardens. Imagine being walled up with those two whiners/winners every day....

*shudder* I'd rather not...

[kaispan]

Bruddajakka wrote...

Yeah you can also see him marching with the rest of the Mages when they head off to fight the Horde if you have Eamon release him to the circle apparently.

I read that on the wiki, also... but I tried to check myself and taped that scene with fraps and kept replaying it... noticed a whole bunch of repeated faces but no one that looked like Jowan (I sent him back to Circle in that playthrough too, btw ;D).

Also, if we're applying laws like attempted murder of nobility, how about refusing a direct order from the regent? Loghain was the one who sent him. He didn't have any reason to distrust Loghain--the man was basically the king*, and offering him what appeared to be a legitimately legal way out.

"I was told that Arl Eamon was a threat to Ferelden, that if I dealt with him Loghain would settle matters with the Circle. All I wanted was to be able to return."

I can see why it would be difficult for Eamon to consider pardoning him, but honestly Jowan was as much a victim in this as everybody else; he got in way over his head without thinking it through and somehow ended up with the worst possible outcome in everything. I really feel sorry for him, and he made me rethink the templar/chantry/mage dynamic a lot. Way too much. I'm actually writing a fic centering around mages (hahahah yeah) so call me biased, whatever, but I find them to be the most interesting aspect of Dragon Age. All that overthinking actually changed my position on Jowan as well, after originally feeling outraged/betrayed by him with my mage pc... now I can actually understand.

*The timeline is a little messy here, I believe, but in any case he outranks Eamon and certainly Jowan (who isn't really in a position to argue regardless)

[chex mix]

Jowan was a better friend then Alistair. He has pretty much been your friend during your entire stay at the circle.

[Mnemnosyne]

FellowerOfOdin wrote...

Koyasha wrote...

By law, you should be able to invoke the Right of Conscription on him and draft him into the Grey Wardens to (hopefully, if he survives the joining) save his life, like Duncan does to you (if you helped him out as a mage, for instance). There's good indication that this was originally intended, but cut probably for time purposes.

The Right of Conscription is no longer legal as all Grey Wardens are considered traitors and enemies of the crown.

Either Arl Eamon recognizes the Grey Wardens, or he doesn't.  If he recognizes Grey Wardens then you have the authority to use the Right of Conscription.  If not, then there's no reason the Warden character should be working with him, since if he refuses one authority of the Wardens, who's to say he's not just as bad as Loghain and will turn on the Wardens the moment he sees a better option?

[nos_astra]

Your Warden is a nobody. Either he/she is a mage (used to be confined to the Circle Tower), an elf (Alienage or Brecillian Forest, a community of their own), a dwarf (Orzammer, the city unter the Frostback mountains that you are not allowed to leave) or a human noble (your father never brought you to Denerim, nobles might know your name but not your face, your family is killed, your name disgraced).

And now have a look at DAO.

NPC: Hey you, random guy I don't know at all, you look able.
PC: I sure do. I'm a Grey Warden.
NPC: Don't I know it. And for some odd reason the fact that your order is outlawed and you are considered traitors by the regent doesn't concern me at all, neither does the fact that you're a mage/elf/dwarf. And I totally haven't seen you slit the the throat of someone who got in your way back there. Let me be rude for a moment before I ignore all this and trust you in a matter of great importance.
PC: It's good to be me.

*rolleyes*

Eamon doesn't really need you, not after he woke up. You are useful, but the blond guy who keeps following you around is much more interesting.

Modifié par klarabella, 30 octobre 2010 - 12:26 .

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

klarabella wrote...


Eamon doesn't really need you, not after he woke up. You are useful, but the blond guy who keeps following you around is much more interesting.

Yes he is!:wub::wub:

Still, I'd have liked to be able to get Jowan as a companion, force that ass Eamon to release him to my custody. I liked Jowan. He epically screws up everything he touches. Which would make the game even more fun!

[Ferretinabun]

Koyasha wrote...

Well, the cutting likely had less to do with it making sense or not, and more to do with not having the time/resources to add another full party member to the game. Each additional character causes a tremendous increase in party banter alone, much less all the other stuff.

Couldn't they have included the option to Conscript him - but just have him fail the ritual? So far, throughout Origins and Awakenings, the ritual has got a fiarly decent survival rate. A few more failures would give it a bit more gravitas.

The lack of any option to save him does kind of rub me the wrong way primarily because of the fact that he is a rather likeable character who seems to make some bad decisions and otherwise simply fall into one terrible situation after another. If he was less likeable, I wouldn't really care.

Ditto here. Seems you can't help but screw him over. Our Wardens must have followed the darkspawn blood at the Joining ritual with a bit swig of Callous Bastard Potion!

Modifié par Ferretinabun, 30 octobre 2010 - 01:20 .

[Mnemnosyne]

Ferretinabun wrote...

Koyasha wrote...

Well, the cutting likely had less to do with it making sense or not, and more to do with not having the time/resources to add another full party member to the game. Each additional character causes a tremendous increase in party banter alone, much less all the other stuff.

Couldn't they have included the option to Conscript him - but just have him fail the ritual? So far, throughout Origins and Awakenings, the ritual has got a fiarly decent survival rate. A few more failures would give it a bit more gravitas.

I thought of this also a long time ago, but the problem is that at this point in the game, you don't know how to do the Joining, and even if you knew, you don't have the resources necessary (archdemon blood).  So he would have to be a companion at least until after the Landsmeet.