541 réponses à ce sujet

[didymos1120]

Seboist wrote...

Another good example is the whole Veetor situation. Paragon outcome gets the info AND Veetor coming to Tali's assistance in her loyalty. Renegade on the other hand just get the info....... so, uh what's the pay off?

Why are you so obsessed with the Veetor thing?  Especially because I really don't see why you'd expect that to go well in the first place, given all the red flags the game throws up about it.  What should the payoff there have been anyway? Slightly more info on the Collectors?  How would that have worked?

[Seboist]

didymos1120 wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...

 In ME1 Renegade never came across as evil, it was just a different mindset with different value judgements but equally valid. 

Uh, yes it did.  RenShep acted like a sadistic psycho on many occasions.  It was one of the most annoying flaws of ME1 to me: picking a renegade response and getting a gleeful killer instead of the hard, resolute soldier I'd have expected.

A lot of Renegade and Paragon options are totally one dimensional and tough to balance out for neutral minded people like myself. We have to juggle between two extremes; on the one hand we have a super idealistic blubbering idiot and on the other we have this non-empathetic robot  jerkface who expresses less emotion than Legion.

That on top of biases, meta-gaming rewarding and non-cosmetic outcomes makes things very fustrating.

[Seboist]

didymos1120 wrote...

Seboist wrote...

Another good example is the whole Veetor situation. Paragon outcome gets the info AND Veetor coming to Tali's assistance in her loyalty. Renegade on the other hand just get the info....... so, uh what's the pay off?

Why are you so obsessed with the Veetor thing?  Especially because I really don't see why you'd expect that to go well in the first place, given all the red flags the game throws up about it.  What should the payoff there have been anyway? Slightly more info on the Collectors?  How would that have worked?

Something....ANYTHING should have been the pay off. Renegade and Paragon should be two sides of the same coin. The game shouldn't reward one side over the other.

[88mphSlayer]

MajesticJazz wrote...

Seboist wrote...

Moiaussi wrote...

oldag07 wrote...

I haven't read most of this thread, but the jist of the OP complain is choices don't make as big of effect on 2nd game as he/she would have liked.

To quote Casey Hudson
""It has to be one or the either. Either you really let people's choices have repercussion. Or, the choice doesn't really affect things and then things end up coming back together. As we're doing parts one and two, we have a really difficult challenge in terms of creating very different outcomes and yet being able to continue the story. The good thing about the third one will be that we no longer have that constraint and things can diverge as far as we can make them go. "
http://au.xbox360.ig.../1055366p2.html

After ME1, they went on about how choices would matter, though, about how important they would be. Fans ate it up. Then ME2 came out and they didn't give us the divergence we were told to expect after all.

Now with ME3 looming, they say this, but frankly the same issues are there. There are the same budgetary issues with divergence. The only changes that would fit into the appearant budget they have to work with would be that all the 'major differences' would be in end dialogue, since that is the only area where the story is no longer constrained.

Fool me once.....

Yeah, if ME3 is going to show all this "big change" then why are we being pigeon holed into fighting Cerberus despite the fact that both CB endings imply some sort of continued cooperation?

In ME2 we're given all these hints that we can work hand in hand with Cerberus(albeit a bit begrudgedly) by handing Veetor to them, sending Rawling's data to them, keeping David with Overlord,keeping the CB and having unlockable Cerberus uniforms for all the Aliens but now we're stuck fighting them no matter what? So much for "choice".

In fact the only "change" will prolly be instead of fighting Cerberus troops armed with regular weapons, they'll be fighting us with Collector ones if we kept the base. It's another case of Renegades getting screwed.

You also forget that we were able to give Legion to Cerberus to study, the first ever intact Geth and one with a unique personality. 

I don't know, but it has been said by someone that Bioware is just cateering to the anti-Cerberus crowd that became so huge right after ME2 came out. So I guess this is just Bioware p laying to their desires instead of trying to tell a stroy that they initially wanted to tell.

In a way, it is less of a retcon and more of fan service.

I mean seriously, with the Reaper attack and their Husk, don't you think it is a bit overkill to ALSO have Cerberus fighting you?

just give us the Mystery Machine and Scooby Doo and it'll all make sense

see - TIM is actually harbinger, and he would've gotten away with it if it weren't for those meddling kids

Tali = Velma, Scooby Doo = Grunt, Shaggy = Joker, Fred = Shepard, Daphne = Ashley/Miranda you know the drill

Modifié par 88mphSlayer, 23 avril 2011 - 05:40 .

[AngelicMachinery]

Seboist wrote...

There's plenty of "replacement cameos" that could have been added for Renegades who killed certain people in ME1, in fact almost all the "killables" had logical replacements.

It's not only the cameo issue that's against Renegades but entire outcomes like Paragons can save the Council with minimal losses and there aren't any humans who lash against Shep for being an "alien stooge" . This is in stark contrast to where if the Council is sacrificed, aliens are accusing Shepard of scheming to put humans on a power trip.

Another good example is the whole Veetor situation. Paragon outcome gets the info AND Veetor coming to Tali's assistance in her loyalty. Renegade on the other hand just get the info....... so, uh what's the pay off?

That on top of criminals all being reformed and now Cerberus after us no matter what really paints a bleak picture for Renegade.

I did notice that Paragon is able to manage a similar ending,  it is a bit eyebrow raising that the causality rate is so low.  I personally was surprised,  but,  come on if Paragon ended up getting slapped hard and suffering for their choices at the end of the game it’d be them here complaining that Bioware hates them,  their dog, and possibly their mothers.  Also, are you really surprised that your catching flack from Alien races after you threw them all under the bus?  Sure, your reasoning was good…  but the aliens aren’t going to smile and thank Shepherd for turning society on it’s head.

The vetoor thing doesn’t even seem like a blip on the radar to me.  It’s just another cameo,  he doesn’t “Help” with the trial he just kind of rambles incoherently. 

Personally,  I’m none to surprised that TIM is going after Shepherd.  She’s thrown monkey wrenches into his plots before, why risk her doing it again. 

[Iakus]

ExtremeOne wrote...
Could there be a logical reason as to why Cerberus and TIM are after Shepard sure . But so far its starting to seem like it will not be logical . Because go back and play the end decision of 2 again . The Paragon choice is Shepard gives Cerberus the middle finger and says F U . The renegade choice is Shepard agrees with TIM and you would think as it ends that ok I have made my choice and I am with Cerberus now . Now comes ME 3 and we find out. No matter what choice you made at the end of 2 Cerberus is fater Shepard . That makes no sense at all based on the story of 2 . Oh and if you end 2 with Shepard dieing and saving the base  the SR 2 is back in Cerberus port . So you tell me what is wrong with this .  

Yeah but that's what I mean, the reason may be something totally independant of whether Shep flips off TIM or joins TIM as his personal Darth Vader.

I'm all for looking at ME3 news with a critical eye.  And the time may come to rage.  But that time has not yet  arrived.  Not for this detail at least.

Besides, I was a Paragon who was a loyal Alliance marine and served the Council faithfully as a Spectre in ME1   Yet no matter what choices I made, I ended up shunned by them in ME2.  How fair is that?

[seirhart]

That is the thing about paragons they can be as deadly/destructive just like renegades but paragons do it in such a way that the colleteral damage is as minimum as possible.

Modifié par seirhart, 23 avril 2011 - 05:40 .

[DPSSOC]

AngelicMachinery wrote...
I did notice that Paragon is able to manage a similar ending,  it is a bit eyebrow raising that the causality rate is so low.  I personally was surprised,  but,  come on if Paragon ended up getting slapped hard and suffering for their choices at the end of the game it’d be them here complaining that Bioware hates them,  their dog, and possibly their mothers.

I think at this point people would be happy with a slap on the wrist.  I'm not big on the "Paragon's should be punished too" idea but Paragons take a lot of chances, let a lot of dangerous people walk free, could it just once not work out?  Could we have just one of those people you show mercy to make you kind of regret it?  Nothing big you just find out that they wasted the second chance you gave them and are back to running with mercs or whatever.

[Seboist]

AngelicMachinery wrote...

Seboist wrote...

There's plenty of "replacement cameos" that could have been added for Renegades who killed certain people in ME1, in fact almost all the "killables" had logical replacements.

It's not only the cameo issue that's against Renegades but entire outcomes like Paragons can save the Council with minimal losses and there aren't any humans who lash against Shep for being an "alien stooge" . This is in stark contrast to where if the Council is sacrificed, aliens are accusing Shepard of scheming to put humans on a power trip.

Another good example is the whole Veetor situation. Paragon outcome gets the info AND Veetor coming to Tali's assistance in her loyalty. Renegade on the other hand just get the info....... so, uh what's the pay off?

That on top of criminals all being reformed and now Cerberus after us no matter what really paints a bleak picture for Renegade.

I did notice that Paragon is able to manage a similar ending,  it is a bit eyebrow raising that the causality rate is so low.  I personally was surprised,  but,  come on if Paragon ended up getting slapped hard and suffering for their choices at the end of the game it’d be them here complaining that Bioware hates them,  their dog, and possibly their mothers.  Also, are you really surprised that your catching flack from Alien races after you threw them all under the bus?  Sure, your reasoning was good…  but the aliens aren’t going to smile and thank Shepherd for turning society on it’s head.

The vetoor thing doesn’t even seem like a blip on the radar to me.  It’s just another cameo,  he doesn’t “Help” with the trial he just kind of rambles incoherently. 

Personally,  I’m none to surprised that TIM is going after Shepherd.  She’s thrown monkey wrenches into his plots before, why risk her doing it again. 

I'm actually fine with the Alien response to the council sacrifice, what I'm not fine with is the lack of a fair reverse outcome where humans are giving Shep flak for sacrificing Alliance ships(besides Khalisah but she eggs on Shepard either way).

[AngelicMachinery]

seirhart wrote...

That is the thing about paragons they can be as deadly/destructive just like renegades but paragons do it in such a way that the colleteral damage is as minimum as possible.

Yea,  but, come on you guys just scream step onme. All that sweet and friendly garbage,  it's just mind bogglinghow  anyone can take you seriously.

[ExtremeOne]

iakus wrote...

ExtremeOne wrote...
Could there be a logical reason as to why Cerberus and TIM are after Shepard sure . But so far its starting to seem like it will not be logical . Because go back and play the end decision of 2 again . The Paragon choice is Shepard gives Cerberus the middle finger and says F U . The renegade choice is Shepard agrees with TIM and you would think as it ends that ok I have made my choice and I am with Cerberus now . Now comes ME 3 and we find out. No matter what choice you made at the end of 2 Cerberus is fater Shepard . That makes no sense at all based on the story of 2 . Oh and if you end 2 with Shepard dieing and saving the base  the SR 2 is back in Cerberus port . So you tell me what is wrong with this .  

Yeah but that's what I mean, the reason may be something totally independant of whether Shep flips off TIM or joins TIM as his personal Darth Vader.

I'm all for looking at ME3 news with a critical eye.  And the time may come to rage.  But that time has not yet  arrived.  Not for this detail at least.

Besides, I was a Paragon who was a loyal Alliance marine and served the Council faithfully as a Spectre in ME1   Yet no matter what choices I made, I ended up shunned by them in ME2.  How fair is that?

  







Its not fair that you played ME 1 as a loyal soldier to the alliance and in 2 you did not have the choice of who to align with . Thats why I am so pissed I want Bioware to explain why Shepard does not have that choice . If this is really suppose to be about the player's Shepard story then make it that way .  Is Star Wars Anakin Skywalker made his choice to join the dark side .  But he had a choice .  

[Moiaussi]

AngelicMachinery wrote...

Yea,  but, come on you guys just scream step onme. All that sweet and friendly garbage,  it's just mind bogglinghow  anyone can take you seriously.

Which helps explain why Saren didn't simply have Sovereign shoot the Normandy when it was completely visible within the atmosphere at Vermire. Being underestimated isn't always a bad thing, and contrary to renegade propeganda, paragon Shepards are just as quick to shoot Geth, Collectors or mercs from conceilment.

[seirhart]

Moiaussi wrote...

AngelicMachinery wrote...

Yea,  but, come on you guys just scream step onme. All that sweet and friendly garbage,  it's just mind bogglinghow  anyone can take you seriously.

Which helps explain why Saren didn't simply have Sovereign shoot the Normandy when it was completely visible within the atmosphere at Vermire. Being underestimated isn't always a bad thing, and contrary to renegade propeganda, paragon Shepards are just as quick to shoot Geth, Collectors or mercs from conceilment.

I don't exactly have a problem with renegades; renegades are I believe making a mistake underestimating paragons. As you said paragon can be as quick as renegades to shoot the enemies either standing in front of them or hiding.

[88mphSlayer]

seirhart wrote...

Moiaussi wrote...

AngelicMachinery wrote...

Yea,  but, come on you guys just scream step onme. All that sweet and friendly garbage,  it's just mind bogglinghow  anyone can take you seriously.

Which helps explain why Saren didn't simply have Sovereign shoot the Normandy when it was completely visible within the atmosphere at Vermire. Being underestimated isn't always a bad thing, and contrary to renegade propeganda, paragon Shepards are just as quick to shoot Geth, Collectors or mercs from conceilment.

I don't exactly have a problem with renegades; renegades are I believe making a mistake underestimating paragons. As you said paragon can be as quick as renegades to shoot the enemies either standing in front of them or hiding.

wouldn't that be an oxymoron?

[ExtremeOne]

seirhart wrote...

Moiaussi wrote...

AngelicMachinery wrote...

Yea,  but, come on you guys just scream step onme. All that sweet and friendly garbage,  it's just mind bogglinghow  anyone can take you seriously.

Which helps explain why Saren didn't simply have Sovereign shoot the Normandy when it was completely visible within the atmosphere at Vermire. Being underestimated isn't always a bad thing, and contrary to renegade propeganda, paragon Shepards are just as quick to shoot Geth, Collectors or mercs from conceilment.

I don't exactly have a problem with renegades; renegades are I believe making a mistake underestimating paragons. As you said paragon can be as quick as renegades to shoot the enemies either standing in front of them or hiding.

  





Why should we Bioware is clearly backing the Paragon fans .    

[seirhart]

88mphSlayer wrote...

seirhart wrote...

Moiaussi wrote...

AngelicMachinery wrote...

Yea,  but, come on you guys just scream step onme. All that sweet and friendly garbage,  it's just mind bogglinghow  anyone can take you seriously.

Which helps explain why Saren didn't simply have Sovereign shoot the Normandy when it was completely visible within the atmosphere at Vermire. Being underestimated isn't always a bad thing, and contrary to renegade propeganda, paragon Shepards are just as quick to shoot Geth, Collectors or mercs from conceilment.

I don't exactly have a problem with renegades; renegades are I believe making a mistake underestimating paragons. As you said paragon can be as quick as renegades to shoot the enemies either standing in front of them or hiding.

wouldn't that be an oxymoron?

It probably is but for me I don't really have a problem with renegade players except for I believe renegades underestimate paragons.

[ExtremeOne]

seirhart wrote...

88mphSlayer wrote...

seirhart wrote...

Moiaussi wrote...

AngelicMachinery wrote...

Yea,  but, come on you guys just scream step onme. All that sweet and friendly garbage,  it's just mind bogglinghow  anyone can take you seriously.

Which helps explain why Saren didn't simply have Sovereign shoot the Normandy when it was completely visible within the atmosphere at Vermire. Being underestimated isn't always a bad thing, and contrary to renegade propeganda, paragon Shepards are just as quick to shoot Geth, Collectors or mercs from conceilment.

I don't exactly have a problem with renegades; renegades are I believe making a mistake underestimating paragons. As you said paragon can be as quick as renegades to shoot the enemies either standing in front of them or hiding.

wouldn't that be an oxymoron?

It probably is but for me I don't really have a problem with renegade players except for I believe renegades underestimate paragons.

  




Underesitmate paragon players that is new. Really I mean The GI article oozes with paragon and anti Cerberus fan service in it .  The ME story is now being told by fan service   

[didymos1120]

ExtremeOne wrote...

  seirhart wrote...
It probably is but for me I don't really have a problem with renegade players except for I believe renegades underestimate paragons.

  

Underesitmate paragon players that is new. Really I mean The GI article oozes with paragon and anti Cerberus fan service in it .  The ME story is now being told by fan service   

Do you even bother reading what people write, or do you just not care as long as it seems to provide an opening for you to re-spew your latest talking point?  The GI article is IRRELEVANT to what renegade PLAYERS do, which is what the post you were responding to was actually talking about.

[Jaron Oberyn]

I don't think it's bioware backing up the paragon fans. It's more like the story is more linear thn it was in me2. In me1 they said how you will make all of these decisions that will dramatically change the universe in the subsequent games. Obviously that didn't happen in me2. Now me3 is going to be the same, and possibly worse. Thats why I've learned to play this game for what it is - a shooter, not an rpg. Try it, and you won't be as disappointed

-Polite

[ExtremeOne]

PoliteAssasin wrote...

I don't think it's bioware backing up the paragon fans. It's more like the story is more linear thn it was in me2. In me1 they said how you will make all of these decisions that will dramatically change the universe in the subsequent games. Obviously that didn't happen in me2. Now me3 is going to be the same, and possibly worse. Thats why I've learned to play this game for what it is - a shooter, not an rpg. Try it, and you won't be as disappointed

-Polite

  





You make a good point.  

[CroGamer002]

PoliteAssasin wrote...

I don't think it's bioware backing up the paragon fans. It's more like the story is more linear thn it was in me2. In me1 they said how you will make all of these decisions that will dramatically change the universe in the subsequent games. Obviously that didn't happen in me2. Now me3 is going to be the same, and possibly worse. Thats why I've learned to play this game for what it is - a shooter, not an rpg. Try it, and you won't be as disappointed

-Polite

How can any major choice in ME1 impact ME2 plot?


ME3 is going to be different since:

A) It's a last game in the series
ME1 and ME2 choices can impact ME3 do to it's plot


Also ME2 IS an RPG.

[Moiaussi]

ExtremeOne wrote...

Underesitmate paragon players that is new. Really I mean The GI article oozes with paragon and anti Cerberus fan service in it .  The ME story is now being told by fan service   

So if a particular reviewer is pro paragon they are horrible and it is 'fan service', but when we suddenly were just as arbitrarily forced to work with Cerberus in ME2, and the reviews were praising that, they were great reviews?

Bit of a double standard there?

Btw, if pleasing fans is wrong, exactly who should they be pleasing? Not saying this is good writing..... just wondering where you are coming from here.

[Vormaerin]

Its fun to be highly selective and only see what we want to see. Why, I can find proof of just about anything now. I just have to ignore all the things that don't agree with my point of view..

Renegade players are NOT getting the shaft. Renegade rewards are money, cool acts of violence, etc NOT people being friendly to you. WTF? You are a badass renegade who doesn't take crap from anyone and spits on everyone else. What about that makes you think your "reward" is extra friends?

The idea that Bioware is pushing the paragon path is a joke, considering that the default is mostly the renegade choices. If you don't import an ME1 save, its pretty straight renegade: Wrex dead, Rachni dead, Council dead, etc. I can't even think of a paragon choice default off the top of my head.

Pro Cerberus is not a renegade choice, its an anti-paragon choice. Renegades don't snivel at TIM's feet. They tell him to shut up and do what he's told because Shepard is the badass, not TIM. Sorry if you just want to be a bootlicker for the other team. That's not paragon OR renegade.

[Moiaussi]

Mesina2 wrote...

How can any major choice in ME1 impact ME2 plot?


ME3 is going to be different since:

A) It's a last game in the series
ME1 and ME2 choices can impact ME3 do to it's plot

Also ME2 IS an RPG.

You could have had exactly the same plot working for the Council. They could have gotten information from spies in Cerberus, from their own agents in the field (the Spectres may be questionable, but the STG seems competent), and/or from the Shadowbroker.

It would have taken a little bit more voice acting, and likely a little more scripting, but the could have kept both paths similar, and stuck with most of the same animiation.

With respect to ME3, though, what is your belief based on? Just because it is the last game in the series doesn't mean they don't have the same issues with divergent paths requiring more work. The only place where the have any extra room is at the end. They can have events matter in an epilogue, which would likely be narrated ala Fallout or NWN2, but otherwise they would still have to do divergent paths during the game, something they insisted there was no budget for in ME2.

After ME1 came out, they said "Decisions matter! You have our word!." ME2 came out and veterans said "Hey wait a minute....." So suddenly it changed to "Decisions matter, but not til ME3!!!!"

Fool me once.....

[ExtremeOne]

Moiaussi wrote...

ExtremeOne wrote...

Underesitmate paragon players that is new. Really I mean The GI article oozes with paragon and anti Cerberus fan service in it .  The ME story is now being told by fan service   

So if a particular reviewer is pro paragon they are horrible and it is 'fan service', but when we suddenly were just as arbitrarily forced to work with Cerberus in ME2, and the reviews were praising that, they were great reviews?

Bit of a double standard there?

Btw, if pleasing fans is wrong, exactly who should they be pleasing? Not saying this is good writing..... just wondering where you are coming from here.

  






If Bioware had a Story for Mass Effect 1 through 3 laid out and was following the story then I would not say anything . But so far they are telling 3 different stories of Cerberus  in 3 games . ME 1 they were bad but we find out they were part of the alliance at one time . ME 2 They want to stop the reapers and collectors and they bring back shepard . Now in ME 3 they are evil and after Shepard. Something does not make sense . so yeah there is a problem with the story .  I have no problem with  pleasing the fans as long as it is not story related .  ME 3 is starting to sound like a big fat fan service to the paragons and anti Cerberus fans . That is wrong because that impacts the story .