541 réponses à ce sujet

[Vormaerin]

Seboist wrote...

This is in stark contrast to the nonsense in ME where Paragon get to see the old council but Renegade don't see the human dominated one.

I just see the elf/werewolf thing as pure cosmetics.  "Ooh, I get pointed eared irrelevants in a later scene instead of furry ones".

Besides which, you do get hosed if you side with the furballs: the only source of unlimited elfroots gets killed and you can't make healing potions very easily anymore.

"Separate but equal" nearly always means "completely trivial".    Eek, a girl gives the speech instead of a guy.   Gosh, that changed the plot....  That was the biggest problem with DAO:  You could make all these important seeming decisions that didn't change a damn thing about how the game played out.    In DA2, which was still a railroad, you at least had differences in how subsequent encounters played out.

Does talking to Councillor Air Quotes actually change anything vs talking to Anderson and Udina?   I just don't see how you are screwed over there....

[CroGamer002]

[quote]Moiaussi wrote...

You figure the Council would have made you walk? Get a grip.[/quote]

I think they would tell where to BUY one.

[quote]And Joker knew that, how? Talking with TIM could have been done in transit. They could still have changed course if they needed to, and might have been going in the right direction anyway incidentally. Dismiss it all you want, but Cerberus was keeping you on a shorter leash than the Council was.[/quote]

But that would be pointless to do.
Besides, Normandy is always in transit.
Look out of the window.


And yes, Cerberus did keep you on shorter leash, but also way more helpful then Council that only complained about you and never gave you any founds.

[quote]And you could have been sent there by the Council just as easily.[/quote]

You do know that Illusive Man set up the attack and it was reason why he knew that before it was attacked?


[quote]The Turians that TIM lied about the existance of? You are forgetting it was a fake signal? And TIM claimed to be jamming the fake.[/quote]

You do know that there was a Turian military ship there?
Some other Turian patrol would get there at some point.


[quote]And the Council only asked you not to go certain places. They didn't order you to rush anywhere. Remember you are the one trying to make the case that the Council couldn't have given you the same clues Cerberus did, that there couldn't have been parallel, similar paths. So far you seem to have abandoned that case and are getting bogged down in details.[/quote]

Geez, maybe because there was no point to rush in any of those places?

[quote]Not entirely stupid. They each have different politics, so a decision as to which to support could support different types of decisions in the field, and possibly different gear.[/quote]

Looking how Cerberus is "great", not convinced.

[quote]The Council has more resources, but are more contrained in using them since they have to answer to their constituents back home. The net effect is that there could have been similar resources available to each. Perhaps some different gear or training to make each side interesting in different ways, but they could have been kept similar in a believable fashion.[/quote]

You got me there.

[quote]That depends on what the role it played in the cycle, doesn't it? If it is as unimportant as you suggest, then ME2 really was a complete and utter waste of time.[/quote]

CB was a plan B in case Vanguard Reaper f*cked up.
Well plan B didn't work out and with either destroyed or kept base, Reapers don't have any use of it since now they are going with frontal attack.

[quote]Since when has Bioware not been a for-profit company? Note that their managerial philosophy may have changed when EA bought them, but hard to say if that is an issue or not.[/quote]

There's a difference between for-profit company and money grabbing douchebags.


[quote]There is a subtle difference though. In ME1, the Council asked him to retrurn and Shepard wanted to, thinking they were finally going to take the threat seriously as they promised in their transmission. We may have been forced to accept Shepard's decision, but it was still Shepard's. Not TIM's, not the Council's, not Joker's.[/quote]

And?


[quote]Reaaaaaaly. So then why didn't they have the ME2 combat engine for ME1? And why were the comics released so late rather than right from the start? And why is it taking this long for ME3? They would likely have had a plot outline, but there is no way the entire plot was written in advance. And if it was, why are there still writers on staff anyway?[/quote]

WTF are you talking about?

[quote]Elements of the comics, such as Bailey suddenly being considered a traitor, or Udina ending up in charge no matter how you choose come to mind off hand.[/quote]

Comics don't exist.

[quote]There is only a lack of evidence to the extent the writers say so. The derelect reaper was discovered by Shepard in ME1. Proper debreifing would have shown that the rest of the squad were not merely playing along with some delusion of Shepard. Sovereign was obviously studied after the battle (hence the Thannix), but the lack of similararities with Geth technology is utterly dismissed. And what does it cost them to allow investigation? One scout ship?[/quote]

Let's see.
We were attacked by Geth and we know little about them and we also have some guy saying there some machines of death coming in to kill us and it was 2 years after that and nothing happen.

Yeah, it was probably Geth.

[quote]Appearantly the writers disagree with you. How do you explain their comment that ME3 will have more RPG elements than ME2 but less than ME1?[/quote]

That's not what I meant.

[quote]And yet ME2 wasn't what they promised after ME1. You can say 'but they wouldn't do that' all you want, but they already have once.[/quote]

This time is different.
Didn't you see GI magazine?

[quote]So you claim to be on the Bioware staff then? If so you should be identifying yourself properly rather than pretending to be just another poster. If you are not on the Bioware staff, you have no basis to make such an absolute claim. I understand that you may believe the concerns to be false, but stop pretending that you know everything there is to know about an unfinished game.[/quote]

Ha?
I'm pretending that I know everything? Where did you get that idea?!

[MajesticJazz]

Mesina2 wrote...

Reaaaaaaly. So then why didn't they have the ME2 combat engine for ME1? And why were the comics released so late rather than right from the start? And why is it taking this long for ME3? They would likely have had a plot outline, but there is no way the entire plot was written in advance. And if it was, why are there still writers on staff anyway?

WTF are you talking about?

He is replying to your notion that the ENTIRE ME trilogy was written before ME1 which is a damn lie. Yes, Bioware had the general over-arching story of the trilogy done but not the individual stories. 

An over-arching story is like this and I'll take the Star Wars OT as an example:

Luke Skywalker, a young farm boy on the planet of Tatooine grows up and matures to become one of the greatest Jedi ever by defeating Darth Vader and putting an end to the Galactic  Empire.

-----------------------------
That is an over-arching story to the Star Wars trilogy (original trilogy). However you can see that there are many details missing such as Vader being Luke's father, the battle of Hoth, Luke's companion's like Han Solo etc etc etc.....

Bioware did the same thing with the ME trilogy. They created the over-arching story and then later on filled in the gaps. The problem with this is that sometimes things aren't consistant and many things tend and can be retconned and/or swapped out. 

We do not know what Bioware included in their over-arching story to the ME trilogy so we cannot say who is right and who is wrong in that regard. However we can say that it is apparent that some things have been changed on the spot to better fit in with their current ideas. Again, going back to Cerberus who in ME1 was just an Alliance Black-Ops group who went rogue, to being an all out terrorist organization headed by a billionaire in ME2.

[CroGamer002]

^Then he misunderstood what I meant.

[squee913]

SalsaDMA wrote...

Mesina2 wrote...

^How it ruined roleplaying?

When you start picking choices, not because of how your character would react, but because you need a certain amount of points that choice gives you, then you are metagaming, not roleplaying.

That's what the paragon/renegade system fudged up in ME2.

If you can't see it's an issue that the game limits your character from making choices because of a virtual point system, then I don't know how else to explain to you what roleplaying and metagaming has of issues with each other.

That sounds like a self control issue on the fault of the player, not Bioware. No one is forcing you to choose one type of answer just to get points. If you want to role play than just select the option you want and ignore the color. Don't get mad at Bioware because you can't keep from pushing the shiny red button.

It's like saying that it is Bioware's fault that I did not choose to level up overload becasue I know I will need incinerate more in a later level.

[Dave666]

squee913 wrote...

SalsaDMA wrote...

Mesina2 wrote...

^How it ruined roleplaying?

When you start picking choices, not because of how your character would react, but because you need a certain amount of points that choice gives you, then you are metagaming, not roleplaying.

That's what the paragon/renegade system fudged up in ME2.

If you can't see it's an issue that the game limits your character from making choices because of a virtual point system, then I don't know how else to explain to you what roleplaying and metagaming has of issues with each other.

That sounds like a self control issue on the fault of the player, not Bioware. No one is forcing you to choose one type of answer just to get points. If you want to role play than just select the option you want and ignore the color. Don't get mad at Bioware because you can't keep from pushing the shiny red button.

It's like saying that it is Bioware's fault that I did not choose to level up overload becasue I know I will need incinerate more in a later level.

Not sure how appropriate that analogy is Squee, after that level that you needed Incinerate for you could then reset your points. This can't be done with Paragon and Renegade points. Perhaps if after sacrificing those points to level Incinerate if you could then never change it and you were stuck with a low level of Overload for the rest of the game, then it might be a good analogy.

Modifié par Dave666, 23 avril 2011 - 11:03 .

[squee913]

Dave666 wrote...

squee913 wrote...

SalsaDMA wrote...

Mesina2 wrote...

^How it ruined roleplaying?

When you start picking choices, not because of how your character would react, but because you need a certain amount of points that choice gives you, then you are metagaming, not roleplaying.

That's what the paragon/renegade system fudged up in ME2.

If you can't see it's an issue that the game limits your character from making choices because of a virtual point system, then I don't know how else to explain to you what roleplaying and metagaming has of issues with each other.

That sounds like a self control issue on the fault of the player, not Bioware. No one is forcing you to choose one type of answer just to get points. If you want to role play than just select the option you want and ignore the color. Don't get mad at Bioware because you can't keep from pushing the shiny red button.

It's like saying that it is Bioware's fault that I did not choose to level up overload becasue I know I will need incinerate more in a later level.

Not sure how appropriate that analogy is Squee, after that level that you needed Incinerate for you could then reset your points. This can't be done with Paragon and Renegade points. Perhaps if after sacrificing those points to level Incinerate if you could then never change it and you were stuck with a low level of Overload for the rest of the game, then it might be a good analogy.

You got me there. It does not change the point, however, since I could just use the leveling system of ME1. Or I could say it is like spending points in DAO to get a certain spell you will need later, instead of the spell you think your character would like. Or choosing a sniper headset for a level you know you would need it in, rather than wearing what you think looks better. The list could go on and on. The point is that you cannot get mad at Bioware because you decided the auto win option was more important than role-playing your character.  

Modifié par squee913, 23 avril 2011 - 11:26 .

[Dave666]

squee913 wrote...

Dave666 wrote...

squee913 wrote...

SalsaDMA wrote...

Mesina2 wrote...

^How it ruined roleplaying?

When you start picking choices, not because of how your character would react, but because you need a certain amount of points that choice gives you, then you are metagaming, not roleplaying.

That's what the paragon/renegade system fudged up in ME2.

If you can't see it's an issue that the game limits your character from making choices because of a virtual point system, then I don't know how else to explain to you what roleplaying and metagaming has of issues with each other.

That sounds like a self control issue on the fault of the player, not Bioware. No one is forcing you to choose one type of answer just to get points. If you want to role play than just select the option you want and ignore the color. Don't get mad at Bioware because you can't keep from pushing the shiny red button.

It's like saying that it is Bioware's fault that I did not choose to level up overload becasue I know I will need incinerate more in a later level.

Not sure how appropriate that analogy is Squee, after that level that you needed Incinerate for you could then reset your points. This can't be done with Paragon and Renegade points. Perhaps if after sacrificing those points to level Incinerate if you could then never change it and you were stuck with a low level of Overload for the rest of the game, then it might be a good analogy.

You got me there. It does not change the point, however, since I could just use the leveling system of ME1. Or I could say it is like spending points in DAO to get a certain spell you will need later, instead of the spell you think your character would like. Or choosing a sniper headset for a level you know you would need it in, rather than wearing what you think looks better. The list could go on and on. The point is that you cannot get mad at Bioware because you decided the auto win option was more important than role-playing your character.  

Don't get me wrong, I wasn't attacking you there, just your little analogy.  What truly baffles me is why they changed from the system from ME:1, it worked perfectly well, why change something that works?  If you wanted to make sure you could achieve certain speech checks, then all you had to do was spend points, if you weren't bothered about that aspect you could spend points in combat abilities.

[squee913]

Dave666 wrote...

squee913 wrote...

Dave666 wrote...

squee913 wrote...

SalsaDMA wrote...

Mesina2 wrote...

^How it ruined roleplaying?

When you start picking choices, not because of how your character would react, but because you need a certain amount of points that choice gives you, then you are metagaming, not roleplaying.

That's what the paragon/renegade system fudged up in ME2.

If you can't see it's an issue that the game limits your character from making choices because of a virtual point system, then I don't know how else to explain to you what roleplaying and metagaming has of issues with each other.

That sounds like a self control issue on the fault of the player, not Bioware. No one is forcing you to choose one type of answer just to get points. If you want to role play than just select the option you want and ignore the color. Don't get mad at Bioware because you can't keep from pushing the shiny red button.

It's like saying that it is Bioware's fault that I did not choose to level up overload becasue I know I will need incinerate more in a later level.

Not sure how appropriate that analogy is Squee, after that level that you needed Incinerate for you could then reset your points. This can't be done with Paragon and Renegade points. Perhaps if after sacrificing those points to level Incinerate if you could then never change it and you were stuck with a low level of Overload for the rest of the game, then it might be a good analogy.

You got me there. It does not change the point, however, since I could just use the leveling system of ME1. Or I could say it is like spending points in DAO to get a certain spell you will need later, instead of the spell you think your character would like. Or choosing a sniper headset for a level you know you would need it in, rather than wearing what you think looks better. The list could go on and on. The point is that you cannot get mad at Bioware because you decided the auto win option was more important than role-playing your character.  

Don't get me wrong, I wasn't attacking you there, just your little analogy.  What truly baffles me is why they changed from the system from ME:1, it worked perfectly well, why change something that works?  If you wanted to make sure you could achieve certain speech checks, then all you had to do was spend points, if you weren't bothered about that aspect you could spend points in combat abilities.

Not really... If I remember correctly, you still had to have a certain paragon level in order to be able to build your charm up. Other wise you would only be able to go so high. Same for Renegade. So you still had to do paragon things if you wanted to increase your charm all the way. ME2 just simplified the system.  I could be wrong on this… but I think that was how it worked.

[Seboist]

Dave666 wrote...

squee913 wrote...

Dave666 wrote...

squee913 wrote...

SalsaDMA wrote...

Mesina2 wrote...

^How it ruined roleplaying?

When you start picking choices, not because of how your character would react, but because you need a certain amount of points that choice gives you, then you are metagaming, not roleplaying.

That's what the paragon/renegade system fudged up in ME2.

If you can't see it's an issue that the game limits your character from making choices because of a virtual point system, then I don't know how else to explain to you what roleplaying and metagaming has of issues with each other.

That sounds like a self control issue on the fault of the player, not Bioware. No one is forcing you to choose one type of answer just to get points. If you want to role play than just select the option you want and ignore the color. Don't get mad at Bioware because you can't keep from pushing the shiny red button.

It's like saying that it is Bioware's fault that I did not choose to level up overload becasue I know I will need incinerate more in a later level.

Not sure how appropriate that analogy is Squee, after that level that you needed Incinerate for you could then reset your points. This can't be done with Paragon and Renegade points. Perhaps if after sacrificing those points to level Incinerate if you could then never change it and you were stuck with a low level of Overload for the rest of the game, then it might be a good analogy.

You got me there. It does not change the point, however, since I could just use the leveling system of ME1. Or I could say it is like spending points in DAO to get a certain spell you will need later, instead of the spell you think your character would like. Or choosing a sniper headset for a level you know you would need it in, rather than wearing what you think looks better. The list could go on and on. The point is that you cannot get mad at Bioware because you decided the auto win option was more important than role-playing your character.  

Don't get me wrong, I wasn't attacking you there, just your little analogy.  What truly baffles me is why they changed from the system from ME:1, it worked perfectly well, why change something that works?  If you wanted to make sure you could achieve certain speech checks, then all you had to do was spend points, if you weren't bothered about that aspect you could spend points in combat abilities.

The ME1 point system is just as bad. Instead of meta-gaming outside of the game, now it's giving you the means of doing it within the gameplay.

Why should the player be forced to kill Ethan Jeong just because he didn't spend points on an ability that doesn't help him at all during combat? it doesn't make sense to me.

[didymos1120]

squee913 wrote...
Not really... If I remember correctly, you still had to have a certain paragon level in order to be able to build your charm up. Other wise you would only be able to go so high. Same for Renegade. So you still had to do paragon things if you wanted to increase your charm all the way. ME2 just simplified the system.  I could be wrong on this… but I think that was how it worked.

Yeah, but ME1 also had three things going on with that that have no real equivalent in ME2: 

1. When you hit a certain Paragon/Renegade level, you also got a free point in Charm/Intimidate
2. Spectre-ization gave a free point in both skills
3. Your skills carried over to an NG+

You could, were you willing, never spend a point and have max Charm and Intimidate and end up able to freely choose any response in any conversation.

[Dave666]

didymos1120 wrote...

squee913 wrote...
Not really... If I remember correctly, you still had to have a certain paragon level in order to be able to build your charm up. Other wise you would only be able to go so high. Same for Renegade. So you still had to do paragon things if you wanted to increase your charm all the way. ME2 just simplified the system.  I could be wrong on this… but I think that was how it worked.

Yeah, but ME1 also had three things going on with that that have no real equivalent in ME2: 

1. When you hit a certain Paragon/Renegade level, you also got a free point in Charm/Intimidate
2. Spectre-ization gave a free point in both skills
3. Your skills carried over to an NG+

You could, were you willing, never spend a point and have max Charm and Intimidate and end up able to freely choose any response in any conversation.

Nicely summed up Didy, saved me typing it. 

[Dave666]

Seboist wrote...

Dave666 wrote...

squee913 wrote...

Dave666 wrote...

squee913 wrote...

SalsaDMA wrote...

Mesina2 wrote...

^How it ruined roleplaying?

When you start picking choices, not because of how your character would react, but because you need a certain amount of points that choice gives you, then you are metagaming, not roleplaying.

That's what the paragon/renegade system fudged up in ME2.

If you can't see it's an issue that the game limits your character from making choices because of a virtual point system, then I don't know how else to explain to you what roleplaying and metagaming has of issues with each other.

That sounds like a self control issue on the fault of the player, not Bioware. No one is forcing you to choose one type of answer just to get points. If you want to role play than just select the option you want and ignore the color. Don't get mad at Bioware because you can't keep from pushing the shiny red button.

It's like saying that it is Bioware's fault that I did not choose to level up overload becasue I know I will need incinerate more in a later level.

Not sure how appropriate that analogy is Squee, after that level that you needed Incinerate for you could then reset your points. This can't be done with Paragon and Renegade points. Perhaps if after sacrificing those points to level Incinerate if you could then never change it and you were stuck with a low level of Overload for the rest of the game, then it might be a good analogy.

You got me there. It does not change the point, however, since I could just use the leveling system of ME1. Or I could say it is like spending points in DAO to get a certain spell you will need later, instead of the spell you think your character would like. Or choosing a sniper headset for a level you know you would need it in, rather than wearing what you think looks better. The list could go on and on. The point is that you cannot get mad at Bioware because you decided the auto win option was more important than role-playing your character.  

Don't get me wrong, I wasn't attacking you there, just your little analogy.  What truly baffles me is why they changed from the system from ME:1, it worked perfectly well, why change something that works?  If you wanted to make sure you could achieve certain speech checks, then all you had to do was spend points, if you weren't bothered about that aspect you could spend points in combat abilities.

The ME1 point system is just as bad. Instead of meta-gaming outside of the game, now it's giving you the means of doing it within the gameplay.

Why should the player be forced to kill Ethan Jeong just because he didn't spend points on an ability that doesn't help him at all during combat? it doesn't make sense to me.

Why should Shepard be unable to talk Miranda and Jack down simply because Shepard didn't throw a merc out of a window?

[Seboist]

Dave666 wrote...

Seboist wrote...

Dave666 wrote...

squee913 wrote...

Dave666 wrote...

squee913 wrote...

SalsaDMA wrote...

Mesina2 wrote...

^How it ruined roleplaying?

When you start picking choices, not because of how your character would react, but because you need a certain amount of points that choice gives you, then you are metagaming, not roleplaying.

That's what the paragon/renegade system fudged up in ME2.

If you can't see it's an issue that the game limits your character from making choices because of a virtual point system, then I don't know how else to explain to you what roleplaying and metagaming has of issues with each other.

That sounds like a self control issue on the fault of the player, not Bioware. No one is forcing you to choose one type of answer just to get points. If you want to role play than just select the option you want and ignore the color. Don't get mad at Bioware because you can't keep from pushing the shiny red button.

It's like saying that it is Bioware's fault that I did not choose to level up overload becasue I know I will need incinerate more in a later level.

Not sure how appropriate that analogy is Squee, after that level that you needed Incinerate for you could then reset your points. This can't be done with Paragon and Renegade points. Perhaps if after sacrificing those points to level Incinerate if you could then never change it and you were stuck with a low level of Overload for the rest of the game, then it might be a good analogy.

You got me there. It does not change the point, however, since I could just use the leveling system of ME1. Or I could say it is like spending points in DAO to get a certain spell you will need later, instead of the spell you think your character would like. Or choosing a sniper headset for a level you know you would need it in, rather than wearing what you think looks better. The list could go on and on. The point is that you cannot get mad at Bioware because you decided the auto win option was more important than role-playing your character.  

Don't get me wrong, I wasn't attacking you there, just your little analogy.  What truly baffles me is why they changed from the system from ME:1, it worked perfectly well, why change something that works?  If you wanted to make sure you could achieve certain speech checks, then all you had to do was spend points, if you weren't bothered about that aspect you could spend points in combat abilities.

The ME1 point system is just as bad. Instead of meta-gaming outside of the game, now it's giving you the means of doing it within the gameplay.

Why should the player be forced to kill Ethan Jeong just because he didn't spend points on an ability that doesn't help him at all during combat? it doesn't make sense to me.

Why should Shepard be unable to talk Miranda and Jack down simply because Shepard didn't throw a merc out of a window?

Uh, I'm against both systems here. I agree it's silly for Shep not to be able to do that on the count of (in)action.

[squee913]

didymos1120 wrote...

squee913 wrote...
Not really... If I remember correctly, you still had to have a certain paragon level in order to be able to build your charm up. Other wise you would only be able to go so high. Same for Renegade. So you still had to do paragon things if you wanted to increase your charm all the way. ME2 just simplified the system.  I could be wrong on this… but I think that was how it worked.

Yeah, but ME1 also had three things going on with that that have no real equivalent in ME2: 

1. When you hit a certain Paragon/Renegade level, you also got a free point in Charm/Intimidate
2. Spectre-ization gave a free point in both skills
3. Your skills carried over to an NG+

You could, were you willing, never spend a point and have max Charm and Intimidate and end up able to freely choose any response in any conversation.

Yeesh! How many playthoughs would that take?  I see your argument, but none of it disproves the original point of getting made at Bioware for deciding the get out of jail free card was more important than role playing.

[squee913]

Seboist wrote...

The ME1 point system is just as bad. Instead of meta-gaming outside of the game, now it's giving you the means of doing it within the gameplay.

Why should the player be forced to kill Ethan Jeong just because he didn't spend points on an ability that doesn't help him at all during combat? it doesn't make sense to me.

Because without spending the points to build up your ability to talk people down, Shepard saw no other option than to shoot them. This is not a Mass Effect only mechanic. Any RPG that uses a persuasion system has these kind of scenarios.

[Vormaerin]

Well, I'd argue that the whole loyalty mechanic is silly and metagamey. And that its fairly stupid that you even can convince Jack and Miranda to work together effectively (or Tali and Legion).

Its just another example of the watered down sense of consequences that tends to happen in games. There's not enough choices that really change things. Even not having Miranda's loyalty because I didn't have the paragon points didn't change anything as far as I can tell. I still got the "No one left behind" outcome.

[Seboist]

squee913 wrote...

Seboist wrote...

The ME1 point system is just as bad. Instead of meta-gaming outside of the game, now it's giving you the means of doing it within the gameplay.

Why should the player be forced to kill Ethan Jeong just because he didn't spend points on an ability that doesn't help him at all during combat? it doesn't make sense to me.

Because without spending the points to build up your ability to talk people down, Shepard saw no other option than to shoot them. This is not a Mass Effect only mechanic. Any RPG that uses a persuasion system has these kind of scenarios.

It's ridicoulous that a Commanding Officer who's past exploits include saving the citadel needs some magical points in order to do a "I win" dialogue action.

If Shepard can't convince two subordinates that they should stop fighting and concentrate on the mission at hand, then frankly he needs to be relieved of command.

[Dave666]

squee913 wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...

squee913 wrote...
Not really... If I remember correctly, you still had to have a certain paragon level in order to be able to build your charm up. Other wise you would only be able to go so high. Same for Renegade. So you still had to do paragon things if you wanted to increase your charm all the way. ME2 just simplified the system. I could be wrong on this… but I think that was how it worked.

Yeah, but ME1 also had three things going on with that that have no real equivalent in ME2:

1. When you hit a certain Paragon/Renegade level, you also got a free point in Charm/Intimidate
2. Spectre-ization gave a free point in both skills
3. Your skills carried over to an NG+

You could, were you willing, never spend a point and have max Charm and Intimidate and end up able to freely choose any response in any conversation.

Yeesh! How many playthoughs would that take? I see your argument, but none of it disproves the original point of getting made at Bioware for deciding the get out of jail free card was more important than role playing.

It takes a grand total of three playthroughs to max them, but remember that this is completely optional, you could still choose at any time to spend those points. It was a roleplaying choice in ME:1 that we were denied in ME:2. I could live with it if the ME:1 system didn't work, but the thing is, it did.

[Dave666]

Seboist wrote...

squee913 wrote...

Seboist wrote...

The ME1 point system is just as bad. Instead of meta-gaming outside of the game, now it's giving you the means of doing it within the gameplay.

Why should the player be forced to kill Ethan Jeong just because he didn't spend points on an ability that doesn't help him at all during combat? it doesn't make sense to me.

Because without spending the points to build up your ability to talk people down, Shepard saw no other option than to shoot them. This is not a Mass Effect only mechanic. Any RPG that uses a persuasion system has these kind of scenarios.

It's ridicoulous that a Commanding Officer who's past exploits include saving the citadel needs some magical points in order to do a "I win" dialogue action.

If Shepard can't convince two subordinates that they should stop fighting and concentrate on the mission at hand, then frankly he needs to be relieved of command.

Those 'magical points'?  They're supposed to represent the character working on a skill off screen.  Persuasion and Intimidate being practiced on the crew etc, its perfectly possible to improve ones communication skills you know. (without throwing people out of windows, I might add).

Modifié par Dave666, 24 avril 2011 - 12:05 .

[Seboist]

Dave666 wrote...

Seboist wrote...

squee913 wrote...

Seboist wrote...

The ME1 point system is just as bad. Instead of meta-gaming outside of the game, now it's giving you the means of doing it within the gameplay.

Why should the player be forced to kill Ethan Jeong just because he didn't spend points on an ability that doesn't help him at all during combat? it doesn't make sense to me.

Because without spending the points to build up your ability to talk people down, Shepard saw no other option than to shoot them. This is not a Mass Effect only mechanic. Any RPG that uses a persuasion system has these kind of scenarios.

It's ridicoulous that a Commanding Officer who's past exploits include saving the citadel needs some magical points in order to do a "I win" dialogue action.

If Shepard can't convince two subordinates that they should stop fighting and concentrate on the mission at hand, then frankly he needs to be relieved of command.

Those 'magical points'?  They're supposed to represent the character working on a skill off screen.  Persuasion and Intimidate being practiced on the crew etc, its perfectly possible to improve ones communication skills you know. (without throwing people out of windows, I might add).

There's never any indicator in the story that Shepard becomes better using a sniper rifle or that Samara all of a sudden has better combat proficiency for dispposing a few mercs over her hundreds of years of combat experience.

Like TIM says in one part Shepard is a "natural leader" and to see him stumbling around because he didn't use magic points makes him look inept and weak(like how my Shepard looked when she couldn't make a choice with Morinth).

[Dave666]

Seboist wrote...

Dave666 wrote...

Seboist wrote...

squee913 wrote...

Seboist wrote...

The ME1 point system is just as bad. Instead of meta-gaming outside of the game, now it's giving you the means of doing it within the gameplay.

Why should the player be forced to kill Ethan Jeong just because he didn't spend points on an ability that doesn't help him at all during combat? it doesn't make sense to me.

Because without spending the points to build up your ability to talk people down, Shepard saw no other option than to shoot them. This is not a Mass Effect only mechanic. Any RPG that uses a persuasion system has these kind of scenarios.

It's ridicoulous that a Commanding Officer who's past exploits include saving the citadel needs some magical points in order to do a "I win" dialogue action.

If Shepard can't convince two subordinates that they should stop fighting and concentrate on the mission at hand, then frankly he needs to be relieved of command.

Those 'magical points'?  They're supposed to represent the character working on a skill off screen.  Persuasion and Intimidate being practiced on the crew etc, its perfectly possible to improve ones communication skills you know. (without throwing people out of windows, I might add).

There's never any indicator in the story that Shepard becomes better using a sniper rifle or that Samara all of a sudden has better combat proficiency for dispposing a few mercs over her hundreds of years of combat experience.

Like TIM says in one part Shepard is a "natural leader" and to see him stumbling around because he didn't use magic points makes him look inept and weak(like how my Shepard looked when she couldn't make a choice with Morinth).

I was talking about the ME:1 system.

[Vormaerin]

Seboist wrote...

If Shepard can't convince two subordinates that they should stop fighting and concentrate on the mission at hand, then frankly he needs to be relieved of command.

Dude, he can tell them to shut up and get back to work no matter what.  And they do.  You just lose the magic loyalty armor in the final scene for one of the characters.   Which may or may not matter. 

Being able to force them to work together and make them both like it is a different order of magnitude.

[didymos1120]

Vormaerin wrote...

Being able to force them to work together and make them both like it is a different order of magnitude.

But that's not what happens.  They agree to put it aside for now, and you don't have either pissed off at you. But Jack and Miranda do not become pals.  Not remotely. 

Modifié par didymos1120, 24 avril 2011 - 12:42 .

[Vormaerin]

I didn't say you made them like each other. I said you made them both still happy about the decision. That's pretty extreme right there. Miranda or Jack being upset is hardly some major disaster that reflects on Shepard's incompetence. Somehow never making anyone upset is practically superhuman and, frankly, silly.