541 réponses à ce sujet

[Bryy_Miller]

didymos1120 wrote...

ExtremeOne wrote...

Bioware is rebooting ME franchise with ME 3 plain and simple .

"Reboot" does not mean "Story elements I personally don't like are included".

It's also not a reboot if it continues the story from the first two titles. A trilogy can't just reboot itself in the middle. Otherwise, it's not one big story.

Now, perhaps you mean "retconning". Which would make more sense, but is still not proven to be the case.

[ExtremeOne]

Bryy_Miller wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...

ExtremeOne wrote...

Bioware is rebooting ME franchise with ME 3 plain and simple .

"Reboot" does not mean "Story elements I personally don't like are included".

It's also not a reboot if it continues the story from the first two titles. A trilogy can't just reboot itself in the middle. Otherwise, it's not one big story.

Now, perhaps you mean "retconning". Which would make more sense, but is still not proven to be the case.

  





It is a retcon unless at E3 they will show us what our choices mean in 3 . 

[Centauri2002]

ExtremeOne wrote...

It is a retcon unless at E3 they will show us what our choices mean in 3 . 

People throw that term around a lot on this forum, I've noticed.

They're not going to show us how our choices affect ME3 at E3. That would seriously spoil the surprises when playing it. I don't want to see that until it's actually happening to my Shepard. They may hint, but we're never going to see it until the game is released.

Why don't you just wait and see, instead of jumping to your own conlusions? Or do you want them to release all information on the game so you can know whether to spend money or not? 

[Bryy_Miller]

ExtremeOne wrote...

Bryy_Miller wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...

ExtremeOne wrote...

Bioware is rebooting ME franchise with ME 3 plain and simple .

"Reboot" does not mean "Story elements I personally don't like are included".

It's also not a reboot if it continues the story from the first two titles. A trilogy can't just reboot itself in the middle. Otherwise, it's not one big story.

Now, perhaps you mean "retconning". Which would make more sense, but is still not proven to be the case.

  

It is a retcon unless at E3 they will show us what our choices mean in 3 . 

Okay. So you meant retcon.

You should probably say what you actually mean next time.

And that's a pretty tall order: "they have to reveal the plot or else it's a bad game!". You're basically setting yourself up to be disappointed. 

The fact of the matter is this: you read a preview of a preview and now you're upset because it didn't tell you everything, and you're acting like your assumptions are fact. 

Just because you did not feel the imported save data had any impact (which it did, just to be clear) does not mean that they didn't. 

You're saying that it's BioWare's fault for not not adhearing to your personal idea of what their game should be, when really, it's your fault for getting upset in the first place. You can't fault an author for writing a book you didn't like. 

You also say that you understand that a video game has limitations and restrictions, when you clearly don't if you want the game to change drastically for every single person's individual decision. Mass Effect 3 simply can't start differently if you spared the Base. It can't avoid the "Cerberus Wants To Kill You" plot. It can't do anything to the main plotarc that needs to happen.

[The BS Police]

ExtremeOne wrote...
It is a retcon unless at E3 they will show us what our choices mean in 3 . 

No it isn't because...

1. Bioware is not going to spoil the games storyline at E3.

and

2. Cerberus being an antagonist is not a retcon.

[ExtremeOne]

Bryy_Miller wrote...

ExtremeOne wrote...

Bryy_Miller wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...

ExtremeOne wrote...

Bioware is rebooting ME franchise with ME 3 plain and simple .

"Reboot" does not mean "Story elements I personally don't like are included".

It's also not a reboot if it continues the story from the first two titles. A trilogy can't just reboot itself in the middle. Otherwise, it's not one big story.

Now, perhaps you mean "retconning". Which would make more sense, but is still not proven to be the case.

  

It is a retcon unless at E3 they will show us what our choices mean in 3 . 

Okay. So you meant retcon.

You should probably say what you actually mean next time.

And that's a pretty tall order: "they have to reveal the plot or else it's a bad game!". You're basically setting yourself up to be disappointed. 

The fact of the matter is this: you read a preview of a preview and now you're upset because it didn't tell you everything, and you're acting like your assumptions are fact. 

Just because you did not feel the imported save data had any impact (which it did, just to be clear) does not mean that they didn't. 

You're saying that it's BioWare's fault for not not adhearing to your personal idea of what their game should be, when really, it's your fault for getting upset in the first place. You can't fault an author for writing a book you didn't like. 

You also say that you understand that a video game has limitations and restrictions, when you clearly don't if you want the game to change drastically for every single person's individual decision. Mass Effect 3 simply can't start differently if you spared the Base. It can't avoid the "Cerberus Wants To Kill You" plot. It can't do anything to the main plotarc that needs to happen.

  




Thank you for the great feed back. and I will  

[CulturalGeekGirl]

ExtremeOne wrote...
rebooting

You keep on using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

[Last Vizard]

axmo1 wrote...

ExtremeOne wrote...

Bioware is rebooting ME franchise with ME 3 plain and simple . and they are not being straight with us and its bull sh*t

^Someone needs to write fanfic so that the story turns out the exact way they want.

As far as storytelling goes, like it's been stated at least 10-20 times so far, you're reading a preview and proclaiming doom.  Just because something doesn't make sense to you doesn't mean it is senseless to others, as is the case in any story. Especially if you have no clue whatsoever what the causes and reactions will be.

Also, as far as the choices you make, I think you severely overestimate the impact shepard can have (which is still pretty big). This isn't the sims, Shepard can't just control the whole world around him/her with his choices. If it was TIM's plan all along to betray you, would you seriously be able to talk him back to being your friend? Shepard isn't a jedi, they can't actually control the people around them, or their actions. Only influence them.

As for speculation:
Shepard knows a lot about cerberus, and TIM isn't the trusting sort. Why not just get rid of Shep if you think there's another way to stop the reapers? Also the fact that the SR2 has all kinds of databases on cerberus would be of great intrigue to the alliance. Hell, it could even be that he's been misinformed by, let's say Liara, that Shepard is actually going to spill all about Cerberus.

Am I right? Probably no way in hell. But lack of information tends to lead to assumptions, which are usually false, no?

so, have we established that ME 2 was a story reset and moved on to ME 3?
from a story sense it makes little sense that TIM would betray someone who is cooperating with him, i can understand some disstrust but hunting a valuable Asset, that seems a little much unless they rail road you through story into ME 3 story reset where everything you did in ME 2 goes out the window... saving the base no longer gives you an advantage against the Reapers and a means to advance human inerests, regardless of who is in charge.

I don't care as long as the story is solid... (Thermal clips aside) don't know about the example ME 2 story has set, ME 3 story is skittish Tombs.

[Centauri2002]

To me, it's not a huge surprise TIM has changed his tune in ME3. I never trusted him and always expected him to stab me in the back throughout ME2. Heck, he set Shepard's team up at one point but that seems to be forgotten because they continued working together after that. His motivations have always been his own and we've not been privy to them. Shepard is just another tool to him. What do you do with a tool once it has outlived its usefulness? You throw it away. Shepard is probably more trouble than she's worth by the time ME3 rolls around.

Modifié par centauri2002, 21 avril 2011 - 09:37 .

[Last Vizard]

Bryy_Miller wrote...

ExtremeOne wrote...

Bryy_Miller wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...

ExtremeOne wrote...

Bioware is rebooting ME franchise with ME 3 plain and simple .

"Reboot" does not mean "Story elements I personally don't like are included".

It's also not a reboot if it continues the story from the first two titles. A trilogy can't just reboot itself in the middle. Otherwise, it's not one big story.

Now, perhaps you mean "retconning". Which would make more sense, but is still not proven to be the case.

  

It is a retcon unless at E3 they will show us what our choices mean in 3 . 

Okay. So you meant retcon.

You should probably say what you actually mean next time.

And that's a pretty tall order: "they have to reveal the plot or else it's a bad game!". You're basically setting yourself up to be disappointed. 

The fact of the matter is this: you read a preview of a preview and now you're upset because it didn't tell you everything, and you're acting like your assumptions are fact. 

Just because you did not feel the imported save data had any impact (which it did, just to be clear) does not mean that they didn't. 

You're saying that it's BioWare's fault for not not adhearing to your personal idea of what their game should be, when really, it's your fault for getting upset in the first place. You can't fault an author for writing a book you didn't like. 

You also say that you understand that a video game has limitations and restrictions, when you clearly don't if you want the game to change drastically for every single person's individual decision. Mass Effect 3 simply can't start differently if you spared the Base. It can't avoid the "Cerberus Wants To Kill You" plot. It can't do anything to the main plotarc that needs to happen.

Then you agree with me that BW lied and just does a reset on story, as a whole it continues but its just following a cannon and if you did something different then you get shafted...

[didymos1120]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

ExtremeOne wrote...
rebooting

You keep on using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

Misuse of fiction-related terms is something of an epidemic around here.  Seems like 90% of the time you see any of "plothole", "reboot", "retcon", "fanservice", or "character derailment" the person actually really means "I thought X sucked for idiosyncratic reason Y."

[Last Vizard]

centauri2002 wrote...

To me, it's not a huge surprise TIM has changed his tune in ME3. I never trusted him and always expected him to stab me in the back throughout ME2. Heck, he set Shepard's team up at one point but that seems to be forgotten because they continued working together after that. His motivations have always been his own and we've not been privy to them. Shepard is just another tool to him. What do you do with a tool once it has outlived its usefulness? You throw it away. Shepard is probably more trouble than she's worth by the time ME3 rolls around.

Maybe for the cannon, but your talking like all Sheps think Cerberus is wrong, i think history vindicates organisations like TIM's.  You may have taken every chance to turn on TIM but my Shep didn't so this tool is still usefull in advancing TIM's goals (Humanity will benifit too).

the story will just rail road the player into a stupid situation where no matter what TIM will need to betray you.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

.

ExtremeOne wrote...
retcon

Also this one. Ok, I'm not just going to be overly simplistic here, so let me define some terms:

Reboot: restarting a series from scratch by completely discarding all backstory and cannon. While we may be able to make some guesses about a character from looking at past incarnations, this is an entirely new world with new rules and new history. Example: the 1966 Batman movie paints Batman as a cartoonish figure of fun. The 1989 movie is a "reboot" of the franchise to make it darker. Thus, the events of Batman 1966 are not assumed to have happened if one watches Batman 1989, though the main character is the same and has roughly the same origin story.

ME Equivalent Example: If ME3 was about Shepard becoming a Spectre again, meeting his crew for the first time, or if it presented a radically different vision of who Commander Shepard was, while directly contradicting and rewriting previous history.

Retcon: the revision of history so that an occurrence that was explicitly presented as fact did not occur. The best example of this is in the classic TV Show Dallas. In the show, Patrick Duffy's character Bobby was hit by a car and killed. A year later, it was revealed that him being hit in the car and killed was just a dream another character had, and did not, in fact, actually happen.

ME Equivalent Example: If, in ME3, everyone were to talk about you taking an alliance ship to blow up the collector base, and you previously working for Cerberus is not only never mentioned, but explicitly contradicted.

Now I'd like to introduce a new term to the discussion: 

Plot Twist: when the narrative of a work of fiction suddenly goes differently than might have been predicted from evidence gathered so far. If a character's friend betrays them, or their seemingly secure home base is invaded, this can be considered a plot twist. It is up to the storyteller to give adequate justification as to why this twist occurred, though often this information is not revealed until later in the story. Plot twists require more justification than expected elements, but this will often take the form of a third act reveal.

I'll just... leave that there...

[JeffZero]

I'm still stung by that whole Brutus betrayal.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

JeffZero wrote...

I'm still stung by that whole Brutus betrayal.

THEY. WERE. BEST. FRIENDS. Ugh Shakespeare. His writing has really gone downhill since Richard III, you guys. Also, history can't write its way out of a paper bag.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 21 avril 2011 - 09:59 .

[JeffZero]

Hah, that just made my night. Well done.

I used to be a big Shakespeare fan but ever since he got famous he's been a shadow of his former self. He sold his soul, he did.

[The BS Police]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

JeffZero wrote...

I'm still stung by that whole Brutus betrayal.

THEY. WERE. BEST. FRIENDS. Ugh Shakespeare. His writing has really gone downhill since Richard III, you guys. Also, history can't write its way out of a paper bag.

Do you remember when Germany invaded Russia? Like OMG that plot twist was such a lame excuse to make Hitler look like a bad guy!

Modifié par The BS Police, 21 avril 2011 - 10:03 .

[Last Vizard]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

.

ExtremeOne wrote...
retcon

Also this one. Ok, I'm not just going to be overly simplistic here, so let me define some terms:

Reboot: restarting a series from scratch by completely discarding all backstory and cannon. While we may be able to make some guesses about a character from looking at past incarnations, this is an entirely new world with new rules and new history. Example: the 1966 Batman movie paints Batman as a cartoonish figure of fun. The 1989 movie is a "reboot" of the franchise to make it darker. Thus, the events of Batman 1966 are not assumed to have happened if one watches Batman 1989, though the main character is the same and has roughly the same origin story.

ME Equivalent Example: If ME3 was about Shepard becoming a Spectre again, meeting his crew for the first time, or if it presented a radically different vision of who Commander Shepard was, while directly contradicting and rewriting previous history.

Retcon: the revision of history so that an occurrence that was explicitly presented as fact did not occur. The best example of this is in the classic TV Show Dallas. In the show, Patrick Duffy's character Bobby was hit by a car and killed. A year later, it was revealed that him being hit in the car and killed was just a dream another character had, and did not, in fact, actually happen.

ME Equivalent Example: If, in ME3, everyone were to talk about you taking an alliance ship to blow up the collector base, and you previously working for Cerberus is not only never mentioned, but explicitly contradicted.

Now I'd like to introduce a new term to the discussion: 

Plot Twist: when the narrative of a work of fiction suddenly goes differently than might have been predicted from evidence gathered so far. If a character's friend betrays them, or their seemingly secure home base is invaded, this can be considered a plot twist. It is up to the storyteller to give adequate justification as to why this twist occurred, though often this information is not revealed until later in the story. Plot twists require more justification than expected elements, but this will often take the form of a third act reveal.

I'll just... leave that there...

Retroactive continuity (often shortened to retcon[1]) refers to the alteration of previously established facts in a literary work.[2] Retcons may be carried out for a variety of reasons, such as to accommodate sequels or further derivative works in the same series, to reintroduce popular characters, to resolve chronological issues, to reboot a familiar series for modern audiences, or to simplify an excessively complex continuity structure.
Retcons are common in pulp fiction, especially comic books published by long-established houses such as DC, Marvel and leading manga publishers. The long history of popular titles and the plurality of writers who contribute stories can often create situations that demand clarification or revision of exposition. Retcons appear as well in soap operas, serial drama, movie sequels, professional wrestling, video games, radio series, and other kinds of serial fiction.

It starts off with the writter and rest of BW team talking about how they are going to make ME 3 if all choices matter, one guy stands up and says:
D!ck  : "we don't have the time to do that"
Liar   : "why don't we just tell them their choices matter then do some fan survice to cover up the fact that we cant do it?"
Writer:  "so, we'll do another reset style where we rail road the player into a position where they have to follow the narrow cannon story?"
D!ck  : "yeah"
Liar  :  "no" *while nodding*

Modifié par Last Vizard, 21 avril 2011 - 10:05 .

[ExtremeOne]

When a developer has to do 2 retcons in a franchise then you know something is seriously wrong with the franchise's story . ME 1 had one story and it was Cerberus was bad. ME 2 Cerberus is all about saving humanity and destroying the reapers and collectors so they bring back Shepard and destroy the collectors . Now in ME 3 its as if 2 never happened or they are retconing the series again for what reason.

[JeffZero]

Just because you whistled past all the continuous references to Cerberus' less-than-kind activities strewn throughout ME2 doesn't mean they were out-and-out retconned out of existence.

Within an hour of meeting Jacob he talks about just how many practices the organization is responsible for that he doesn't agree with.

[ExtremeOne]

The BS Police wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

JeffZero wrote...

I'm still stung by that whole Brutus betrayal.

THEY. WERE. BEST. FRIENDS. Ugh Shakespeare. His writing has really gone downhill since Richard III, you guys. Also, history can't write its way out of a paper bag.

Do you remember when Germany invaded Russia? Like OMG that plot twist was such a lame excuse to make Hitler look like a bad guy!

  




at least Germany had a single goal in mind . hell Bioware has no idea what the story is in ME . Cerberus can not be made out to be the enemy in 3 when it flies right in the face of the story of 2 . Its a big fat retcon and they are just afraid to tell us  

[Centauri2002]

Last Vizard wrote...

centauri2002 wrote...

To me, it's not a huge surprise TIM has changed his tune in ME3. I never trusted him and always expected him to stab me in the back throughout ME2. Heck, he set Shepard's team up at one point but that seems to be forgotten because they continued working together after that. His motivations have always been his own and we've not been privy to them. Shepard is just another tool to him. What do you do with a tool once it has outlived its usefulness? You throw it away. Shepard is probably more trouble than she's worth by the time ME3 rolls around.

Maybe for the cannon, but your talking like all Sheps think Cerberus is wrong, i think history vindicates organisations like TIM's.  You may have taken every chance to turn on TIM but my Shep didn't so this tool is still usefull in advancing TIM's goals (Humanity will benifit too).

the story will just rail road the player into a stupid situation where no matter what TIM will need to betray you.

No I was talking from my perspective. Hence the use of I.

However, Cerberus was never a selfless organisation. Their acts in ME1 point them more towards terrorists than anything. And we're never made clear on TIM's motivations nor his actual goals. Just because he tells you he wants to use you as some iconic figure and has you running around the galaxy for him, doesn't mean he's going to want you around when his real plan goes into motion. You know he has something else planned, he's TIM! 

Besides, if you had something planned that Shepard may or may not agree with, would you want Shepard in the picture to spoil it for you? That's a risky variable.

My point is, TIM turning on you is something that can be explained in the story without too much trouble. If your Shepard chooses to believe he's best buds with TIM, then that's his prerogative. 

[JeffZero]

hell BW has no idea what the story is in ME.

None whatsoever. Not a clue. They just flip coins all day. Suuure.

[Centauri2002]

JeffZero wrote...

hell BW has no idea what the story is in ME.

None whatsoever. Not a clue. They just flip coins all day. Suuure.

 Aye, they couldn't possibly have had it planned out since the beginning. That's just plain silly.

[wulf3n]

The Mass Effect Retcon is a more insidious version. They don't out and out say "yeah, that never happened" They just carry on like it never did.