414 réponses à ce sujet

[KnightofPhoenix]

Deztyn wrote...

Sabariel wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Sabariel wrote...
Or maybe because you like Anders' toenail painting prowess

How would you even know? You didn't try it and would have to trust him in the first place to let him try.

He trusted me with his darkest secret so I trusted him with my bottle of Pink Blush nailpolish. My toenails look fabulous

Pfft.

I reject his nailpolish.

But he can provide an artistic expression from the fade itself!

Since Hawke is useless, she could at least have fabulous toe nails to compensate.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 19 avril 2011 - 05:54 .

[Sabariel]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Deztyn wrote...

Sabariel wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Sabariel wrote...
Or maybe because you like Anders' toenail painting prowess

How would you even know? You didn't try it and would have to trust him in the first place to let him try.

He trusted me with his darkest secret so I trusted him with my bottle of Pink Blush nailpolish. My toenails look fabulous

Pfft.

I reject his nailpolish.

But he can provide an artistic expression from the fade itself!

Since Hawke is useless, she could at least have fabulous toe nails to compensate.

My Hawke is a dude. His toenails are still fabulous though.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Eh, why not. Now I know what the Champion's been spending his time on for 3 years.

[Sabariel]

Painting his toenails and getting drunk with Fenris (not necessarily in that order). Yup. That sounds about right.

[Cutlass Jack]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

We do not have the choice iwth Anders nor a clear indication as to why he is useful. We only need his map.

I'm not sure I understand the complaint here. If all you want is his map, you can just get it and never use him. He just keeps running his clinic. Its not like he drops everything to go on a months long camping trip with you.

But you get pretty clear indicators as to why he's useful: He's a healing mage, he's a warden with deep roads familiarity, and he's got a powerful spirit within him. You learn all that in the process of getting the map.

The toenail painting is just a bonus for later.

[Huntress]

Crossroads_Wanderer wrote...

Isabela, really? She's pretty much responsible for the Qunari invasion and partially responsible for the deaths that ensued. Her hands are not clean.

Not one is innocent, well maybe the 15 year old boy by the docks? but he was traffiquing goods to the carta! well there you have it.

Oh and yes anders lives for ever!

Modifié par Huntress, 19 avril 2011 - 06:06 .

[Rifneno]

Deztyn wrote...

It could be avoided so easily. Just... don't have Anders blurt out how dangerous he is. That's all! Just don't spout crazy talk the second we meet! How hard is that?

To be fair, I don't think he explains it until after he hulks out because of Karl.  And after Hawke has seen that... well, letting him get by without explaining what the hell just happened would be an even bigger oddity.

Persephone wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

The DR is not forced on anyone.

Deep Roads. Not Dark Ritual.

I certainly agree with Anders about that.  "I hate the blighted Deep Roads."

Lithuasil wrote...
Considering he's twice your level at that point...   

Seriously though - the enemy numbers are pure gameplay - in close quarters, any seasoned fighter poses a risk, no matter how good you are. And Hawke maybe didn't bring Varric, has no way of knowing petrice motives (given she's not exactly outspoken). 
And I'm not denying it *could* work. But it's still a massive risk, with NO potential gain for Hawke, so why would anyone do it?

A wise err--thing once said of a similar Bioware PC that he orders his group into suicidal situations an average of 2.73 times daily. Rounding down.

Deztyn wrote...

Eh. We know going in that we're tracking down an assassin to recruit him for our mission. He's also optional. Jack was intended to be optional originally, but really doesn't work because she ended up being a forced recruitment.

Still Mass Effect and Origins both gave you good RP reasons to take on a bunch of people you'd want no part of otherwise. When the world, or universe is about to go to hell you take whatever help you can get.

There's no compelling reason to ignore Anders crazy, much less to become his new BFF.

What?  Jack is crazier than Anders.  When they were doing the "loyalist, assassin, ect." bit Jack was literally called "the psychopath."  And her murderous rage is directed at the organization you're working for.  It's not just a matter of not liking the person, it's a matter of trusting them not to kill the rest of the crew in their sleep.  IMO plot armor is the only reason Jack never goes on a rampage aboard the Normandy.

I mean, Anders not being optional is definitely a bad thing not to make optional, but Jack was way worse.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

We do not have the choice iwth Anders nor a clear indication as to why he is useful. We only need his map.

I'm not sure I understand the complaint here. If all you want is his map, you can just get it and never use him. He just keeps running his clinic. Its not like he drops everything to go on a months long camping trip with you.

But you get pretty clear indicators as to why he's useful: He's a healing mage, he's a warden with deep roads familiarity, and he's got a powerful spirit within him. You learn all that in the process of getting the map.

He's also a potential abomination, which makes him potentially more dangerous than useful.

The complaint is that we can't do anything about it. We can't inform the Templars for instance, even if Hawke is very pro-Templar. We are forced to ignore his condition. Since Anders is crucial to the plot, us doing that would make Anders disapear, only to reapear at the end (like Morrigan re-appears for the DR if kicked out). 

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 19 avril 2011 - 06:08 .

[Joy Divison]

Benchmark wrote...

I find it very frustrating when people use the American Revolutionary war or the French Revolutionary war as an excuse for Anders. Neither of the groups that started those revolutions supported the deaths of civilian or religious persons.

In both actual historical revolutions, the revolutionaries were the common people. Not some extremely small subgroup that decided killing anyone but their own group was ok. Neither of the two stated revolutions started with a heinous violent act by the revolutionaries. They started with a debate that gained consensus from a majority of the populations.

Please quit trying to incorrectly use them as parallels.

You never learned about the French Revolution did you?

[Cutlass Jack]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

He's also a potential abomination, which makes him potentially more dangerous than useful.

The complaint is that we can't do anything about it. We can't inform the Templars for instance, even if Hawke is very pro-Templar. We are forced to ignore his condition. Since Anders is crucial to the plot, us doing that would make Anders disapear, only to reapear at the end (like Morrigan re-appears for the DR if kicked out). 

Thats an entirely different complaint than being forced to recruit him. But not one I disagree with. However every computer rpg ever made you could make a similar complaint about. Eventually there will be something you wish you could do that you cannot.

Just the nature of things. For example, I'm still angry with NWN2 for forcing Ammon Jerro into my group and not letting me kill him. Not once, but twice. (The second time I'm convinced they were just messing with me) At least in Anders case I could just ignore him if I hated him, then kill him when the plot forced him to show up.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Cutlass Jack wrote...
 At least in Anders case I could just ignore him if I hated him, then kill him when the plot forced him to show up.

Not really. Because he not only shows up at your house, as if he is welcome, but apparently takes the liberty of shoving his manifesto everywhere in your property. Why would a very pro-Templar Hawke tolerate that?

[Cutlass Jack]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Not really. Because he not only shows up at your house, as if he is welcome, but apparently takes the liberty of shoving his manifesto everywhere in your property. Why would a very pro-Templar Hawke tolerate that?

I can't control who my dog makes friends with.
(Which should be the only time he comes over uninvited if you're ignoring him)

[Deztyn]

Rifneno wrote...

Deztyn wrote...

It could be avoided so easily. Just... don't have Anders blurt out how dangerous he is. That's all! Just don't spout crazy talk the second we meet! How hard is that?

To be fair, I don't think he explains it until after he hulks out because of Karl.  And after Hawke has seen that... well, letting him get by without explaining what the hell just happened would be an even bigger oddity.

He could have been more vague. He could have lied. Anders lies about other things, so why be honest about just how dangerous and unstable he is?

And really, it's not about what Anders does, it's about what the writing makes Hawke do in response. Nothing. It's ignored.

Deztyn wrote...

Eh. We know going in that we're tracking down an assassin to recruit him for our mission. He's also optional. Jack was intended to be optional originally, but really doesn't work because she ended up being a forced recruitment.

Still Mass Effect and Origins both gave you good RP reasons to take on a bunch of people you'd want no part of otherwise. When the world, or universe is about to go to hell you take whatever help you can get.

There's no compelling reason to ignore Anders crazy, much less to become his new BFF.

What?  Jack is crazier than Anders.  When they were doing the "loyalist, assassin, ect." bit Jack was literally called "the psychopath."  And her murderous rage is directed at the organization you're working for.  It's not just a matter of not liking the person, it's a matter of trusting them not to kill the rest of the crew in their sleep.  IMO plot armor is the only reason Jack never goes on a rampage aboard the Normandy.

I mean, Anders not being optional is definitely a bad thing not to make optional, but Jack was way worse.

Well I did say that Jack doesn't really work.

[Deztyn]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Cutlass Jack wrote...
 At least in Anders case I could just ignore him if I hated him, then kill him when the plot forced him to show up.

Not really. Because he not only shows up at your house, as if he is welcome, but apparently takes the liberty of shoving his manifesto everywhere in your property. Why would a very pro-Templar Hawke tolerate that?

This.

It's the same with Merrill.

The player doesn't even have the luxury of ignoring them and pretending they're not involved. They still get treated as close companions by the game.

[nos_astra]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

PsychoBlonde wrote...
 If a man has become a rabid beast beyond all shadow of a doubt, you don't lobotomize him and turn him into a slave. That's monstrous (and never mind that this is a risky procedure anyway.) You *eliminate* him as quickly and humanely as possible.

The risk however is turning him into a martyr. A legend and symbol.

You could still kill him right then and save the public execution for later. Of course, someone else would have to take Anders place. No reason to let an abomination run free.

(Ouch, can't believe I wrote this.)

Modifié par klarabella, 19 avril 2011 - 06:48 .

[nos_astra]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Cutlass Jack wrote...
 At least in Anders case I could just ignore him if I hated him, then kill him when the plot forced him to show up.

Not really. Because he not only shows up at your house, as if he is welcome, but apparently takes the liberty of shoving his manifesto everywhere in your property. Why would a very pro-Templar Hawke tolerate that?

When I refused to pull the AWESOME card and let Anders kill the mage girl, I really had a hard time figuring out if I should tell him to leave or tell him to stay. Why can't I tell the templars, dammit? Instead I had to keep him, because having him stay in his clinic (where Hawke could have an eye on him) seemed to make a little more sense than letting him roam free.

Really, my pro-templar Hawke has serious bouts of stupidity. (For my sake I assume Anders was not nearly as obvious an abomination as Varric makes him look in hindsight.)

Modifié par klarabella, 19 avril 2011 - 06:59 .

[Cutlass Jack]

klarabella wrote...
Really, my pro-templar Hawke has serious bouts of stupidity.

My pro-mage Hawke had some serious bouts of stupidity. First among them: siding with the mages.
About the only way they could hurt themselves more would be by tripping and falling on the Tranquil Branding Iron.

Modifié par Cutlass Jack, 19 avril 2011 - 06:59 .

[Lithuasil]

Rifneno wrote...

Lithuasil wrote...


Seriously though - the enemy numbers are pure gameplay - in close quarters, any seasoned fighter poses a risk, no matter how good you are. And Hawke maybe didn't bring Varric, has no way of knowing petrice motives (given she's not exactly outspoken). 
And I'm not denying it *could* work. But it's still a massive risk, with NO potential gain for Hawke, so why would anyone do it?

A wise err--thing once said of a similar Bioware PC that he orders his group into suicidal situations an average of 2.73 times daily. Rounding down.

See there's a grave misconception in here - hawke is a lot less similar to them, then all other bioware protagonists are to each other. Incidentally, she's also by far the most relateable (read ONLY relateable) bioware PC.

@Sabariel - arguing gameplay is completely irellevant to the point - and still - name one reason, why a sane hawke would take the risk - there's no reason to do so, unless you're 
a) someone who murders everyone who ever so slightly deceives you (making you a sociopath) or
someone who'd rather take the side of axe-crazy beasts desperately trying to kill you, then that of humans who warn people about said beasts. (making you suicidal at best).
And no Crpg can cater decisions for every possible mental distortion, so most decisions will have to stay within the spectrum of conceivable sanity.

[DeathStride]

klarabella wrote...

Really, my pro-templar Hawke has serious bouts of stupidity. (For my sake I assume Anders was not nearly as obvious an abomination as Varric makes him look in hindsight.)

I figure he was probably just embodying the true DA2 Templar spirit as seen in this strip:



(Right-click, then "view image" to see full-size)

Modifié par DeathStride, 19 avril 2011 - 07:04 .

[Annie_Dear]

He lives because:

- he had the right idea

- I honestly don't care for Sebastian

[FellowerOfOdin]

116 people like terrorism.

[Ryzaki]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

klarabella wrote...
Really, my pro-templar Hawke has serious bouts of stupidity.

My pro-mage Hawke had some serious bouts of stupidity. First among them: siding with the mages.
About the only way they could hurt themselves more would be by tripping and falling on the Tranquil Branding Iron.

[Sabariel]

FellowerOfOdin wrote...

116 people like terrorism.

124 people support oppression.


Oh, wait...

[The Morrigan]

Rifneno wrote...

No.  You cannot simply wave off all circumstance and focus only on what puts him in a negative light.  That's stupid.

No more stupid than assuming murder is fine as long as your intentions are good. Good intentions don't make negative actions miraculously good.

My point was that Anders decided to start a war. He had no supporters, no one rallying for the destruction of the Circle and the Templars. Anders did that on his own. He forced everyone into a war that, arguably, nobody wanted. How can this put him in a "positive light"?

[Rifneno]

Lithuasil wrote...

@Sabariel - arguing gameplay is completely irellevant to the point - and still - name one reason, why a sane hawke would take the risk - there's no reason to do so, unless you're 
a) someone who murders everyone who ever so slightly deceives you (making you a sociopath) or
someone who'd rather take the side of axe-crazy beasts desperately trying to kill you, then that of humans who warn people about said beasts. (making you suicidal at best).
And no Crpg can cater decisions for every possible mental distortion, so most decisions will have to stay within the spectrum of conceivable sanity.

"Ever so slightly deceieves you?"  She tried to get Hawke killed!  How the holy hell is that "ever so slightly"?!

The Morrigan wrote...

No more stupid than assuming murder is fine as long as your intentions are good. Good intentions don't make negative actions miraculously good.

"That man is a butcher!  He cut out a little boy's liver!"
"...  He's a transplant surgeon."

My point was that Anders decided to start a war. He had no supporters, no one rallying for the destruction of the Circle and the Templars. Anders did that on his own. He forced everyone into a war that, arguably, nobody wanted. How can this put him in a "positive light"?

All blind speculation on your part.  It's patently ridiculous to claim nobody wanted a rebellion against the Chantry.  Remember the blood mage that begs for mercy in the Circle Tower?  She tells you that the whole thing with Uldred was a rebellion gone bad because they just wanted to be free of the templars.  And that was in the gilded cage Circle of Ferelden, a grand place under the command of a benevolent knight-commander.  Not a haunted former slave torture center under the command of Meredith the Impaler.  Pfft.  "No one else wanted."  What are you expecting, each mage that wants a rebellion to send an unsolicited signed letter of approval to the Hawke estate in Act III?

Oh gee, if only we had some proof that the mages would rebel given the chance... like for instance if every single Circle in Thedas rose up after hearing that an Annulment failed and the templars weren't as invincible as they thought.  Oh wait!