414 réponses à ce sujet

[TobiTobsen]

Rifneno wrote...

The Morrigan wrote...

No more stupid than assuming murder is fine as long as your intentions are good. Good intentions don't make negative actions miraculously good.

"That man is a butcher!  He cut out a little boy's liver!"
"...  He's a transplant surgeon."

You compare a surgical operation with the bombing of a church?

[Icy Magebane]

TobiTobsen wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

The Morrigan wrote...

No more stupid than assuming murder is fine as long as your intentions are good. Good intentions don't make negative actions miraculously good.

"That man is a butcher!  He cut out a little boy's liver!"
"...  He's a transplant surgeon."

You compare a surgical operation with the bombing of a church?

Easily the worst analogy I've ever heard...

[Rifneno]

TobiTobsen wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

The Morrigan wrote...

No more stupid than assuming murder is fine as long as your intentions are good. Good intentions don't make negative actions miraculously good.

"That man is a butcher!  He cut out a little boy's liver!"
"...  He's a transplant surgeon."

You compare a surgical operation with the bombing of a church?

No, I'm making a point that when you blindly dismiss circumstance and focus only on negative aspects, it's very easy for something that's not evil to look evil.  Hence why sticking one's head in the sand to facts like "the Chantry was the organization governing an oppressive dictator" (or "the Chantry is not a church") then you're just seeing what you want to see.

But sure, I'll compare it to a surgical operation if you'd like.  Not a transplant though.  The Chantry is a malignant tumor that must be removed from Thedas.

[Cutlass Jack]

Rifneno wrote...

No, I'm making a point that when you blindly dismiss circumstance and focus only on negative aspects, it's very easy for something that's not evil to look evil.  Hence why sticking one's head in the sand to facts like "the Chantry was the organization governing an oppressive dictator" (or "the Chantry is not a church") then you're just seeing what you want to see.

But sure, I'll compare it to a surgical operation if you'd like.  Not a transplant though.  The Chantry is a malignant tumor that must be removed from Thedas.

Its somewhat ironic that your second paragraph does exactly what you talk about in the first paragraph.

[Rifneno]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

No, I'm making a point that when you blindly dismiss circumstance and focus only on negative aspects, it's very easy for something that's not evil to look evil.  Hence why sticking one's head in the sand to facts like "the Chantry was the organization governing an oppressive dictator" (or "the Chantry is not a church") then you're just seeing what you want to see.

But sure, I'll compare it to a surgical operation if you'd like.  Not a transplant though.  The Chantry is a malignant tumor that must be removed from Thedas.

Its somewhat ironic that your second paragraph does exactly what you talk about in the first paragraph.

What, by not explaining my viewpoint because I've already done so many times?  I hope that's not it, because you just did it too.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Rifneno wrote...

TobiTobsen wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

The Morrigan wrote...

No more stupid than assuming murder is fine as long as your intentions are good. Good intentions don't make negative actions miraculously good.

"That man is a butcher!  He cut out a little boy's liver!"
"...  He's a transplant surgeon."

You compare a surgical operation with the bombing of a church?

No, I'm making a point that when you blindly dismiss circumstance and focus only on negative aspects, it's very easy for something that's not evil to look evil.  Hence why sticking one's head in the sand to facts like "the Chantry was the organization governing an oppressive dictator" (or "the Chantry is not a church") then you're just seeing what you want to see.

But sure, I'll compare it to a surgical operation if you'd like.  Not a transplant though.  The Chantry is a malignant tumor that must be removed from Thedas.

Name some of the positive stuff Anders' bombing achieved.

And aren't you forgetting all the good stuff the Chantry does around Thedas? Like sheltering homeless and Orphans, granting sanctuary to those in need, education, the list practically goes on. But "ooooooh they OPPRESS the mages!!!!!oneeleven They must die RAAAWR!"

Nice double standards you got yourself there.

[Rifneno]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
Name some of the positive stuff Anders' bombing achieved.

And aren't you forgetting all the good stuff the Chantry does around Thedas? Like sheltering homeless and Orphans, granting sanctuary to those in need, education, the list practically goes on. But "ooooooh they OPPRESS the mages!!!!!oneeleven They must die RAAAWR!"

Nice double standards you got yourself there.

Ditto for your double standard.  Let's murderize Anders for attacking the Chantry and nevermind he spent the last 7 years healing sick and injured poor people at the risk of being captured by the templars.  But let's forgive the Chantry turning a blind eye to murderers and rapists in their ranks.  When the oppressed start to fight back against the templars that the Chantry refuses to control, what do they do?  Do they finally reign in the templars?  Hell no, they start planning an exalted march.  Not even on the people just fighting back against oppression, but against the entire city they happen to be in.  Oh yeah, the Chantry sure is great!  I sure hope the next game is set in Orlais.  Then after the main character walks out of the majestic and lavish halls of the Chantry's headquarters, you can visit the most overcrowded and dilapidated alienage in all of Thedas, housing "10,000 elves in an area no bigger than the Denerim marketplace" and tell them all how charitable and selfless the Chantry is.

[Sabriana]

Hmm... I wonder how many of the people he healed during his years as a healer died from falling debris and/or being in close vicinity to the Chantry alone, not to mention some might have been in the Chantry itself.


Just saying...

[Cutlass Jack]

Sabriana wrote...

Hmm... I wonder how many of the people he healed during his years as a healer died from falling debris and/or being in close vicinity to the Chantry alone, not to mention some might have been in the Chantry itself.

Just saying...

I'd say at least as many as the mages he got killed trying to 'free' them.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Rifneno wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
Name some of the positive stuff Anders' bombing achieved.

And aren't you forgetting all the good stuff the Chantry does around Thedas? Like sheltering homeless and Orphans, granting sanctuary to those in need, education, the list practically goes on. But "ooooooh they OPPRESS the mages!!!!!oneeleven They must die RAAAWR!"

Nice double standards you got yourself there.

Ditto for your double standard.  Let's murderize Anders for attacking the Chantry and nevermind he spent the last 7 years healing sick and injured poor people at the risk of being captured by the templars.  But let's forgive the Chantry turning a blind eye to murderers and rapists in their ranks.  When the oppressed start to fight back against the templars that the Chantry refuses to control, what do they do?  Do they finally reign in the templars?  Hell no, they start planning an exalted march.  Not even on the people just fighting back against oppression, but against the entire city they happen to be in.  Oh yeah, the Chantry sure is great!  I sure hope the next game is set in Orlais.  Then after the main character walks out of the majestic and lavish halls of the Chantry's headquarters, you can visit the most overcrowded and dilapidated alienage in all of Thedas, housing "10,000 elves in an area no bigger than the Denerim marketplace" and tell them all how charitable and selfless the Chantry is.

Do you even know what double standards are? Cause what I'm saying isn't even close to double standards.

It doesn't matter how Anders spent his years in Kirkwall. What he did was a capital offense, and he will be judged accordingly. Should we start excusing bank robbers because they need the money? Should we excuse murderers, who kill another killer? No. We shouldn't. What Anders did was a crime, and I couldn't care less that he used to be a healer.
The Chantry is not turning a blind eye to the illegalities the Templars are commiting, but as internal affairs, it takes a long time to root out. The Grand Cleric coldn't just kick in the door at the Gallows and just start judge Templars right and left, when she has nothing to go on. We know of ONE bad Templar, and we kill him.

[Wulfram]

It's somewhat difficult for me to answer this. I wouldn't support killing him because I don't believe in the death penalty in any situation - I'd simply stick him in a normal, humane prison for the rest of his life.
However, my Hawkes always kill him. Given what Hawke does in this game, I cannot see them being as squeamish about dealing out death in judgement as I am. Anders crime is one which deserves the maximum punishment available.

[Medhia Nox]

Anders is Hawke's fault. This whole mess is because Hawke was portrayed as self-serving, greedy, and inept. I'm no longer going to consider Anders at fault in this story. You can only keep a wild animal as a pet for so long before it resorts back to its primitive state.

[Rifneno]

Sabriana wrote...

Hmm... I wonder how many of the people he healed during his years as a healer died from falling debris and/or being in close vicinity to the Chantry alone, not to mention some might have been in the Chantry itself.


Just saying...

A small fraction, I'd imagine.  People are blowing (no pun intended) the whole "falling debris" thing way out of proportion.  I can't find hard numbers, probably because in many cases it's hard to tell exactly where someone was, but it looks like 200ish people died outside the towers or planes in 9/11.  And that was a much larger explosion from a much larger building in a much more populated area.  You'll also notice if you watch the video closely that the great majority of the debris is thrown far out of Kirkwall.

So, barring something beyond wild speculation, I'm not going to take the falling debris thing very seriously.  At least no moreso than the obvious innocents in the Chantry, who almost certainly far outnumber the debris thing.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Do you even know what double standards are? Cause what I'm saying isn't even close to double standards.

It doesn't matter how Anders spent his years in Kirkwall. What he did was a capital offense, and he will be judged accordingly. Should we start excusing bank robbers because they need the money? Should we excuse murderers, who kill another killer? No. We shouldn't. What Anders did was a crime, and I couldn't care less that he used to be a healer.
The Chantry is not turning a blind eye to the illegalities the Templars are commiting, but as internal affairs, it takes a long time to root out. The Grand Cleric coldn't just kick in the door at the Gallows and just start judge Templars right and left, when she has nothing to go on. We know of ONE bad Templar, and we kill him.

Yes it is a double standard.  You want to forgive the Chantry's wrongdoings while absolutely condemning Anders'.

YOU know of one bad templar.  Those of us that paid attention know of, just off the top of my head, Meredith (I'm not even going to explain that one), Alrik (<Chris Hanson>  Why don't you have a seat?  </Chris Hanson>), Karras (tries to kill the Starkhaven mages with no evidence of wrongdoing, then if let lives he rapes Alain), Varnell (Petrice's sidekick who captures, tortures, and executes qunari because his religion calls them heretics).  That's 4 named ones, not counting of course the many that just go by something like "templar death squad."

Anytime you bring any wrongdoing to Elthina's attention she ignores it and claims the Maker will handle everything.  "internal affairs takes time?"  Lie to yourself if you like, don't lie to me.

Cutlass Jack wrote...

I'd say at least as many as the mages he got killed trying to 'free' them.

And we shouldn't have fought the civil war, because lots of slaves would get killed?  It's truly amazing how many people think unjust rule can change without any innocent bloodshed.  I hate Hollywood.  =/

Modifié par Rifneno, 19 avril 2011 - 01:22 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

How is Anders' bomb Hawke's fault? My Hawke never had any dealings with Anders after he got the map from him. How is it Hawke's fault then?

[Camenae]

Medhia Nox wrote...

Anders is Hawke's fault. This whole mess is because Hawke was portrayed as self-serving, greedy, and inept. I'm no longer going to consider Anders at fault in this story. You can only keep a wild animal as a pet for so long before it resorts back to its primitive state.

Hawke IS selfish!  Anders is healing refugees in Darktown for free, and then Hawke comes and drags him away.  And to do what?  Hawke's stupid errands.  Yes, because the slum-dwellers have a bunch more doctors lining up willing to heal them for free...

[Medhia Nox]

@Rifneno - so, you want the entire Andraste religion destroyed because of several bad apples (admittedly in an entire city full of scumbags of every fashion)

So - all mages should be killed by that rationale. Since Grace, Anders, Orsino - the Blood Mage in the cave with Grace - and the Kirkwall Killer are all blatantly evil psychopaths.

Heck - I've even got a mage who agrees with me. Ketojen wants to kill himself because he's too powerful to be trusted on his own.

===

I think you're romanticizing revolution... I hate Hollywood.

===

@ Camenae: Anders only heals Fereldens. Everyone in his clinic is a "Refugee".

I actually think he's healing them so that they'll hide him. I truly don't think he's doing it to help them. Handy little mob he's got protecting him.

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 19 avril 2011 - 01:28 .

[Rifneno]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Rifneno - so, you want the entire Andraste religion destroyed because of several bad apples (admittedly in an entire city full of scumbags of every fashion)

So - all mages should be killed by that rationale. Since Grace, Anders, Orsino - the Blood Mage in the cave with Grace - and the Kirkwall Killer are all blatantly evil psychopaths.

Heck - I've even got a mage who agrees with me. Ketojen wants to kill himself because he's too powerful to be trusted on his own.

===

I think you're romanticizing revolution... I hate Hollywood.

===

@ Camenae: Anders only heals Fereldens. Everyone in his clinic is a "Refugee".

I actually think he's healing them so that they'll hide him. I truly don't think he's doing it to help them. Handy little mob he's got protecting him.

1.  I'll bother with a detailed counterpoint when you actually know the names of the characters in the story you're talking about.
2.  Seneschal Bran is a Ferelden refugee?  He sure fits into the city well!  Typical, trying to pass off wild theories as fact...

[EmperorSahlertz]

Rifneno wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Do you even know what double standards are? Cause what I'm saying isn't even close to double standards.

It doesn't matter how Anders spent his years in Kirkwall. What he did was a capital offense, and he will be judged accordingly. Should we start excusing bank robbers because they need the money? Should we excuse murderers, who kill another killer? No. We shouldn't. What Anders did was a crime, and I couldn't care less that he used to be a healer.
The Chantry is not turning a blind eye to the illegalities the Templars are commiting, but as internal affairs, it takes a long time to root out. The Grand Cleric coldn't just kick in the door at the Gallows and just start judge Templars right and left, when she has nothing to go on. We know of ONE bad Templar, and we kill him.

Yes it is a double standard.  You want to forgive the Chantry's wrongdoings while absolutely condemning Anders'.

YOU know of one bad templar.  Those of us that paid attention know of, just off the top of my head, Meredith (I'm not even going to explain that one), Alrik (<Chris Hanson>  Why don't you have a seat?  </Chris Hanson>), Karras (tries to kill the Starkhaven mages with no evidence of wrongdoing, then if let lives he rapes Alain), Varnell (Petrice's sidekick who captures, tortures, and executes qunari because his religion calls them heretics).  That's 4 named ones, not counting of course the many that just go by something like "templar death squad."

Anytime you bring any wrongdoing to Elthina's attention she ignores it and claims the Maker will handle everything.  "internal affairs takes time?"  Lie to yourself if you like, don't lie to me.

I'm not "forgiving" the Chantry for anything, mainly because I don't think the Chantry has done anyhting wrong. The CHantry is not to blame that a few Templars are rotten. If you want to go by that logic, I can safely judge all Mages as rotten becusae of what Anders did. That is why you have double standards. You are willing to judge the Chantry as a whole based on the actions of a few, but are unwilling to do the same to mages.
And we don't know wether Kerras is a rapist, a lot of you are willing to judge him as such, even though we got no proof, though. And he was going to kill the Starkhaven mages for being Blood Mages, which they were. Shocking.
Nor, do I think Meredith is at fault, at all (before she got that idol ofcourse). She was in a hopeless posistion of having to deal with a First Enchanter unwilling to cooperate, and thus she was reduced to try and make do with the resources she had. Force.
Varnell was a dangerous Zealot to be sure. But he did no worse than Anders.
So if you want to judge an entirety, based on the actions of a fragment within this entirety. Do so consistently, instead of selectively. And then you may actually get some real standards, instead of twice that.

[KnightofPhoenix]

To be fair, the Chantry is an institution. Mages are not (the Circle is and it is organized that way by the Chantry). So the argument that members of the Chantry being "bad" reflects on the organization as a whole holds more ground.

That said, we know that the Chantry disapproved of extreme measures and Meredith was mostly an exception. The Chantry may not have done something "wrong", but it proved ineffectual when it came to Kirkwall and their inaction proved catastrophic. This exposed a weakness in the organization.

[Raycer X]

I let Anders live even though I absolutely dislike his personality change. I just want my Warden Commander to deal with him, not Hawke. Afterall, even if Anders claims to have left the Wardens, he'll most likely find himself in the Deep Roads one day.

[Sabriana]

How many is in a "fraction"? How many poor sods have to die to make his crime unacceptable? 1? 10? 100?

How can you know it was 'just' a fraction? The cinematic was quite dramatic, showing the debris propelling every which way. Anders treated the poor and downtrodden. Those who live in the streets or in shacks.

@ Cutlass

Yes. Quite possible.

[Camenae]

Why doesn't the church subsidize healers like Anders? Would be great PR, doing good deeds, and $$$$$'s all in one. The church-sponsored hospitals all rake in mad cash! The Chantry missed out...

[Medhia Nox]

@KnightofPheonix - so you think there's some organization somewhere in the real world that isn't full of flaws and corrupt people?

[KnightofPhoenix]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@KnightofPheonix - so you think there's some organization somewhere in the real world that isn't full of flaws and corrupt people?

Of course not. Does not change the fact that it is flawed, and flaws need to be pointed out and addressed. Some organizations are stronger and better than others, and the chantry's political role has outlived its usefullness.

[Medhia Nox]

@KnightofPheonix - so, we should bomb buildings of organizations we think are flawed and possess corrupted people? That is justice?