414 réponses à ce sujet

[Rifneno]

Sabriana wrote...

How many is in a "fraction"? How many poor sods have to die to make his crime unacceptable? 1? 10? 100?

58 casualties and at least 184 injuries.  Broken arm or worse, none of this 2 stitches crap.

How can you know it was 'just' a fraction? The cinematic was quite dramatic, showing the debris propelling every which way. Anders treated the poor and downtrodden. Those who live in the streets or in shacks.

The burden of proof is on you, not on me.  You're making the claim that lots of people would've been killed by the debris, it's up to you to prove it.

[BlueMew]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Rifneno - so, you want the entire Andraste religion destroyed because of several bad apples (admittedly in an entire city full of scumbags of every fashion)

So - all mages should be killed by that rationale. Since Grace, Anders, Orsino - the Blood Mage in the cave with Grace - and the Kirkwall Killer are all blatantly evil psychopaths.

Heck - I've even got a mage who agrees with me. Ketojen wants to kill himself because he's too powerful to be trusted on his own.

That... might not be the best example. Since he's a brain-washed Borg-like religious crazyman. 

And I'm not sure Andraste would disapprove either - she waged war on an entire empire, didn't she? 

@ Camenae: Anders only heals Fereldens. Everyone in his clinic is a "Refugee".

I actually think he's healing them so that they'll hide him. I truly don't think he's doing it to help them. Handy little mob he's got protecting him.

Um... he's always been a healer? You don't actually become one in order to be better able to blow something up. 

I'll just content myself  with being happy that we can make our own decision in the game on what to do about Anders, just as what to do with Isabela and the qunari. I'd hate to be railroaded into him being killed / tortured / whatever because 'evul must be smitten. Agree with me or be Wrong.' 
Personally, I wished there was a way to exorcise Justice and keep Anders safe in the process. Well, I didn't get to do that, but at least I have my vivid imagination. 

Choices are good. 

Modifié par BlueMew, 19 avril 2011 - 01:49 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

To be fair, the Chantry is an institution. Mages are not (the Circle is and it is organized that way by the Chantry). So the argument that members of the Chantry being "bad" reflects on the organization as a whole holds more ground.

That said, we know that the Chantry disapproved of extreme measures and Meredith was mostly an exception. The Chantry may not have done something "wrong", but it proved ineffectual when it came to Kirkwall and their inaction proved catastrophic. This exposed a weakness in the organization.

It proves nothing. What happened in Kirkwall was a result of several different factors. Not just an ineffective Chantry. When you put any organization in a situation like Kirkwall, it will inevitably crumble. If you remove any one of the factors to the 'Kirkwall Incident', the whole situation is diffused, which to me proves it isn't caused by an "ineffective Chantry".

[KnightofPhoenix]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@KnightofPheonix - so, we should bomb buildings of organizations we think are flawed and possess corrupted people? That is justice?

Um, where did I say that?
I've always argued that what Anders did was foolish, justice or no.

[Medhia Nox]

@BlueMew - I assume that last part is yours?

You'll never know the choices I made during the game, because I'm not interested in proving I have a "vivid imagination".

As for whoever wrote about Ketojen being a "Borg-Like Crazyman" - that's not "fact". I'm not part of the Qun, and while I don't agree with his choice necessarily, I can understand it.

====

@KnightofPheonix: I'm aware you never said it. I was just running through the train of thought.

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 19 avril 2011 - 01:53 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
It proves nothing. What happened in Kirkwall was a result of several different factors. Not just an ineffective Chantry. When you put any organization in a situation like Kirkwall, it will inevitably crumble. If you remove any one of the factors to the 'Kirkwall Incident', the whole situation is diffused, which to me proves it isn't caused by an "ineffective Chantry".

Different factors yes, many of them are at least indirectly linked to the Chantry.
And I do not think all organizations are bound to fail in Kirkwall. If it was allowed to have a proper government and not a Templar puppet regime, which the Chantry foolishly allowed, maybe it wouldn't have crumbled. Indeed, I am assuming that what happened in Kirkwall now never happened before in the same city. Because never before did the Templars think they were qualified to hold political power.

[Russalka]

He lives. His desire was to die as well, but he shall not have it. And he is too caring to not feel burdened for the rest of his life.

[Medhia Nox]

And it's interesting how myopic some people's view of "evil" is. I suppose there are no corrupt doctors in the real world - because, I mean, they heal people right?

[Rifneno]

Medhia Nox wrote...
You'll never know the choices I made during the game, because I'm not interested in proving I have a "vivid imagination". 

No need, you already proved that with the whole "Anders only treats Ferelden refugees like Bran so they can be his lynch mob" thing.

Modifié par Rifneno, 19 avril 2011 - 01:56 .

[Medhia Nox]

@Rifneno - yeah, cause healing Bran wouldn't be political maneuvering. Especially since Bran should have reported him as an apostate.

He's a terrorist - you don't think there are terrorist cells that go around acting like normal people until they're activated?

Do you think the Viscount should be blamed for any of this? Or is it just your hate-on for anything resembling a religion?

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 19 avril 2011 - 02:00 .

[BlueMew]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@BlueMew - I assume that last part is yours?

You'll never know the choices I made during the game, because I'm not interested in proving I have a "vivid imagination".

I'm not proving anything. I'm just happy I have one, and to be fairly honest, I'm not terribly interested in whatever choices you made. I daresay I can make some educated guesses though.

As for whoever wrote about Ketojen being a "Borg-Like Crazyman" - that's not "fact". I'm not part of the Qun, and while I don't agree with his choice necessarily, I can understand it.

Of course. But a thoroughly indoctrinated guy with his mouth sewn shut is perhaps not the most fortunate example for any mage.

[EmperorSahlertz]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
It proves nothing. What happened in Kirkwall was a result of several different factors. Not just an ineffective Chantry. When you put any organization in a situation like Kirkwall, it will inevitably crumble. If you remove any one of the factors to the 'Kirkwall Incident', the whole situation is diffused, which to me proves it isn't caused by an "ineffective Chantry".

Different factors yes, many of them are at least indirectly linked to the Chantry.
And I do not think all organizations are bound to fail in Kirkwall. If it was allowed to have a proper government and not a Templar puppet regime, which the Chantry foolishly allowed, maybe it wouldn't have crumbled. Indeed, I am assuming that what happened in Kirkwall now never happened before in the same city. Because never before did the Templars think they were qualified to hold political power.

There is a reason that there is a major Templar presence in Kirkwall after all. The Templars was perfectly content with being "just" Templars, until a Viscount tried to expel them from the city. The current political climate, forces Dumar into appeasing the Templars, or else he would suffer the same fate. The Templars havn't "ruled" in Kirkwall forever, only for a few years, and Dumar was still the leader of Kirkwall, he just had to appease, as mentioned. After Dumar's death, the Templars was the only major military might in the city, and they initiated a martial law, because of the situation in the circle, this martial law is never lifted.
As I said, there was a whole bunch of different reasons, many of which are not tied to the Chantry, for the situation in Kirkwall.

[Medhia Nox]

@EmperorSahlertz - quiet you, we might have to blame someone other than the religious faction.

[KnightofPhoenix]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
There is a reason that there is a major Templar presence in Kirkwall after all. The Templars was perfectly content with being "just" Templars, until a Viscount tried to expel them from the city. The current political climate, forces Dumar into appeasing the Templars, or else he would suffer the same fate. The Templars havn't "ruled" in Kirkwall forever, only for a few years, and Dumar was still the leader of Kirkwall, he just had to appease, as mentioned. After Dumar's death, the Templars was the only major military might in the city, and they initiated a martial law, because of the situation in the circle, this martial law is never lifted.
As I said, there was a whole bunch of different reasons, many of which are not tied to the Chantry, for the situation in Kirkwall.

And I am not faulting the Templars for defending themselves. What I am faulting is their assumption of power after that and the Chantry allowing it (as well as promoting Meredith to KC). Dumar was a puppet. Deliberately installed because he was weak and wouldn't dare cross the Templars. Those few years are enough to destablize the entire system, as one of the main pillars of the Templars, popular support, was lost in large reason due to this.

The Templars even with Dumar had imposed themselves as the major military might of the city and it shouldn't have been the case. The Chantry should have allowed a strong but allied Viscount to assume the throne and invest in the city's guards to handle the duties that the Templars are not supposed to do.

Martial law is a legal action and the Templars have no legal authorization to do it outside the Circle. There was never any martial law. And the crisis that supposedely justifies it, is in large part because of Meredith's doing and the Chantry foolishly allowing her to keep her position despite everything.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 19 avril 2011 - 02:11 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@EmperorSahlertz - quiet you, we might have to blame someone other than the religious faction.

That is very unfair and uncalled for, I happen to be very religious.

I am not blaming a religion, nor am I solely blaming the Chantry. I am however looking at the situation as objectively as possible, and the Chantry meddling in politics (or allowing the Templars to meddle in politics) was, for me, the major reason why this all happened. Not the only one.

[Cutlass Jack]

Rifneno wrote...

Yes it is a double standard.  You want to forgive the Chantry's wrongdoings while absolutely condemning Anders'.

Um no its not. Not even close. If he wanted to kill all mages for Anders wrongdoing it would be. Condemning the person actually responsible for the atrocity is entirely different. On either side.

Should all Catholic priests go to jail because a few are pedophiles? Should the entire middle east be killed because of 9/11? Should all Americans be punished because one wacky minster in Florida burns a holy book? Are all cops bad because a few are on the take?

(Rhetorical. But since you were tossing the Civil War into our gaming discussion I thought it fair.)

Sometimes when crimes are committed, you punish the criminal. Crazy concept, I know. Ser Alrik recieved exactly the same justice I gave Anders.

[BlueMew]

Cutlass Jack wrote...
Sometimes when crimes are committed, you punish the criminal. Crazy concept, I know. Ser Alrik recieved exactly the same justice I gave Anders.

That I understand. But considering one of the options in the poll was 'what crime?', well...

I must say I agree with Isabela when she says something along the lines of that if Anders/Justice kills a bunch of innocents, then by his own reasoning they, too, would demand Justice. He agrees, and she points out that it will never ever end, so maybe there isn't any justice in the world.

This, obviously, coming from someone who is not exactly a paragon of virtue, but then again, who is? OK, the Arishok. Ye gods, now I'm scared.

[Camenae]

Do you people actually have gainful things to do during your days such as school, work, etc.? Because this forum always dies down during business hours. /cry

[BlueMew]

Camenae wrote...

Do you people actually have gainful things to do during your days such as school, work, etc.? Because this forum always dies down during business hours. /cry

Gief new job? *looks hopeful*

[Cutlass Jack]

BlueMew wrote...

I must say I agree with Isabela when she says something along the lines of that if Anders/Justice kills a bunch of innocents, then by his own reasoning they, too, would demand Justice. He agrees, and she points out that it will never ever end, so maybe there isn't any justice in the world.

Wisdom from the mouths of pirates. Isabela is surprisingly insightful when you least expect it. And actually that conversation was exactly the reason I killed him.

And for the record, Anders was a very close friend of my Hawke (not that close *cough*) and I supported the mages at every opportunity. No matter how many times they made me regret it. *sigh*

But he crossed the one line right there he wasn't allowed to come back from in my opinion. It was that simple.

[Sabriana]

Rifneno wrote...

Sabriana wrote...

How many is in a "fraction"? How many poor sods have to die to make his crime unacceptable? 1? 10? 100?

58 casualties and at least 184 injuries.  Broken arm or worse, none of this 2 stitches crap.

How can you know it was 'just' a fraction? The cinematic was quite dramatic, showing the debris propelling every which way. Anders treated the poor and downtrodden. Those who live in the streets or in shacks.

The burden of proof is on you, not on me.  You're making the claim that lots of people would've been killed by the debris, it's up to you to prove it.

I have no intention to prove anything. There is no such proof available. You say that only a fraction are killed, which, btw, sounds quite cold-hearted to me, I say there were quite a few killed. I base my supposition on seeing the large amount of debris flying around, quite a bit of it blasting way with great force.

I base my assumption/opinion on what I saw. But you could be right. All those pieces of rock and other flaming debris could well have landed in the water. Or in empty spots. Coincidental-like. With *only* a 'fraction' of dead civilians.

Anders commited a crime. He pays for it in the way that the game allows me.

Alrik commited a crime. He pays for int the way that gave me deep satisfaction

Karras tried to kill people simply because he felt they deserve it. He pays for trying to murder unarmed and surrendering people. Them being mages notwithstanding. Although, unfortunately, Grace just had to go and prove him right. p)

Gaspard is the only one that's a "maybe", because Hawke kills him out of grief, because it makes her feel better. Other

than that, in my game - if you commit a heinous crime (and the game let's me) - you'll pay the price.

[KnightofPhoenix]

In my game, Grace pays for being a hysterical idiot.

[Sabriana]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

In my game, Grace pays for being a hysterical idiot.

Yah, that too. Which brings me to the subjects of templars that deserved better. There is simply no way to generalize in one fell swoop.

However, we are shown (and told) quite clearly that Anders did blow up the Chantry.

And besides, with regards to the so-called crime of apathy Elthina commits, what would be the fitting punishment for Hawke for her apathy? Is she simply too stupid to realize what everyone else (including Varric) seems to realize? Tensions between two powerful factions are steadily getting worse, but the Champion does nothing. Pretty apathetic imo. If she is the 'most important' person in the city, and their champion, she could have done something early on.

Unite the nobles.
Assist the Underground
Gather sympathetic templars
and more

Unless she was in a stasis pod. Or kidnapped by aliens. Or something.

[DeathStride]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

Yes it is a double standard.  You want to forgive the Chantry's wrongdoings while absolutely condemning Anders'.

Um no its not. Not even close. If he wanted to kill all mages for Anders wrongdoing it would be. Condemning the person actually responsible for the atrocity is entirely different. On either side.

Should all Catholic priests go to jail because a few are pedophiles? Should the entire middle east be killed because of 9/11? Should all Americans be punished because one wacky minster in Florida burns a holy book? Are all cops bad because a few are on the take?

(Rhetorical. But since you were tossing the Civil War into our gaming discussion I thought it fair.)

Sometimes when crimes are committed, you punish the criminal. Crazy concept, I know. Ser Alrik recieved exactly the same justice I gave Anders.

QFT x 1000.

[Medhia Nox]

Elthina, Meredith, Orsino and Viscount Dumar are all grossly incompetent at their jobs. The Champion and his crew? All self-serving mercenaries.

Not a single one in the bunch to admire. At least for me. It's become a new fad to celebrate flaws instead of trying to better ourselves. So I could understand why some people love these characters.