414 réponses à ce sujet

[Herr Uhl]

Medhia Nox wrote...

Elthina, Meredith, Orsino and Viscount Dumar are all grossly incompetent at their jobs. The Champion and his crew? All self-serving mercenaries.

Not a single one in the bunch to admire. At least for me. It's become a new fad to celebrate flaws instead of trying to better ourselves. So I could understand why some people love these characters.

When?

[Medhia Nox]

@Herr Uhl - you like Superman or Batman?

[_purifico_]

Yup, making him a tranquil. Now that is something I would LOVE to see) Or some other way to make him suffer, but none of this mercy killing, and none of this public execution bull**** - I don't want him to become a martyr. Let his name be erased from the annals of history and forgotten by everyone.

[Artres]

I find what he did was hasty and not well thought out (much to the contrary of what he says).  It was obvious that the mages were going to rebel even without the added chantry-splosion, so Anders obviously did wrong.  All he did was paint the mages in a bad light, making it so that they don't have a chance of having the moral high ground now.

That being said, I also don't believe that it's entirely his fault.  Which of you has been inhabited by a spirit of Justice that has been twisted into a demon of Vengeance?  Who here knows just how much that can effect someone's actions?  In the end, Anders will live, but he will provide penance for this heinous act (this is my answer to the "other" option), and work tirelessly to make sure that the oppressed are not oppressed while using the correct methods.  Any more screw ups, and it's the gallows for him, and not as a martyr, no public spectacles - he will die in obscurity.

[Rexiselic]

I know I wasn't asked, but I like Superman.

I also like Batman, but I prefer Superman.

What I am trying to say is: SUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUPERMAN!

Modifié par Rexiselic, 19 avril 2011 - 03:12 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Rexiselic wrote...

I know I wasn't asked, but I like Superman.

I also like Batman, but I prefer Superman.

What I am trying to say is: SUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUPERMAN!

No.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 19 avril 2011 - 03:15 .

[Cutlass Jack]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Rexiselic wrote...

I know I wasn't asked, but I like Superman.

I also like Batman, but I prefer Superman.

What I am trying to say is: SUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUPERMAN!

No.

No.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Rexiselic wrote...

I know I wasn't asked, but I like Superman.

I also like Batman, but I prefer Superman.

What I am trying to say is: SUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUPERMAN!

No.

No.

Yes.

Beat that.

[Medhia Nox]

Okay - guys, I wasn't trying to derail the post in one fell swoop.

Remember - "swooping is bad".

====

My point is that "flaw = human" seems to me a celebration of how F-ed up people are, or can be.

While striving to be better is called "boring" "limited" "naive" "unrelatable". etc.

Sin, is "in" nowadays.

[Russalka]

Flawed characters are enjoyable. Badly developed ones are not. Anders is flawed, but not badly developed, at least to me.

[Cutlass Jack]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Beat that.

You have no one to blame but yourself.

[OldMan91]

It's become a new fad to celebrate flaws instead of trying to better ourselves. So I could understand why some people love these characters.

It's not a fad. It's normal. there may be qualities in a person which you may think of as "flaws" but I may believe otherwise.

[Bobad]

I'd hand him over to the new Arishok, for death by snu-snu.

[Medhia Nox]

@OldMan91 - well, then if inept, licentious, lascivious, greedy, mercenary types are people you feel you should aspire to. I'd have a game to recommend for you - but, since you've registered it, it's likely you've already played.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Beat that.

You have no one to blame but yourself.

[Cutlass Jack]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Yeah. I want to murder knife myself now.

[Russalka]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@OldMan91 - well, then if inept, licentious, lascivious, greedy, mercenary types are people you feel you should aspire to. I'd have a game to recommend for you - but, since you've registered it, it's likely you've already played.

There is a difference between aspiring to be them and enjoying the situations and emotions they evoke.

Modifié par Russalka, 19 avril 2011 - 03:33 .

[Camenae]

Where did this whole Superman/Batman thing come from?

Knight of Phoenix and Cutlass Jack, get a room before you make other people jealous. :x

[EmperorSahlertz]

Medhia Nox wrote...

Okay - guys, I wasn't trying to derail the post in one fell swoop.

Remember - "swooping is bad".

====

My point is that "flaw = human" seems to me a celebration of how F-ed up people are, or can be.

While striving to be better is called "boring" "limited" "naive" "unrelatable". etc.

Sin, is "in" nowadays.

The whole idea of a flawed character is that they strive to be better, despite their flaws. A character like Superman, who from day 1 had an uncorruptable moralcompas and GPS are boring and bland, because you know exactly what you are going to get from him (add to that, that he is invincible and you got yourself a nice mix of boring). Flawed characters are celebrated becasue they symbolize the triumph over oneself.

[Rifneno]

Medhia Nox wrote...

Do you think the Viscount should be blamed for any of this? Or is it just your hate-on for anything resembling a religion?

If he wasn't a powerless figurehead, yes definitely.  But it's made very clear that the templars control the viscount, not the other way around.

Cutlass Jack wrote...

Wisdom from the mouths of pirates. Isabela is surprisingly insightful when you least expect it. And actually that conversation was exactly the reason I killed him.

The dev who wrote Anders for DA2 said she thought he willingly accepted death.  He viewed what he did as a necessary evil but also felt he needed to accept the punishment for it regardless of justification.  And that's fine.  I'm not arguing that no one should knife him.  I'm arguing that it's ridiculous to pretend there was no reason or justification for what he did.

As for the notion I'm a hypocrite for not blaming all the mages but still blaming the Chantry as a whole, it's because one is an organization and the other is not.  Mages don't make the choice to be a mage.  Templars made a choice to be templars.  Templars can stop being templars, mages can't stop being mages.  I blame the Chantry because it has fail utterly to put a stop to corruption its ranks, not because a few apples went bad.  The game takes place over 7 years.  Not only does the grand cleric never stem the tide of corruption, a frickin' seeker even comes to Kirkwall and the only one people who seem to be in danger of Chantry retribution is the mages sick of being abused and the townsfolk whose only crime is being in the same city as the mages they want to launch a crusade against.  The Chantry has had more than enough opportunity to take care of bad seeds.  It has proven it either can't or won't.  So the organization must be brought down IMO.

Edit:  Oh, and Supes > Batman by light years.

Modifié par Rifneno, 19 avril 2011 - 08:37 .

[Sabariel]

Sabriana wrote...

Hmm... I wonder how many of the people he healed during his years as a healer died from falling debris and/or being in close vicinity to the Chantry alone, not to mention some might have been in the Chantry itself.


Just saying...

Most likely none as they were all huddled in Darktown, busy being poor

[Lithuasil]

Medhia Nox wrote...

My point is that "flaw = human" seems to me a celebration of how F-ed up people are, or can be.

While striving to be better is called "boring" "limited" "naive" "unrelatable". etc.

Sin, is "in" nowadays.

"I think we ought to read only the kind of books that wound and stab us. If the book we are reading doesn't wake us up with a blow on the head, what are we reading it for?"
—Franz Kafka
   

Striving to be better, despite being a human being, is what's desireable. Simply being better, without fault, doubt, or any chance to pull off anything less then a complete success, is boring, bland bull****. 

Overcoming the odds, holding a speech of "we're all going to die, but standing up here is the right thing, and reuniting with bethany, that's awesome, it's heroic, it's heartwarming. Because it's done by Hawke, by a person that overcame her selfishness and decided to stand her ground, to become more then a human for a little time.

If the warden swooped through, geared in ramped up plot armor, voiceless and with no relation to the inherent conflict, there'd be nothing heroic about this scene, nothing meaningful, just "warden kills some more dudes, and applies the all-fixing power of plot, and they all lived happily after/died a horrible death, depending on what choice the warden picks".


The complains about human protagonists aren't about any moral quarrels with playing someone non-heroic, nor are they about moral decay among artists. But those games deny you the kind of remote wishfulfilment of "A hero is you, thanks for saving the universe" that the kind of people seek, who don't want to man up and follow their moral compass in their day to day lives.

[Mage One]

This is how my frist Hawke saw it:

If a random blood mage had been the one who blew up The Chantry, I wouldn't have thought twice about killing him/her. Once I considered that, he got the knife. He was wrong to make his opening strike against innocents, and I couldn't trust he wouldn't do similar or worse again in the future when he deemed it worthy. You can say the clergy isn't innocent, but what about adherents there to pray? What if Leandra had been alive and visiting the Chantry? Remember, even Anders admits he killed innocents, he just claims it was worth it. His moral compass isn't exactly reliable, though. He almost killed (or killed depending on how it went for you) an innocent mage he wanted to save, something he admitted was wrong. Saying that was Justice ignores his admission that he and Justice are the same. Again, he has no control of his morals at this point, and there was no telling what he might decide is necessary in the future. He wasn't right to do what he did, and he probably wasn't safe to anyone around him.

That said, my apostate Hawke who feels nothing but bitterness towards The Chantry will very likely let him live.

Edit:  Added words in bold for clarity.

Modifié par Mage One, 20 avril 2011 - 04:06 .

[Sabariel]

The Chantry is "closed" at night. The Chantry blew at night. There wouldn't be civvies in the Chantry at night. We see Elthina and a handful of templars in the Chantry during the cutscene. Unseen, there would have probably been Sisters and Mothers in the Chantry as well.

[cihimi]

Eye for an eye. That is Justice. Anders was insane. A psychopath with a hero complex, plain and simple. He deserved the knife. Good luck with that "name to serve as inspiration" bull crap.