414 réponses à ce sujet

[Octan92]

After thinking it over the most practical thing to do is kill Anders. He appears to be losing the battle of wills to Justice and Justice is too dangerous to be allowed to remain. If Justice is willing to take innocent lives once, what's to stop him from doing it again.

I think Justice can be reasoned with. However, the people best suited to do that, the warden and, in my opinion, Velanna, are not readily available.

[Rifneno]

Octan92 wrote...

After thinking it over the most practical thing to do is kill Anders. He appears to be losing the battle of wills to Justice and Justice is too dangerous to be allowed to remain. If Justice is willing to take innocent lives once, what's to stop him from doing it again.

I think Justice can be reasoned with. However, the people best suited to do that, the warden and, in my opinion, Velanna, are not readily available.

Velanna?  ...  Seriously?

[Rinji the Bearded]

Rifneno wrote...

Octan92 wrote...

After thinking it over the most practical thing to do is kill Anders. He appears to be losing the battle of wills to Justice and Justice is too dangerous to be allowed to remain. If Justice is willing to take innocent lives once, what's to stop him from doing it again.

I think Justice can be reasoned with. However, the people best suited to do that, the warden and, in my opinion, Velanna, are not readily available.

Velanna?  ...  Seriously?

Haha, oh man.  Maker help all the humans in Velanna's way if she were possessed by Justice.

There really isn't any reasoning with Justice... he's an amalgation of the feelings of humans, less like a free-thinking entity on his own. 

Also, LOL @ this poll.  The choice of other is marked by (preferably choose one of the above) ... I didn't kill Anders, but I didn't let him go for either of the second reasons.  So preferably I should have chosen one of those reasons?

I let him live so he wouldn't become a martyr.

Modifié par RinjiRenee, 20 avril 2011 - 04:43 .

[Cutlass Jack]

RinjiRenee wrote...

Haha, oh man.  Maker help all the humans in Velanna's way if she were possessed by Justice.

There really isn't any reasoning with Justice... he's an amalgation of the feelings of humans, less like a free-thinking entity on his own. 

Yeah Velanna would have been the only choice worse than Anders quite honestly. Wow what a mess that would be. But on the plus side, it wouldn't take 7 years before she was Murder Knifed.

Nathaniel would have been the more logical choice. One needed a shot at redemption, the other wanted to learn what it was like to be human. That and the fact Nathan was the actual one who brought up the whole 'willing host' topic in Awakening. In such a way that it sounded like he was considering it.

Modifié par Cutlass Jack, 20 avril 2011 - 04:47 .

[Octan92]

Rifneno wrote...

Octan92 wrote...

After thinking it over the most practical thing to do is kill Anders. He appears to be losing the battle of wills to Justice and Justice is too dangerous to be allowed to remain. If Justice is willing to take innocent lives once, what's to stop him from doing it again.

I think Justice can be reasoned with. However, the people best suited to do that, the warden and, in my opinion, Velanna, are not readily available.

Velanna?  ...  Seriously?

Based on their conversations, she seems the best to call him out as a hypocrite. I am willing to admit the flipside though that she could being laughing hysterically at the fall of the Chantry.

[Rinji the Bearded]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

RinjiRenee wrote...

Haha, oh man.  Maker help all the humans in Velanna's way if she were possessed by Justice.

There really isn't any reasoning with Justice... he's an amalgation of the feelings of humans, less like a free-thinking entity on his own. 

Yeah Velanna would have been the only choice worse than Anders quite honestly. Wow what a mess that would be. But on the plus side, it wouldn't take 7 years before she was Murder Knifed.

Nathaniel would have been the more logical choice. One needed a shot at redemption, the other wanted to learn what it was like to be human. That and the fact Nathan was the actual one who brought up the whole 'willing host' topic in Awakening. In such a way that it sounded like he was considering it.

Well, actually, Nate probably even knows *less* about the nature of spirits of demons, so I'm guessing that this would have been a horrible choice as well.  Also he was kinda ignorant (not really his fault, he isn't a mage) for even thinking such a union could work.

Octan92 wrote...

Based
on their conversations, she seems the best to call him out as a
hypocrite. I am willing to admit the flipside though that she could
being laughing hysterically at the fall of the Chantry.

It's hard to call a spirit a hypocrite when he's more of an abstract concept rather than an actual person.  It's like trying to yell at a manifestation of someone's thoughts rather than at the person from where those thoughts originated.

Modifié par RinjiRenee, 20 avril 2011 - 04:57 .

[Rifneno]

RinjiRenee wrote...

Haha, oh man.  Maker help all the humans in Velanna's way if she were possessed by Justice.

Velanna + Justice = Kefka.

There really isn't any reasoning with Justice... he's an amalgation of the feelings of humans, less like a free-thinking entity on his own.

I don't know about that.  The Warden reasons with him pretty well.  He begs you not to abandon Amaranthine (which alone indicates how far he's fallen in DA2, really) and if the Warden reasons with him he'll accept it and admit the Warden knows the more complex workings of this world better than he does.  He can also be convinced by a high coercion Warden that siding with the Architect is the right thing to do, while a Warden that isn't a very good talker will be attacked for allying with the enemy.  And those are just things he feels very strongly about, there's lots of smaller issues where you can convince Justice that he's wrong about something.

[MikoDoll]

Rifneno wrote...

Einherjar420 wrote...

I chose to let him live, and I kept him around. I hope for DLC or to continue his story in Dragon Age 3. I want to know more about how Vengeance corrupted him so much, and if there will ever be a way of freeing him from Vengeance. For I feel that it was Vengeance who destroyed the Chantry.

Yeah, it'd be great if they expand on Vengeance's corruption.  As it stands it doesn't hold up with the known lore.  No other spirit or demon has been changed by their host's personality.  And it's not like Justice didn't know what anger was until he merged with Anders, he specifically says in DAA "Such evil angers me, but I do not understand it."  (In reference to demons in case anyone is wondering)  It just doesn't make any sense as they have it now.

Hmm.  This is a stab in the dark, but I wonder if he was changed or corrupted somehow by the Countress' spell that drove him into the mortal world to begin with.  It may just have taken time to manifest, or only manifest when he left Kristoff's body.  Either way, I have a feeling that Justice corrupted Anders more than the other way around.

No I just think it was holes in writing. Again, Anders willingly chose to merge with justice, so all this about him not being able to be freed of him make no sense to me. Even if Justice was a corrupted, characters like Connor were capable of being freed from the demon due to willingly making a deal with the spirits as Anders did. One reason I also let him live is because I want to leave room open for Bioware to do "damage control" for a character that was once the humor and lightheartedness of the Awakening. I felt there were probably way too many holes in the chronological events concerning Anders/Justice's merging for it to well...be right.  Something feels off. Maybe Varric exaggerated a lot of details. He was after all using Anders as inspiration for a romance story.

[EmperorSahlertz]

The fact that you can "cure" some possessions does not appear to be common knowledge. So it is perfectly plausible that neither Anders nor Hawke had any idea he could be "cured". Anders could also be lying, to prevent any attempts from Hawke to cure him. The fact that he accepted Justice to possess him, but it turned into Vengeance within him, could also be a factor.

[Rinji the Bearded]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The fact that you can "cure" some possessions does not appear to be common knowledge. So it is perfectly plausible that neither Anders nor Hawke had any idea he could be "cured". Anders could also be lying, to prevent any attempts from Hawke to cure him. The fact that he accepted Justice to possess him, but it turned into Vengeance within him, could also be a factor.

I think Mr. Gaider commented that a spirit merging with you is much different than a demon possessing you, and that it is indeed permanent and cannot be "cured" by an exorcism or what have you.  Same for Wynne.

Rifneno wrote...

RinjiRenee wrote...

Haha, oh man.  Maker help all the humans in Velanna's way if she were possessed by Justice.

Velanna + Justice = Kefka.

There
really isn't any reasoning with Justice... he's an amalgation of the
feelings of humans, less like a free-thinking entity on his own.

I
don't know about that.  The Warden reasons with him pretty well.  He
begs you not to abandon Amaranthine (which alone indicates how far he's
fallen in DA2, really) and if the Warden reasons with him he'll accept
it and admit the Warden knows the more complex workings of this world
better than he does.  He can also be convinced by a high coercion Warden
that siding with the Architect is the right thing to do, while a Warden
that isn't a very good talker will be attacked for allying with the
enemy.  And those are just things he feels very strongly about, there's
lots of smaller issues where you can convince Justice that he's wrong
about something.

"HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE" - Kefka

Yeah, but that was one odd thing I found between Justice in DA:A and Justice in DA2... but then again, by the time Hawke finds Anders with Justice, the damage had already been done to Justice, and his "ears" were already pretty much shut.   I thought it was kind of sad that Justice himself had little to say about his experiences in DA:A, as he does seem capable of having memories.

Modifié par RinjiRenee, 20 avril 2011 - 07:48 .

[Sabriana]

Sorry, but I don't own any DLC or Exp packs. Anders is as new to me as Aveline or Varric. As a result, he's incredibly boring. He's a whiny zealot that Hawke can not even attempt to influence in any way.

She ignored him all the way through, and still he turned into an irredeemable terrorist. Because if she spares him, he acts like she approves. Bad programming and bad execution. If she could make him see that he was utterly wrong, I would approve. I just wish his death would "stick". Seeing how his eyes don't even glace over, I suspect we'll see him again.

Apparently death is not fatal in the DA universe, and that's just so very sad.

[KnightofPhoenix]

I am curious. If Anders targeted Templars only. What would you people think of him?

[Sabariel]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I am curious. If Anders targeted Templars only. What would you people think of him?

"Terr-wrist!" is my guess

[DeathStride]

Firstly, why do people keep referring to the spirit as "Justice"? He stopped being Justice the instant that he merged with Anders. The writers, Anders, and the codex have made quite clear that the spirit within(or part of) Anders is Vengeance. Justice would have never done half the things Anders/Vengeance does.

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I am curious. If Anders targeted Templars only. What would you people think of him?

I don't know who "you people" are, but personally I would have not been anywhere near as incensed by the whole matter. It would be significantly more "gray area" material since Templars are after all the direct agressors to the mages, there's no degrees of separation like there are with the Chantry, any governing bodies(Kings, Viscounts), or anybody who supports having Circles. One could make a significantly more convincing case to justify Anders' actions.

The whole "innocents/civilians" debate becomes a lot less of an issue. Not civilians- all Templars are part of a martial order and it's part of the job description that they might die in service, unlike civilians. Possibly not even innocents- Templars, like I mentioned above, are also the ones who directly enforce the current oppresive living conditions of the mages. I'd still not be OK with killing all the Templars since there are good apples and bad apples among them too. Good apple: Ser Thrask , Bad rotten foul foul apple: Ser Alrik.

All that being said, I wouldn't have been OK with Anders blowing up the Templars, but I also most definitely wouldn't have suggested Tranquility, death, etc. I would've reprimanded him but kept him alive and at my side.

Modifié par DeathStride, 20 avril 2011 - 09:12 .

[Dave of Canada]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I am curious. If Anders targeted Templars only. What would you people think of him?

Not sure who you're asking but...

My opinion of him would've been the same, he caused a war without looking at the long term and how the mages would feel. Everything that happened after it's destruction (me anulling the Circle) was me trying to clean his mess and hoping to stop it from spreading, it wouldn't have mattered if he killed templar or not.

My pro-mage Hawke who supported the mages everywhere sided with the templar after it, so... yeah.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 20 avril 2011 - 08:52 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Dave of Canada wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I am curious. If Anders targeted Templars only. What would you people think of him?

Not sure who you're asking but...

My opinion of him would've been the same, he caused a war without looking at the long term and how the mages would feel. Everything that happened after it's destruction (me anulling the Circle) was me trying to clean his mess and hoping to stop it from spreading, it wouldn't have mattered if he killed templar or not.

My pro-mage Hawke who supported the mages everywhere sided with the templar after it, so... yeah.

Asking everyone. Not trying to be snide or anything.

Yep same here.

[MikoDoll]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The fact that you can "cure" some possessions does not appear to be common knowledge. So it is perfectly
plausible that neither Anders nor Hawke had any idea he could be "cured". Anders could also be lying, to prevent any attempts from Hawke to cure him. The fact that he accepted Justice to possess him, but it
turned into Vengeance within him, could also be a factor.

1. The Circle seemed to, know how to cut off a possession by killing the demon in the fade. It was done for Connor who was too young for the Harrowing and because the circle owed the Wardens a huge favor. I think they know how to do it, but formal institutions wouldn't make the investment of  lyrium for just ANY mage who becomes an abomination. So no, I don't really think the information on how to do so would be reserved. You'd think given how prone mages are to demonic possession, that research for options regarding how to handle a demonic possession would be among the first things anyone learns. Even apprentice mages like Jowan had some idea in how to stop a demonic posession.

2. It's doubtful he was lying. When you go to save Fenryiel Justice notes he has not been to the fade in some time and had nothing to gain in going out of his way to mention that. However the demon possessing Connor had both a connection to the fade and the living world through his connection to a mortal in the fade. Stopping the posession meant going into the fade to kill the demon to sever the connection.

3. Justice's dialouge all throughout Awakening uses or approves characters using the actual word
"avenge" quite a bit.  Justice knew anger for atrocious crimes and even says he felt it. In Awakening his motivations were to avenge Kristoff. He had before supposedly merging with Anders made it very clear he wanted vengence towards those who'd been wronged. He was already been a spirit of vengence and communicated he understood vengence and justice to be essentially the same thing. So Anders' anger "changing" justice into vengence did not sound at all plausible. It sounded like an excuse to simply rewrite Anders' and Justice's personalities, rather than a likely consequence of the Justice inhabiting a living host.

Again when comparing him to other posessed mages there shouldn't have really been one personality that merges the two.  In awakening Anders had been confronted with Justice's call to help mages but cared more about his own life than causing a revolution. Justice being able to give Anders the power to help him fight templars wouldn't have been enough of a guarauntee he wouldn't die trying--which was the primary concern Anders had with doing that in Awakening.  Nor were Justice's powers in awakening so awesome and powerful, that they should've inspired Anders to think he could win with flying colors. So I honestly don't think the real Anders would've merged with him because the greatest obstacle towards inspiring motivation in Anders hadn't really been resolved.  The most likely candidate for a merging would've been Nathaniel--the guy who'd actually been talking to Justice about recieving a living host and encouraged him to consider the concept in a positive light.

4. The chronology is far too off for the merging of these two to have IMO made any sense. Anders does make the point that he did it to make sure Justice wasn't fighting in a corpse which limits Awakening epilouges can apply to DA2 down to those where Justice wasn't killed and had been recruited.Problem?  That makes it even more implausible Justice and Anders could ever have merged.

Modifié par MikoDoll, 20 avril 2011 - 09:33 .

[MikoDoll]

Ack how do you delete double posts??

Modifié par MikoDoll, 20 avril 2011 - 09:20 .

[Cutlass Jack]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I am curious. If Anders targeted Templars only. What would you people think of him?

Assuming you mean 'all templars' and not just 'abusive templars'?

If so my opinion would be unchanged. If he just did a Meredith or Ser Alrik size bomb I'd probably be fine with it. If he killed the Templars who were not abusing their position just because they were templars I'd have issue with it.

[Sabariel]

MikoDoll wrote...

Ack how do you delete double posts??

You can't. You can only edit them

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I am curious. If Anders targeted Templars only. What would you people think of him?

On a (slightly) more serious note I would think what I think of him now: dingus.

Modifié par Sabariel, 20 avril 2011 - 09:29 .

[BlueMew]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I am curious. If Anders targeted Templars only. What would you people think of him?

Not sure who you're asking but...

My opinion of him would've been the same, he caused a war without looking at the long term and how the mages would feel. Everything that happened after it's destruction (me anulling the Circle) was me trying to clean his mess and hoping to stop it from spreading, it wouldn't have mattered if he killed templar or not.

My pro-mage Hawke who supported the mages everywhere sided with the templar after it, so... yeah.

Asking everyone. Not trying to be snide or anything.

Yep same here.

In my game, it would have made little difference if Anders trageted the Chantry or the Templars themselves, although I suspect my Hawke might be a little less worse for wear. It would be slightly easier to accept, if you add up all the mage casualties by templar hands, or suicide because of the templars. 

As it is... yes, Hawke would likely have tried to stop Anders, but as there was no opportunity to do so, no way he's going to kill him over it. If it were just the Templars... well, he might have actually lent him a hand.

[Sabariel]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I am curious. If Anders targeted Templars only. What would you people think of him?

Assuming you mean 'all templars' and not just 'abusive templars'?

If so my opinion would be unchanged. If he just did a Meredith or Ser Alrik size bomb I'd probably be fine with it. If he killed the Templars who were not abusing their position just because they were templars I'd have issue with it.

I can just picture it...

Anders: Uh... could all the abusive, evil templars please stand on the left side of the Gallows? Nice, innocent templars, you stand on the right. Thanks. *lobs Red Beam of Death at the left side* Problem solved!

*sparkles and rainbows fall from the sky*

[Wulfram]

If Anders targetted the Templars, I wouldn't have much of a problem with it. Mages are entitled to fight back.

Of course, it wouldn't have worked. His act had to be monstrous, because if it wasn't monstrous it wouldn't have destroyed the chance of peace.

[Ryzaki]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I am curious. If Anders targeted Templars only. What would you people think of him?

Assuming you mean 'all templars' and not just 'abusive templars'?

If so my opinion would be unchanged. If he just did a Meredith or Ser Alrik size bomb I'd probably be fine with it. If he killed the Templars who were not abusing their position just because they were templars I'd have issue with it.

Agreed. 

At least though on the rivalry path he did it because he was possessed instead of having his tunnelvision and thrusting the mages into a bloody war. So it makes it a smidge better. <_< 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 20 avril 2011 - 09:35 .

[MikoDoll]

Templars are given the responsibility to hunt down mages and force them into a life where they have little to no rights and are at the mercy of templars and the Chantry. Even templars who don't actively abuse mages should have some kind of idea of what they're dragging mages into. Given the duties templars agree to perform there really is no "innocent" templar in this situation, unless they have actively made an effort to show that they've since abandoned the duties they'd swore to uphold.

Wulfram wrote...

If Anders targetted the Templars, I wouldn't have much of a problem with it. Mages are entitled to fight back.

Of
course, it wouldn't have worked. His act had to be monstrous, because
if it wasn't monstrous it wouldn't have destroyed the chance of
peace.

Anders didn't feel he destroyed a chance at peace.
He felt he'd destroyed the pretense both sides were making that they
could find a peaceful solution when they'd been there for years and the
only thing to come of it were tensions. He targetted the Chantry which
is the force that encourages the oppressive conditions to exist through
their doctrines or apathy in stopping abuses towards mages. They, not
just the templars insist in putting mages in the circle, not vouching to
give them much rights once there. It is they who often raise their
templars to go hunting to drag mages to the circle if they don't go to
prison willingly.  The templars are members of chantry that act as it's
muscle, they are not a separate entity.

Modifié par MikoDoll, 20 avril 2011 - 09:55 .