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[Sabariel]

Ryzaki wrote...

Cutlass Jack wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I am curious. If Anders targeted Templars only. What would you people think of him?

Assuming you mean 'all templars' and not just 'abusive templars'?

If so my opinion would be unchanged. If he just did a Meredith or Ser Alrik size bomb I'd probably be fine with it. If he killed the Templars who were not abusing their position just because they were templars I'd have issue with it.

Agreed. 

At least though on the rivalry path he did it because he was possessed instead of having his tunnelvision and thrusting the mages into a bloody war. So it makes it a smidge better. <_< 

He's still possessed in the Friend Path, he just doesn't fight against it as much.

[cihimi]

Anders really doesn't want to be free of Justice (Vengeance), even if there was a way. He knows that only with Justice controlling the reins does he have any semblance of fight when confronting templars. In the end, he blindly believed that there was no chance of any rational dealings with the templars and held on to this flimsy justification of his irrational act.

And if, by the off chance, that there was a rational course to be taken by both sides, he still would not take it since this will destroy all of what is left of his "cause", his reason for living...so to speak. <cheek>

He was just insane.

Modifié par cihimi, 20 avril 2011 - 09:54 .

[Ryzaki]

Sabariel wrote...
He's still possessed in the Friend Path, he just doesn't fight against it as much.

That's the difference. He gives in and wants it on the Friendpath. On the rival path he's pretty much a prisoner in his body that's why to me it's more forgiveable. He tried to stop himself on rivalry. He just failed. He's heartbroken about it on rivalry and isn't all "This was necessary!" he's more "I've done a terrible terrible thing and I need to fix this....somehow." 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 20 avril 2011 - 09:55 .

[Sabariel]

Ryzaki wrote...

Sabariel wrote...
He's still possessed in the Friend Path, he just doesn't fight against it as much.

That's the difference. He gives in and wants it on the Friendpath. On the rival path he's pretty much a prisoner in his body that's why to me it's more forgiveable. He tried to stop himself on rivalry. He just failed. 

I never really got the feeling that he wanted it (the possession, I mean). He still seems pretty freaked out by the idea on occassion. Unless that was a bug and I was getting Rivalry dialogue instead...

Modifié par Sabariel, 20 avril 2011 - 09:57 .

[Ryzaki]

Sabariel wrote...
I never really got the feeling that he wanted it (the possession, I mean). He still seems pretty freaked out by the idea on occassion. Unless that was a bug and I was getting Rivalry dialogue instead...

No he wants to blow up the Chantry on friendship path I mean. XD 

He's a lot more freaked out in rivalry though. Mostly because Vengeance is causing him to have blackouts and lose control of himself more often. 

[MikoDoll]

cihimi wrote...

Anders really doesn't want to be free of Justice (Vengeance), even if there was a way. He knows that only with Justice controlling the reins does he have any semblance of fight when confronting templars.

Anders in awakening was more interested in personal survival, and actually saw the Circle of Magi as necessary when discussing it with Wynne. He didn't like Chantry oversight, but he saw that the Circle had uses that couldn't be ignored. I do not think Anders would agree to this at all. Justice puts his life in more physical danger and would go to an extreme far greater than Anders had wanted by disolving the Circle.

In the end, he blindly believed that there was no chance of any rational dealings with the templars and held on to this flimsy justification of his irrational act. 

Considering he spent years waiting for rational dealings and that things were getting worse--not better I'd say he wasn't blind in not thinking peace wouldn't have happened. And seeing how the idol affected Bartrand, I doubt Meredith would've found a peaceful solution either. Not that Anders needed to know Meredith had it to think she was mentally slipping.

Assuming you mean 'all templars' and not just 'abusive templars'? If so my opinion would be unchanged. If he just did a Meredith or Ser Alrik size bomb I'd probably be fine with it. If he killed the Templars who were not abusing their position just because they were templars I'd have issue with it.

Meredith rallied her templars to pretty much go Magi profiling on everyone in  the Circle to hunt blood mages. She made a sweeping generalization and none of the templars questioned her order. By their wilingness to  follow her, they should be willing to treated under similar terms. If Anders saw  for example, the Templars revolting against injustice in bulk that would've probably made him feel that there was a lot more hope in comingto a resolution that gave mages more rights and freedoms.

Modifié par MikoDoll, 20 avril 2011 - 10:02 .

[Sabariel]

Ryzaki wrote...

Sabariel wrote...
I never really got the feeling that he wanted it (the possession, I mean). He still seems pretty freaked out by the idea on occassion. Unless that was a bug and I was getting Rivalry dialogue instead...

No he wants to blow up the Chantry on friendship path I mean. XD 

He's a lot more freaked out in rivalry though. Mostly because Vengeance is causing him to have blackouts and lose control of himself more often. 

Ooh. Okay. I got it now. I'm having a slow day obviously. lol

...tbh the Rivalry Path freaked me out, especially when Justice appears at random and tells me to eff off

Modifié par Sabariel, 20 avril 2011 - 10:02 .

[Ryzaki]

Sabariel wrote...
Ooh. Okay. I got it now. I'm having a slow day obviously. lol

...tbh the Rivalry Path freaked me out, especially when Justice appears at random and tells me to eff off

I loved the rivarly path because of it. I felt like I was actually changing Anders mind and getting him to reject Vengeance. 

Alas. It's bugged so the Last Straw defaults to friendship. Bleh.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Anders' obsession with the mages cause has obviously warped his moral compass even before blowing up the Chantry. He'd rather defend blood mages who raised the dead to attack anyone on sight and kill the one Templar who risked his life to save them despite that. And he only seems upset about Fenris trying to kill his sister after he learns she's a mage, as if it's only wrong if she's a magic user.

Exactly how he reacts to Hawke and Justice on friendship and rivalry is a little puzzling because he seems to change his mind several times, but it seems to me that if your friends that it's his idea to blow up the Chantry and if you aren't it's Justice's. Or at least he seems to think it's his idea.

[Ryzaki]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Anders' obsession with the mages cause has obviously warped his moral compass even before blowing up the Chantry. He'd rather defend blood mages who raised the dead to attack anyone on sight and kill the one Templar who risked his life to save them despite that. And he only seems upset about Fenris trying to kill his sister after he learns she's a mage, as if it's only wrong if she's a magic user.

Exactly how he reacts to Hawke and Justice on friendship and rivalry is a little puzzling because he seems to change his mind several times, but it seems to me that if your friends that it's his idea to blow up the Chantry and if you aren't it's Justice's. Or at least he seems to think it's his idea.

It's because the endgame rivalry path is bugged so it defaults to friendship. That's why it looks like he's wish washing and not making any sense.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

It's not just that. Even on the friendship path, he seems wishy washy. After the incident with Ser Alrik he's so horrified he almost pretty much just gives up his Mage Freedom quest and considers appealing to the Grand Cleric. The very next time you talk to him (which can be the very next second if you want) he's talking about leading a revolution to overthrow he Chantry.

[Ryzaki]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

It's not just that. Even on the friendship path, he seems wishy washy. After the incident with Ser Alrik he's so horrified he almost pretty much just gives up his Mage Freedom quest and considers appealing to the Grand Cleric. The very next time you talk to him (which can be the very next second if you want) he's talking about leading a revolution to overthrow he Chantry.

Yeah I always took that as Justice needing timeto convince him that they were right. It kind of works in the rivalry path until you give him a "dude no." chat after he plants the bomb.

[Rifneno]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I am curious. If Anders targeted Templars only. What would you people think of him?

Assuming you mean 'all templars' and not just 'abusive templars'?

If so my opinion would be unchanged. If he just did a Meredith or Ser Alrik size bomb I'd probably be fine with it. If he killed the Templars who were not abusing their position just because they were templars I'd have issue with it.

The templars are a military organization.  There's no grey area for attacking a military organization that is doing bad things.  You might as well claim that we shouldn't have bombed military targets in Iraq and instead went in full force, suffering heavy casualties, to capture them all and give them a psychological evaluation and decide on a case-by-case basis.  No.  Military targets are up for grabs.

[BlueMew]

Ryzaki wrote...

Sabariel wrote...
Ooh. Okay. I got it now. I'm having a slow day obviously. lol

...tbh the Rivalry Path freaked me out, especially when Justice appears at random and tells me to eff off

I loved the rivarly path because of it. I felt like I was actually changing Anders mind and getting him to reject Vengeance. 

Yes, that's kind of weird. Since if you agree with him on most things, there's not much room in the Friendship path to be a 'real' friend and get him to actively fight Vengeance.

Thing is, I cannot imagine that despite the good feeling that Hawke's Friendship support may give him, reality won't kick in at some point. Some of the dialogue hints at that too, depending on Hawke's reaction to the Chantry explosion.

Still wish you could tell him to fight the stupid spirit on the Friend path too though, then you could at least prepare him for that. Sadly, that's not an option if you agree with the whole mage oppression thing

[Mage One]

I may be in the minority here, but this coming from Justice being corrupted didn't surprise me at all. Personally, I felt from some of his banter in DA:A Justice was slipping upon exposure to the physical world. While it seemed to me like the physical world was doing him harm, he was becoming more attached to it. to the point where he admits he's not sure if he wants to return to the fade any longer. Keep in mind it's mostly a demon's desire for the physical world that makes them behave as they do. Also, despite his protests, demons and spirits are really just two sides of the same coin. By the end of DA:A, Justice honestly had me worried for his future. As sad as it is, then, I was able to buy Justice's slow corruption.

[Addai]

Rifneno wrote...
The templars are a military organization.  There's no grey area for attacking a military organization that is doing bad things.  You might as well claim that we shouldn't have bombed military targets in Iraq and instead went in full force, suffering heavy casualties, to capture them all and give them a psychological evaluation and decide on a case-by-case basis.  No.  Military targets are up for grabs.

So why did he not bomb the templar area of the Gallows?

Modifié par Addai67, 22 avril 2011 - 03:05 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

Addai67 wrote...

Rifneno wrote...
The templars are a military organization.  There's no grey area for attacking a military organization that is doing bad things.  You might as well claim that we shouldn't have bombed military targets in Iraq and instead went in full force, suffering heavy casualties, to capture them all and give them a psychological evaluation and decide on a case-by-case basis.  No.  Military targets are up for grabs.

So why did he not bomb the templar area of the Gallows?

That would have been logical.

[Plaintiff]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Rifneno wrote...
The templars are a military organization.  There's no grey area for attacking a military organization that is doing bad things.  You might as well claim that we shouldn't have bombed military targets in Iraq and instead went in full force, suffering heavy casualties, to capture them all and give them a psychological evaluation and decide on a case-by-case basis.  No.  Military targets are up for grabs.

So why did he not bomb the templar area of the Gallows?

That would have been logical.

Assuming he can control the size of the explosion (I'm guessing he cannot, because the recipe calls for a certain amount of both ingredients), the Templar Hall is within the Gallows, is directly connected to areas mages frequent, and mages pass through it often. Orsino's office is DIRECTLY opposite Meredith's. Anders is looking to free the mages, not blow them all to smithereens.

Besides which, Ander's goal is not to "kill templars", that won't solve ****. The Chantry is the root of the problem, the Chantry is what gives templars their power in the first place, and it's the overwhelming authority of the Chantry that keeps mages from fighting back. When you want to kill a snake, you don't go for the tail.

[DeathStride]

Plaintiff wrote...

Besides which, Ander's goal is not to "kill templars", that won't solve ****. The Chantry is the root of the problem, the Chantry is what gives templars their power in the first place, and it's the overwhelming authority of the Chantry that keeps mages from fighting back. When you want to kill a snake, you don't go for the tail.

Because that worked so exceedingly well, with the Templars simply deserting the Chantry en masse. Cutting off the "head" certainly was highly effective.

Anders' plan was never a precise tactical operation to decapitate the leadership of the oppressors. He had a simple and atrocious goal: remove any and all possibility of compromise by murdering countless civilians/innocents in cold blood. That, on the other hand, worked quite effectively.

Modifié par DeathStride, 22 avril 2011 - 08:18 .

[Plaintiff]

DeathStride wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Besides which, Ander's goal is not to "kill templars", that won't solve ****. The Chantry is the root of the problem, the Chantry is what gives templars their power in the first place, and it's the overwhelming authority of the Chantry that keeps mages from fighting back. When you want to kill a snake, you don't go for the tail.

Because that worked so exceedingly well, with the Templars simply deserting the Chantry en masse. Cutting off the "head" certainly was highly effective.

Anders' plan was never a precise tactical operation to decapitate the leadership of the oppressors. He had a simple and atrocious goal: remove any and all possibility of compromise by murdering countless civilians/innocents in cold blood. That, on the other hand, worked quite effectively.

Whether or not it succeeded is beside the point, the reasons for him choosing to blow up the Chantry instead of the Gallows were obvious. It was effective, extremely so. Anders wasn't expecting the Chantry and the Templars to just bend over and take it, he wanted a war, he wanted to force a conflict, and he succeeded.

There was no possibility of compromise. Elthina's idea of 'compromise' was to maintain the status quo, which is obviously broken. That's not a compromise in any real definition of the term, it's just allowing continued oppression and abuse while feigning sympathy. And even if she'd been willing to give a little leeway, the Divine would've put a stop to it before long, violently if necessary. Leliana tells us that an Exalted March is already being considered before Anders takes any action at all. Anders' only looks worse because he got there first.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 22 avril 2011 - 08:52 .

[Wulfram]

Addai67 wrote...

So why did he not bomb the templar area of the Gallows?

Because people wouldn't have been sufficiently outraged and thus it would fail to provoke the war he wanted.  And because Elthina was a problem, what with her belief in peace and compromise.

[MikoDoll]

Faulty compromise, you mean. Chantry also is the force behind the Templar order. So you can't really remove them from the equation if they refuse to do anything.

[Gibb_Shepard]

Just wondering, by the end of Act 3; did Anders act solely upon HIS desires, or did Justice heavily sway his decision?

[Rifneno]

Wulfram wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

So why did he not bomb the templar area of the Gallows?

Because people wouldn't have been sufficiently outraged and thus it would fail to provoke the war he wanted.  And because Elthina was a problem, what with her belief in peace and compromise.

You mean her turning a blind eye to her templars running amok with rape and murder.  I forget where I heard this, but excellent quote, "true peace is not just the absence of conflict, it's the presence of justice."  ("Justice" pun not intended).  Elthina had zero interest in doing her duty to keep the templars under control.  It's quite appropriate that Justice kills Elthina, because Elthina made a living out of preventing justice.

[Sabariel]

DeathStride wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Besides which, Ander's goal is not to "kill templars", that won't solve ****. The Chantry is the root of the problem, the Chantry is what gives templars their power in the first place, and it's the overwhelming authority of the Chantry that keeps mages from fighting back. When you want to kill a snake, you don't go for the tail.

Because that worked so exceedingly well, with the Templars simply deserting the Chantry en masse. Cutting off the "head" certainly was highly effective.

Anders' plan was never a precise tactical operation to decapitate the leadership of the oppressors. He had a simple and atrocious goal: remove any and all possibility of compromise by murdering countless civilians/innocents in cold blood. That, on the other hand, worked quite effectively.

There was never going to be compromise. Elthina had seven years to act and she did nothing. The Grand Cleric never would have acted. If Anders hadn't gone boom I'm sure  Meredith would have started the war instead. Did you see the look she gave Elthina at the start of Act III? The first time I played I was certain she was going to chop the Grand Cleric's head off right there. Meredith also called for the Right of Annulment at the start of Act III. How long before Meredith's mind was so poisoned that she didn't care about the Maker or the Grand Cleric or the Chantry and wiped out every mage in the Circle? Wiped out anyone and everyone who opposed her? Wiped out the Grand Cleric for telling her to be a "good girl"? Not long, if I had to guess. And what, do you imagine, would "Justice's" response be to this? The templar/mage conflict was always going to end violently; in war. Over 900 years of bitterness and resentment just doesn't go away in a shower of sparkly rainbows and "compromise". Although... that would have been prettier...

Modifié par Sabariel, 22 avril 2011 - 11:55 .