414 réponses à ce sujet

[mesmerizedish]

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

Just wondering, by the end of Act 3; did Anders act solely upon HIS desires, or did Justice heavily sway his decision?

There was definitely a lot of Justice going on. I hear that if you've rivaled him, Justice can even jump out and b*tch-slap you during his quest to distract Elthina.

[Rifneno]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

Just wondering, by the end of Act 3; did Anders act solely upon HIS desires, or did Justice heavily sway his decision?

There was definitely a lot of Justice going on. I hear that if you've rivaled him, Justice can even jump out and b*tch-slap you during his quest to distract Elthina.

I particularly liked the "You have given in to sloth!" speech.  I kind of want to do an Anders rivalmance one of these days just to troll Justice.

[Deputy Secretary of Awesome]

I let him live. I would have preferred to have reached a compromise between the Mages and Templar, but Anders was right, the Chantry and the Grand Cleric were the vehicle for any compromise, and that would have just been a continuation of the unbearable status quo.

The Circle is at its heart a broken and corrupt institution. It has to be reformed or swept away. I would not have targeted the Chantry myself, but Anders made the move I could not. It would have been hypocritical of me to turn on Anders after such a bold act. He made his move, I threw my lot in with the Mages, and that was that.

[Sidney]

Deputy Secretary of Awesome wrote...

I let him live. I would have preferred to have reached a compromise between the Mages and Templar, but Anders was right, the Chantry and the Grand Cleric were the vehicle for any compromise, and that would have just been a continuation of the unbearable status quo.

The Circle is at its heart a broken and corrupt institution. It has to be reformed or swept away. I would not have targeted the Chantry myself, but Anders made the move I could not. It would have been hypocritical of me to turn on Anders after such a bold act. He made his move, I threw my lot in with the Mages, and that was that.

I killed him despite being on the mages side and his friend and an apostate myself. You can't just go blowing up stuff like that and making the mages an even bigger target-- oh and you sure as heck can't lie to me when doing it. It isn't about hypocrisy it is about pragmatism. While the knee jerk reaction is for freedom the DA* series has shown us over and over that the mage threat is very real and while Meredith was BSC by the end of the game her basic fears that the idol built off of are not. There's a compromise in there somewhere and the "Tranquil Solution" isn't it and neither is Anders chaos theory.

[Plaintiff]

Sidney wrote...

Deputy Secretary of Awesome wrote...

I let him live. I would have preferred to have reached a compromise between the Mages and Templar, but Anders was right, the Chantry and the Grand Cleric were the vehicle for any compromise, and that would have just been a continuation of the unbearable status quo.

The Circle is at its heart a broken and corrupt institution. It has to be reformed or swept away. I would not have targeted the Chantry myself, but Anders made the move I could not. It would have been hypocritical of me to turn on Anders after such a bold act. He made his move, I threw my lot in with the Mages, and that was that.

I killed him despite being on the mages side and his friend and an apostate myself. You can't just go blowing up stuff like that and making the mages an even bigger target-- oh and you sure as heck can't lie to me when doing it. It isn't about hypocrisy it is about pragmatism. While the knee jerk reaction is for freedom the DA* series has shown us over and over that the mage threat is very real and while Meredith was BSC by the end of the game her basic fears that the idol built off of are not. There's a compromise in there somewhere and the "Tranquil Solution" isn't it and neither is Anders chaos theory.

It seemed pretty obvious to me that the 'mage threat' generated as a result of their abuse and mistreatment by the rest of the human populace at large. They act out and turn to blood magic and demons because it feels like the only way out. 

I agree that there is a better way, a compromise. But said compromise cannot and will not be reached while the Chantry is still in power. Prior to the events of DA2, the Chantry had no need or desire to compromise. It had all the power and the mages had none. Some way or another, there had to be conflict, something had to happen to tip the scales, to provoke the mages into action and give them some sort of leverage. They had to start fighting back in a real sense, politely-worded letters don't cut it.

[Sidney]

Plaintiff wrote...

It seemed pretty obvious to me that the 'mage threat' generated as a result of their abuse and mistreatment by the rest of the human populace at large. They act out and turn to blood magic and demons because it feels like the only way out.

No, mages abusing people started long before the Chantry existed in the Imperium. Mages were cut loose and doing lots of not so nice things back then. The Chantry's "serve man not rule him" bit is a response to that.  Why Blood Magic is anymore of a way out than Elemental Magic I'm not sure. It really feel like drug abuse among doctors - people who think they can control the problem unlike everyone else. The problem is that possessions and abominations happen regardless - see the kid in the first game and he wasn't being oppressed or abused. You can't make the Chantry not a part of the solution because it is there and a major part of life in Thedas.

[Rifneno]

Sidney wrote...

No, mages abusing people started long before the Chantry existed in the Imperium. Mages were cut loose and doing lots of not so nice things back then. The Chantry's "serve man not rule him" bit is a response to that.  Why Blood Magic is anymore of a way out than Elemental Magic I'm not sure. It really feel like drug abuse among doctors - people who think they can control the problem unlike everyone else. The problem is that possessions and abominations happen regardless - see the kid in the first game and he wasn't being oppressed or abused. You can't make the Chantry not a part of the solution because it is there and a major part of life in Thedas.

1.  Are you American?  Because by your logic, you should be locked up for what your ancestors did to the Indians.
2.  Andraste said "serve man and not rule over him" not "imprison all mages and have drug addicts guard them but don't bother with any internal affairs to watch over the watchers, it's totally okay if they murder and rape and stuff."
3.  If you don't know why blood magic is considered bad, you should probably read a codex or something.  Or 60 of them.  Me thinks you missed a whole lot.
4.  No, Connor was denied access to a decent education on how to use and control his powers because of the Chantry's extremist methods and in turn got suckered in by a demon.
5.  The Chantry won't be a major part of life in Thedas when Plaintiff and I are done.  

[Plaintiff]

Sidney wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

It seemed pretty obvious to me that the 'mage threat' generated as a result of their abuse and mistreatment by the rest of the human populace at large. They act out and turn to blood magic and demons because it feels like the only way out.

No, mages abusing people started long before the Chantry existed in the Imperium. Mages were cut loose and doing lots of not so nice things back then. The Chantry's "serve man not rule him" bit is a response to that.  Why Blood Magic is anymore of a way out than Elemental Magic I'm not sure. It really feel like drug abuse among doctors - people who think they can control the problem unlike everyone else. The problem is that possessions and abominations happen regardless - see the kid in the first game and he wasn't being oppressed or abused. You can't make the Chantry not a part of the solution because it is there and a major part of life in Thedas.

Blood Magic is a way out because templars aren't as effective against it and it doesn't require lyrium to use, which is controlled by the Chantry. Blood Magic is not inherently evil, the Chantry preaches it as such because it can't control it.

Andraste, whose teachings the Chantry is based on, was likely a mage herself (the Chantry claims her powers were from the Maker, but there's no proof yet that he even exists, magic is a much more plausible theory). Her teachings have been warped in the centuries that have passed since she lived and I doubt very much that she would approve of people endorsing what is basically a new form of slavery in her name. Magic is meant to serve man but all that means is that it should be used for the betterment of mankind in general, nowhere in her teachings does Andraste say "thou shalt lock mages in towers and treat them like ****". Mages are part of man, they're not a separate species and they deserve the same rights as such.

I can very easily say that the Chantry is not "part of the solution". I think it's pretty obvious that the Chantry is most of the problem. The Chantry controls the Circle and the Templars and its blatant bias against mages and magic does more to cause demonic possession and abominations than it does to prevent it. Because of the Chantry, mages are not properly trained in how to resist demons, indeed in order to graduate they just get chucked into the Fade and are basically told to wing it. Refusing to educate them just ensures more will fail. Because of the Chantry, mage children are yanked from their families at young ages and placed in a tense, hostile environment, breeding the exact sort of emotional distress that demons prey on. Because of the Chantry, mages are alienated from the rest of humanity and are subjected to abuses that go unpunished, causing them to fester with resentment and hate, provoking them to turn to demons for the power they need to exact revenge.

You say we can't just get rid of the Chantry because it's a major part of life in Thedas. That's exactly why it should be got rid of. The Chantry has too much power and it abuses it blatantly. It's a power-hungry, bloodthirsty institution, riddled with hypocrisy.

[Sidney]

Rifneno wrote...

1.  Are you American?  Because by your logic, you should be locked up for what your ancestors did to the Indians.
2.  Andraste said "serve man and not rule over him" not "imprison all mages and have drug addicts guard them but don't bother with any internal affairs to watch over the watchers, it's totally okay if they murder and rape and stuff."
3.  If you don't know why blood magic is considered bad, you should probably read a codex or something.  Or 60 of them.  Me thinks you missed a whole lot.
4.  No, Connor was denied access to a decent education on how to use and control his powers because of the Chantry's extremist methods and in turn got suckered in by a demon.
5.  The Chantry won't be a major part of life in Thedas when Plaintiff and I are done.  

1. No and all I was respodning too was that mages do what they do in response to what has been done to them.
2. I already said I sided over the templars with the mages in an imperfect world but the solution is not as black and white as you want it to be. Mages are dangerous and in fact might be inherently dangerous. The templars are the wrong answer but what Anders did won't help things.
3. I know why it is considered bad what I don't know based on what we see in game why any mage dabbles in it since the blood mage tree isn't any better than the elemental tree - I know in cutscnes and such it does all kinds of crazy crap that it doesn't really do in the game. There's no good reason to turn to blood magic other than to dabble with demons.
4.  He wasn't denied anything by the chantry, he was denied access to that education by his mother but it doesn't much matter since the circle education doesn't seem to stop possessions terribly well at all.
5. You will lose, you can't fight city hall and the Chantry is a lot bigger than city hall. What you want is a bloodbath.

[Sumerisle]

Anders's choice was miscalculated, irresponsible and misguided. He should fleed to the Tevinter Imperium instead. He could have been living peacefully there, even he could turn himself in a blood mage without regrets, and plan a proper revolution, war, or wathever he intented to do. Starting a fatherless, planless revolution is like condemn the poor mages to a certain death, and that doesn't do any good to his cause.
I don't see the chantry as "evil", just the people who were ruling the Templars at the moment (Templar Meredith, etc.). Mages in the circle of Magi back in Ferelden are well organized, and have good relationship with the templars (Knight-Commander Greagoir is a friend of the First Enchanter).
I think the mages should dedicate a lot of time researching the root of all problems: a way to prevent the abominations. That is studying the fade, create spells, wards or artifacts to keep the demons away from the mages. The tranquil method is a temporary and undesirable solution. With that problem gone, the chantry would lift some pressure off them, and maybe give them some freedom.

[Plaintiff]

Sumerisle wrote...

Anders's choice was miscalculated, irresponsible and misguided. He should fleed to the Tevinter Imperium instead. He could have been living peacefully there, even he could turn himself in a blood mage without regrets, and plan a proper revolution, war, or wathever he intented to do. Starting a fatherless, planless revolution is like condemn the poor mages to a certain death, and that doesn't do any good to his cause.
I don't see the chantry as "evil", just the people who were ruling the Templars at the moment (Templar Meredith, etc.). Mages in the circle of Magi back in Ferelden are well organized, and have good relationship with the templars (Knight-Commander Greagoir is a friend of the First Enchanter).
I think the mages should dedicate a lot of time researching the root of all problems: a way to prevent the abominations. That is studying the fade, create spells, wards or artifacts to keep the demons away from the mages. The tranquil method is a temporary and undesirable solution. With that problem gone, the chantry would lift some pressure off them, and maybe give them some freedom.

Anders is not a blood mage. He abhors blood magic and he does not like the Tevinters. He may've indeed had an easier time if he lived there, but he does not want to rule Ferelden, he wants the same rights as a regular man.

The mages are hardly "condemned to death". They have immense power at their fingertips, the only thing stopping them from using it is the Chantry's monopoly on lyrium and the Templar presence.

At present, mages can only do what the Chantry and Templars allow. It's all very well to say that they should "research the Fade more". But according to Chantry teachings, going into the Fade is what screwed Thedas over and created Darkspawn in the first place. It is extremely unlikely that they would allow much in-depth research in that area. The Chantry's power is based on the fact that most of Thedas believes in its teachings without question. Studying the Fade risks uncovering new knowledge that would contradict Chantry teachings and expose them as lies.

[Sumerisle]

Plaintiff wrote...

Anders is not a blood mage. He abhors blood magic and he does not like the Tevinters. He may've indeed had an easier time if he lived there, but he does not want to rule Ferelden, he wants the same rights as a regular man.

The mages are hardly "condemned to death". They have immense power at their fingertips, the only thing stopping them from using it is the Chantry's monopoly on lyrium and the Templar presence.

At present, mages can only do what the Chantry and Templars allow. It's all very well to say that they should "research the Fade more". But according to Chantry teachings, going into the Fade is what screwed Thedas over and created Darkspawn in the first place. It is extremely unlikely that they would allow much in-depth research in that area. The Chantry's power is based on the fact that most of Thedas believes in its teachings without question. Studying the Fade risks uncovering new knowledge that would contradict Chantry teachings and expose them as lies.

Of course Anders is not a blood mage, but only because he was teached and told that blood magic is evil. In Tevinter there's not such idea, at least between the mages.

A revolution without planning, without organization, without at least a visible or definible goal means a great threat against to itself. Mages are sure powerful, but they need allies. They cannot face the entire chantry, the templars and the kings.

What the Chantry says is that the mages once wanted the power of the city of the Maker for themselves. If proven and respectable members of the circle like First Enchanter Irving, the Mage Hero of Ferelden (in my case), Wynne explains their intentions, report their progress regularly, I think they will be allowed to study the Fade. People with great understanding of the situation will avoid conflicts with the Chantry, in terms of "exposing lies", not because they don't want to show the truth, because their higher goal is the freedom of the mages. 

[DeathStride]

Plaintiff wrote...

Blood Magic is a way out because templars aren't as effective against it and it doesn't require lyrium to use, which is controlled by the Chantry. Blood Magic is not inherently evil, the Chantry preaches it as such because it can't control it.

Andraste, whose teachings the Chantry is based on, was likely a mage herself (the Chantry claims her powers were from the Maker, but there's no proof yet that he even exists, magic is a much more plausible theory). Her teachings have been warped in the centuries that have passed since she lived and I doubt very much that she would approve of people endorsing what is basically a new form of slavery in her name. Magic is meant to serve man but all that means is that it should be used for the betterment of mankind in general, nowhere in her teachings does Andraste say "thou shalt lock mages in towers and treat them like ****". Mages are part of man, they're not a separate species and they deserve the same rights as such.

I can very easily say that the Chantry is not "part of the solution". I think it's pretty obvious that the Chantry is most of the problem. The Chantry controls the Circle and the Templars and its blatant bias against mages and magic does more to cause demonic possession and abominations than it does to prevent it. Because of the Chantry, mages are not properly trained in how to resist demons, indeed in order to graduate they just get chucked into the Fade and are basically told to wing it. Refusing to educate them just ensures more will fail. Because of the Chantry, mage children are yanked from their families at young ages and placed in a tense, hostile environment, breeding the exact sort of emotional distress that demons prey on. Because of the Chantry, mages are alienated from the rest of humanity and are subjected to abuses that go unpunished, causing them to fester with resentment and hate, provoking them to turn to demons for the power they need to exact revenge.

You say we can't just get rid of the Chantry because it's a major part of life in Thedas. That's exactly why it should be got rid of. The Chantry has too much power and it abuses it blatantly. It's a power-hungry, bloodthirsty institution, riddled with hypocrisy.

I agree with 100% of what you've said here. What I don't agree with is your endorsement of Anders actions. The Chantry as an organization is definitely a problem. However, brutally murdering every Chantry Brother & Sister in all of Thedas is NOT the solution. Anybody who supports that has NO moral ground to stand upon and claiming that it needs to be done for the greater good is a blatant lie. People have mentioned genocide in this thread before:

genocide(n.): the deliberate and systematic extermination of a national, racial, political, or cultural group

Those who advocate destroying the Chantry by Anders' methods are quite clearly advocating a genocide.


P.S. For clarification, in my post where I mentioned Anders wanting to remove "compromise" I was simply quoting his own words, not saying that the previous status quo was acceptable.

Modifié par DeathStride, 22 avril 2011 - 08:28 .

[Sumerisle]

Plaintiff wrote...
I can very easily say that the Chantry is not "part of the solution". I think it's pretty obvious that the Chantry is most of the problem. The Chantry controls the Circle and the Templars and its blatant bias against mages and magic does more to cause demonic possession and abominations than it does to prevent it. Because of the Chantry, mages are not properly trained in how to resist demons, indeed in order to graduate they just get chucked into the Fade and are basically told to wing it. Refusing to educate them just ensures more will fail. Because of the Chantry, mage children are yanked from their families at young ages and placed in a tense, hostile environment, breeding the exact sort of emotional distress that demons prey on. Because of the Chantry, mages are alienated from the rest of humanity and are subjected to abuses that go unpunished, causing them to fester with resentment and hate, provoking them to turn to demons for the power they need to exact revenge.

You say we can't just get rid of the Chantry because it's a major part of life in Thedas. That's exactly why it should be got rid of. The Chantry has too much power and it abuses it blatantly. It's a power-hungry, bloodthirsty institution, riddled with hypocrisy.

Is not the point of the thread, but...
I think the Chantry is a noble institution, and dealing with the mages is not their primary function. They are meant to spread the Chant of Life, and help people. I think that managing the magic/abomination threat to the society is sometimes beyond their capability, but as there's no other institution, or mayor party advocated to this very difficult task, they do what they can to prevent the aboninations without eradicating the mages. That's why the Circle and the templars are needed. 
Thus a young mage boy sent to the tower is prefered to an entire slaughted family by an abomination, and the same can be said about the Circle Tower being watched by the Templars to avoid a revolt like the one leaded by Uldred.
Is the best solution? I don't think so.
Mages can make themselves worthy of a independient organization, to watch over their kind. How? Showing that they are stable, responsible, and advocated to erradicate the abominations, the blood magic, and the power hunger showed by the Tevinter Magisters. 
And finally I cannot blame an entire institution just because some of the member are wronged, corrupted, insane, possessed. There are more good men and women than evil ones, and removing those few must be the right thing to do.

Modifié par Sumerisle, 22 avril 2011 - 09:15 .

[Deputy Secretary of Awesome]

Sidney wrote...

I killed him despite being on the mages side and his friend and an apostate myself. You can't just go blowing up stuff like that and making the mages an even bigger target-- oh and you sure as heck can't lie to me when doing it. It isn't about hypocrisy it is about pragmatism. While the knee jerk reaction is for freedom the DA* series has shown us over and over that the mage threat is very real and while Meredith was BSC by the end of the game her basic fears that the idol built off of are not. There's a compromise in there somewhere and the "Tranquil Solution" isn't it and neither is Anders chaos theory.

I like your thinking! Anders kicking off the mage rebellion is going to have no shortage of horrific and unintended consequences for all of Thedas. That's actually something I really enjoyed about the story, each side has legitimate fears and atrocious overreactions. The templars pushed so hard they instigated the mages into revolt. Unchecked mage power is a pretty frightening thing (see Tevinter), and there's no telling just where this mage rebellion might go. Anders' solution is horrific and fatally flawed, but thats what intrigues me so much - just to see where it will go.

What really interested me was that there could well have been the possibility of compromise - and that the Grand Cleric would have been key to it. Both Orsino and Meredith were noble people driven to extremes. Balanced intervention by the Chantry could well have kept things stable. I think Anders recognised that, and basically rejected it. He didn't want balance or peace or stability. He wanted freedom. And he was willing to murder for it. That's dark and sick, and oh so seductive. Makes for great drama!

I had my Hawke help the mages because to me her character really resented oppression above all else, plus she had a bit of a perverse liking for chaos and tumult, instead of safety and order. She wasn't thinking about the social order of all Thedas, nor even cared for that matter. She was in some ways, narrowly focussed on Kirkwall and the situation there. The templars were about to execute every mage in the city. Including her friend Anders. Including her sister Bethany. All that mattered to Hawke was saving those loved ones, and those innocents that were being threatened then and there - larger consequences be damned.

My own feeling is that the Mage Rebellion is going to be hugely dangerous and unpredictable. Maybe a better way forward will be found eventually - more likely it's going to degenerate into anarchy and violence. Some Circles may reform themselves and reach new accords with the Chantry and Templars, others will become power-hungry and vicious. Big questions present themselves: What will happen to Orlais, the centre of the "Chantry" world? What will the Divine do? Will Tevinter intervene and ally themselves with renegade mage Circles, perhaps in the hope of remaking the Greater Imperium?

That's what interests me so much about the ending. It's exciting. It's dangerous. It's unpredictable. Hawke may have unwittingly set off events she can barely comprehend and have no idea where they will lead. But she made a stand, and that might give her legitimacy enough to lead in any future titles. Should be interesting!