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[Foolsfolly]

Plaintiff wrote...

He lives. Every time. I find his crime pretty easily forgivable. I don't really care how many innocents are in the Chantry. I'm not having sex with any of them.

I hope you're not rivalmancing him. Because it looks like Justice is days away from attacking Hawke if you rivalmance him. Almost did during that one conversation anyway before Anders came back.

[Crossroads_Wanderer]

Isabela, really? She's pretty much responsible for the Qunari invasion and partially responsible for the deaths that ensued. Her hands are not clean.

[TheBlackBaron]

Crossroads_Wanderer wrote...

Isabela, really? She's pretty much responsible for the Qunari invasion and partially responsible for the deaths that ensued. Her hands are not clean.

Of course she is, but she's never directly responsible for any mass killings - Arishok, in the end, is the one that makes the decision to break the Llomerryn Accord and go all "burn the heretic, kill the mutant, purge the unclean" on the city. Anders on the other hand is directly responsible for blowing up the Chantry, and Hawke's hands aren't free of it either. It's a bad situation all around. 

Isabela's more of a one-night stand anyway. 

[Crossroads_Wanderer]

I agree that Anders is directly responsible for the deaths that ensue of his actions, where Isabela is only indirectly responsible, but I think the difference is in the innocence of those killed. I think those who die as a result of Isabela's actions are mostly innocents, while those who die of Anders's actions are mostly not. I'm not ruling out the possibility of their being a handful of orphans in the Chantry when it exploded, and those deaths would be on his hands, but it seems to me that he took every precaution to minimize the deaths from his actions, while still making the statement he needs to make. Anders didn't just explode the Chantry; he waited 'til nightfall, when it wouldn't be very busy and he sucked the debris into some sort of wormhole so it wouldn't fly about and kill innocent bystanders. It seemed to me that he carefully planned things to stick it to the Chantry without hurting many, if any, others.

[Plaintiff]

TheBlackBaron wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

He lives. Every time. I find his crime pretty easily forgivable. I don't really care how many innocents are in the Chantry. I'm not having sex with any of them.

This is why it's better to have sex with Isabela and Merrill. Nobody dies except of their own accord. 

But... I don't care who dies.

[Rexiselic]

Justice is not about retribution, vengeance or punishment.

It is about protecting the lifes of the innocent. Those who have not forfeited their rights by committing capital crimes as the have the accused.

His final statement that it was what he wanted made no difference, I killed Anders to protect others from his madness.

It was not personal.

[The Angry One]

Rexiselic wrote...

Justice is not about retribution, vengeance or punishment.

There is no Justice. Only Vengeance.

[Rexiselic]

The Angry One wrote...

Rexiselic wrote...

Justice is not about retribution, vengeance or punishment.

There is no Justice. Only Vengeance.

I speak of virtures, not spirits.

[The Angry One]

Rexiselic wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Rexiselic wrote...

Justice is not about retribution, vengeance or punishment.

There is no Justice. Only Vengeance.

I speak of virtures, not spirits.

Joke, missed it.

[Rexiselic]

The Angry One wrote...

Rexiselic wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Rexiselic wrote...

Justice is not about retribution, vengeance or punishment.

There is no Justice. Only Vengeance.

I speak of virtures, not spirits.

Joke, missed it.

I wasn't sure if you were, I choose to err on the side of caution.

[Sabariel]

I told Elthina more than once to get her arse out of the Chantry. She chose to stay. She also chose not to empty the Chantry. My sympathy? Limited. Will I execute Anders every playthrough? Nope.

Modifié par Sabariel, 18 avril 2011 - 10:55 .

[The Angry One]

Sabariel wrote...

I told Elthina more than once to get her arse out of the Chantry. She chose to stay. She also chose not to empty the Chantry. My sympathy? Limited. Will I execute Anders every playthrough? Nope.

And how was Elthina going to predict that a crazy abomination would blow up the entire Chantry?
At worst she figured somebody would assassinate her, and in that case the Chantry would be the safest place to stay.

[Foolsfolly]

Plus, she can't very well abandon Kirkwall. Meredith would run unchecked (and the Grand Cleric DID keep her in check) and it would show a huge weakness. It may have even spurred on those zealous mages from the DLC.

She's not in a position to just run and hide. She's a leader. Leaders have to maintain their image and do their job. Her only problem is that she trusted that the Maker would allow Meredith and Orsino to see the light and not use her power to enforce her will, ala Meredith.

The Grand Cleric isn't a villain.

[Sabariel]

The Angry One wrote...

Sabariel wrote...

I told Elthina more than once to get her arse out of the Chantry. She chose to stay. She also chose not to empty the Chantry. My sympathy? Limited. Will I execute Anders every playthrough? Nope.

And how was Elthina going to predict that a crazy abomination would blow up the entire Chantry?
At worst she figured somebody would assassinate her, and in that case the Chantry would be the safest place to stay.

Since I told her to leave the Chantry... twice, you would think she'd take the hint that perhaps the Chantry was not safe anymore. Unsurprisingly, she chooses inaction.

Foolsfolly wrote...

Plus, she can't very well abandon
Kirkwall. Meredith would run unchecked (and the Grand Cleric DID keep
her in check) and it would show a huge weakness. It may have even
spurred on those zealous mages from the DLC.

She's not in a
position to just run and hide. She's a leader. Leaders have to maintain
their image and do their job. Her only problem is that she trusted that
the Maker would allow Meredith and Orsino to see the light and not use
her power to enforce her will, ala Meredith.

The Grand Cleric isn't a villain.

She would not be required to abandon Kirkwall. She would be required to empty out the Chantry, get her own butt out of the Chantry, and  then go somewhere safe. I'm sure there's more than one safe place in Kirkwall for her.

And no, she's not a villain, but she certainly pissed me off anyway

Modifié par Sabariel, 18 avril 2011 - 11:07 .

[The Angry One]

Sabariel wrote...

Since I told her to leave the Chantry... twice, you would think she'd take the hint that perhaps the Chantry was not safe anymore. Unsurprisingly, she chooses inaction.

She decided that her duties were more important than a possibility that she may come to harm.
Hindsight and meta-gaming are powerful tools, but Elthina has neither.

[The Morrigan]

Foolsfolly wrote...
The Grand Cleric isn't a villain.

No, but she's a terrible mother.

Crossroads_Wanderer wrote...

I agree that Anders is directly responsible for the deaths that ensue of his actions, where Isabela is only indirectly responsible, but I think the difference is in the innocence of those killed. I think those who die as a result of Isabela's actions are mostly innocents, while those who die of Anders's actions are mostly not. I'm not ruling out the possibility of their being a handful of orphans in the Chantry when it exploded, and those deaths would be on his hands, but it seems to me that he took every precaution to minimize the deaths from his actions, while still making the statement he needs to make. Anders didn't just explode the Chantry; he waited 'til nightfall, when it wouldn't be very busy and he sucked the debris into some sort of wormhole so it wouldn't fly about and kill innocent bystanders. It seemed to me that he carefully planned things to stick it to the Chantry without hurting many, if any, others.

And what about the fact that he started a war? And intended to start a war that would rage across Thedas?

Whether you agree this revolution was necessary or not, Anders deliberately started a war in which many people, innocent or not, will die.

[earl of the north]

Dead, every single playthough (pro-mage or pro-templar)......he's a rabid dog by the end, better to kill him before he does something even more stupid for his cause.

Modifié par earl of the north, 18 avril 2011 - 11:11 .

[Sabariel]

The Angry One wrote...

Sabariel wrote...

Since I told her to leave the Chantry... twice, you would think she'd take the hint that perhaps the Chantry was not safe anymore. Unsurprisingly, she chooses inaction.

She decided that her duties were more important than a possibility that she may come to harm.
Hindsight and meta-gaming are powerful tools, but Elthina has neither.

Even if she was at peace with harm coming to her she should have at least emptied out the Chantry. Hawke tells her "Chantry: not good place to stay". No hindsight  is needed there.

[Foolsfolly]

No, but she's a terrible mother.

Because she assumed two people could act rationally without her enforcing her will over them? She's a little naive, and she definitely should have at least considered removing Meredith of power...but that doesn't make her terrible.

I'm not even sure if she could just strip Meredith of power. Meredith may have become too power to demote since Kirkwall has so many templars loyal to her. Is it better to keep Meredith in check or to anger her and her zealots into action?

It's a tough position. Do I agree with how she handled it? No. But I don't blame her for Meredith's actions.

[The Angry One]

Sabariel wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Sabariel wrote...

Since I told her to leave the Chantry... twice, you would think she'd take the hint that perhaps the Chantry was not safe anymore. Unsurprisingly, she chooses inaction.

She decided that her duties were more important than a possibility that she may come to harm.
Hindsight and meta-gaming are powerful tools, but Elthina has neither.

Even if she was at peace with harm coming to her she should have at least emptied out the Chantry. Hawke tells her "Chantry: not good place to stay". No hindsight  is needed there.

No, Hawke tells her Kirkwall is not a good place to stay.
By that logic, let's evacuate Kirkwall.

[silver-crescent]

Poll needs more options. It's not like being made tranquil is the only way he can pay for his crimes.

Also, it's not like you have to think what he didn't wasn't a crime to allow him to live/not be made tranquil.

[Rifneno]

His fate in my games, should I be able to carry it through in DA3, is to have a Gimli-Legolas type kill contest and see who can kill the most templars on our way to Val Royeaux.  Then the real fun will begin. 

[The Angry One]

Rifneno wrote...

His fate in my games, should I be able to carry it through in DA3, is to have a Gimli-Legolas type kill contest and see who can kill the most templars on our way to Val Royeaux.  Then the real fun will begin. 

12 before Justice arbitrarily declares you a murderer and shoots you in the back.

[Sabariel]

The Angry One wrote...

Sabariel wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Sabariel wrote...

Since I told her to leave the Chantry... twice, you would think she'd take the hint that perhaps the Chantry was not safe anymore. Unsurprisingly, she chooses inaction.

She decided that her duties were more important than a possibility that she may come to harm.
Hindsight and meta-gaming are powerful tools, but Elthina has neither.

Even if she was at peace with harm coming to her she should have at least emptied out the Chantry. Hawke tells her "Chantry: not good place to stay". No hindsight  is needed there.

No, Hawke tells her Kirkwall is not a good place to stay.
By that logic, let's evacuate Kirkwall.

Hawke tried "Kirkwall not safe" then tried "Chantry not safe" then tried "Chantry not safe" once more. How many times and how many different warnings does one need? Even Seb told her to gtfo and she chooses to do... nothing.

silver-crescent wrote...

Poll needs more options. It's not like being made tranquil is the only way he can pay for his crimes.

Also, it's not like you have to think what he didn't wasn't a crime to allow him to live/not be made tranquil.

That's what the "other" option is for, I assume.

Modifié par Sabariel, 18 avril 2011 - 11:18 .

[Rifneno]

The Angry One wrote...

Sabariel wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Sabariel wrote...

Since I told her to leave the Chantry... twice, you would think she'd take the hint that perhaps the Chantry was not safe anymore. Unsurprisingly, she chooses inaction.

She decided that her duties were more important than a possibility that she may come to harm.
Hindsight and meta-gaming are powerful tools, but Elthina has neither.

Even if she was at peace with harm coming to her she should have at least emptied out the Chantry. Hawke tells her "Chantry: not good place to stay". No hindsight  is needed there.

No, Hawke tells her Kirkwall is not a good place to stay.
By that logic, let's evacuate Kirkwall.

I do hope the irony of the fact that evacuating Kirkwall until Thedas has the technology to nuke it from orbit actually is the best idea, isn't lost on you?