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[The Angry One]

Sabariel wrote...

Hawke tried "Kirkwall not safe" then tried "Chantry not safe" then tried "Chantry not safe" once more. How many times and how many different warnings does one need?

So the Grand Cleric can either hide in Kirkwall, which by Hawke's own admission "is not safe" and make people wonder just what she's doing, or run to Val Royeaux, make her followers think she abandoned them and prompt the Divine to attack the city.
Either of these options are better than remaining where she is why?

[Sabariel]

The Angry One wrote...

Sabariel wrote...

Hawke tried "Kirkwall not safe" then tried "Chantry not safe" then tried "Chantry not safe" once more. How many times and how many different warnings does one need?

So the Grand Cleric can either hide in Kirkwall, which by Hawke's own admission "is not safe" and make people wonder just what she's doing, or run to Val Royeaux, make her followers think she abandoned them and prompt the Divine to attack the city.
Either of these options are better than remaining where she is why?

"Kirkwall is not safe" was a vague warning. When she ignored it, Hawke tried a more specific warning: "Chantry not safe". She ignored that as well. He tried the specific warning again: "Chantry not safe". Again, he was ignored. Don't know how to make it more clear than that.

[silver-crescent]

Another thing is that Anders can't even be made tranquil anyway. Can't be cut down from the Fade if you're sharing your body with a spirit.

[The Angry One]

Sabariel wrote...

"Kirkwall is not safe" was a vague warning. When she ignored it, Hawke tried a more specific warning: "Chantry not safe". She ignored that as well. He tried the specific warning again: "Chantry not safe". Again, he was ignored. Don't know how to make it more clear than that.

Alright.
Why is the Chantry not safe?

[Foolsfolly]

She really has no choice. She has to stay for political reasons. Running would have caused problems.

Besides, it sounds like she's stupid for doing her job. It's like blaming her for Anders blowing her up instead of Meredith, the true oppressor and loon in charge of the mage problems.

[Sabariel]

The Angry One wrote...

Sabariel wrote...

"Kirkwall is not safe" was a vague warning. When she ignored it, Hawke tried a more specific warning: "Chantry not safe". She ignored that as well. He tried the specific warning again: "Chantry not safe". Again, he was ignored. Don't know how to make it more clear than that.

Alright.
Why is the Chantry not safe?

Because Hawke knows things Elthina does not

Foolsfolly wrote...

She really has no choice. She has to stay for political reasons. Running would have caused problems.

Besides,
it sounds like she's stupid for doing her job. It's like blaming her
for Anders blowing her up instead of Meredith, the true oppressor and
loon in charge of the mage problems.

Again, she is not required to run from Kirkwall completely. She can still do Grand Clericy things from a safehouse (maybe... a place in Darktown... Anders' Clinic maybe? *shot*)

Blowing up Meredith would have accomplished nothing but Meredith's death. The Chantry created the crappy templar/mage "relationship". The Chantry needed someone to set its arse on fire... not literally... but Anders did it anyway...

Modifié par Sabariel, 18 avril 2011 - 11:32 .

[Rifneno]

Sabariel wrote...

Blowing up Meredith would have accomplished nothing but Meredith's death. The Chantry created the crappy templar/mage "relationship".

Stop talking sense!  Everyone knows the best way to kill a snake is to repeatedly stomp its tail while leaving the innocent head alone until it gives you a fatal bite.

[The Angry One]

Sabariel wrote...
Because Hawke knows things Elthina does not

And everybody else knows things Hawke doesn't so that really isn't saying much.
You can't invoke "the hero is always right" when the hero is played for a dupe for 90% of the game.

Again, she is not required to run from Kirkwall completely. She can still do Grand Clericy things from a safehouse (maybe... a place in Darktown... Anders' Clinic maybe? *shot*)

Now Chantry followers are wondering why she has to do this, causing unrest and maybe panic.
Hell, forget that. Now the Divine gets word that the Grand Cleric is having to hide for fear of imminent attack. The Chantry is in danger, Kirkwall is lost. Time for an Exalted March!

Blowing up Meredith would have accomplished nothing but Meredith's death. The Chantry created the crappy templar/mage "relationship". The Chantry needed someone to set its arse on fire... not literally... but Anders did it anyway...

You're right, why deal with the matter directly when you can do it in the way that will guarantee the most death and destruction possible!
Justice, everybody!

[Rifneno]

The Angry One wrote...

Now Chantry followers are wondering why she has to do this, causing unrest and maybe panic.
Hell, forget that. Now the Divine gets word that the Grand Cleric is having to hide for fear of imminent attack. The Chantry is in danger, Kirkwall is lost. Time for an Exalted March!

Err, correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the reason she's asked to flee Kirkwall because Leliana said so on direct orders from the Divine herself?

[The Angry One]

Rifneno wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Now Chantry followers are wondering why she has to do this, causing unrest and maybe panic.
Hell, forget that. Now the Divine gets word that the Grand Cleric is having to hide for fear of imminent attack. The Chantry is in danger, Kirkwall is lost. Time for an Exalted March!

Err, correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the reason she's asked to flee Kirkwall because Leliana said so on direct orders from the Divine herself?

Less an order, more of a reccomendation.
But yes, the Divine wants Elthina to go to Val Royeaux because she's already considering attacking Kirkwall.
If Elthina goes, she'll just confirm the need.

[Sabariel]

The Angry One wrote...

And everybody else knows things Hawke doesn't so that really isn't saying much.
You can't invoke "the hero is always right" when the hero is played for a dupe for 90% of the game.

I don't know about you, but I knew Anders was planning something not-so-nice for the Chantry long before he went boom. By extension, my Hawke knows this because he saw everything I saw. He/I did not help Anders in his Act III quests because of this. I repeatedly tried to warn Elthina because of this. She repeatedly ignored me because... that's what she does.

Now Chantry followers are wondering why she has to do this, causing unrest and maybe panic.
Hell, forget that. Now the Divine gets word that the Grand Cleric is having to hide for fear of imminent attack. The Chantry is in danger, Kirkwall is lost. Time for an Exalted March!

You don't have to tell the public the Grand Cleric is in hiding. Pretend the Chantry is closed to the public for renevations. They'll assume she's in there supervising, making sure that no one fondles Andraste

You're right, why deal with the matter directly when you can do it in the way that will guarantee the most death and destruction possible!
Justice, everybody!

Meredith was not the matter though. She was just another product of the crappy mage-and-templar "relationship".

[Rifneno]

The Angry One wrote...

Less an order, more of a reccomendation.
But yes, the Divine wants Elthina to go to Val Royeaux because she's already considering attacking Kirkwall.
If Elthina goes, she'll just confirm the need.

Given that Meredith was asking the Divine for the RoA, I imagine the considered crusade exalted march is because Meredith told her a bunch of bull to get her way.  So really, once they find out that things aren't what Meredith told them it'd be called off anyway.  Well, until Anders goes jihad anyway.

[Foolsfolly]

Again, she is not required to run from Kirkwall completely. She can still do Grand Clericy things from a safehouse (maybe... a place in Darktown... Anders' Clinic maybe? *shot*)

But she was the target of Anders's bomb. Wherever she was he'd have placed the bomb. He wanted to remove the chance of compromise and the Grand Cleric would want compromise.

[Sabariel]

Foolsfolly wrote...

Again, she is not required to run from Kirkwall completely. She can still do Grand Clericy things from a safehouse (maybe... a place in Darktown... Anders' Clinic maybe? *shot*)

But she was the target of Anders's bomb. Wherever she was he'd have placed the bomb. He wanted to remove the chance of compromise and the Grand Cleric would want compromise.

If Anders didn't know where she'd gone, she couldn't be a target, could she? The man is not psychic. Or... is he?

silver-crescent wrote...

Another thing is that Anders
can't even be made tranquil anyway. Can't be cut down from the Fade if
you're sharing your body with a spirit.

Use magical Fade-mind-entering spell. Kill Justice, Kill Fade Anders, Anders is now Tranquil. Everyone but Anders is happy.

Modifié par Sabariel, 18 avril 2011 - 11:56 .

[The Morrigan]

Foolsfolly wrote...

No, but she's a terrible mother.

Because she assumed two people could act rationally without her enforcing her will over them? She's a little naive, and she definitely should have at least considered removing Meredith of power...but that doesn't make her terrible.

I'm not even sure if she could just strip Meredith of power. Meredith may have become too power to demote since Kirkwall has so many templars loyal to her. Is it better to keep Meredith in check or to anger her and her zealots into action?

It's a tough position. Do I agree with how she handled it? No. But I don't blame her for Meredith's actions.

I don't blame her for Meredith and Orsino's actions, either, but sometimes inaction is just as bad as action. She made a terrible assumption, which she stuck with, even when the templars and mages were on the verge of killing each other. It's clear from the first time you meet them that Orsino and Meredith are at each other's throats, but Elthina decides that they'll figure it out, by themselves.

She takes this stance for at least 10 years. I hate to say it, Grand Cleric, but if they haven't figured out their differences by now, they're probably not going to. Perhaps you should step in before things reach crisis point?

Oh, too late, you're in pieces.

[Ansatsusha]

Let him live and witness the mess he started. If he's too much to control, make him tranquil. No matter how much I despised the Chantry and wanted mages to be treated better, terrorism is never justifiable. Attacking the symbol of people's (misguided) faith in such a violent way is not going to help mages at all--I don't care how noble his reasons are. Terrorism is terrorism. But letting him die? That would be too easy. He wants to die a martyr and die thinking that he helped mages, he wants to die thinking that he paid for what he did with his life. Not going to let him have that satisfaction, not going to give him the punishment he deserves and wants. He goes unpunished because that is the best punishment for him. But if he goes crazier than he already is, I would like him tranquilled...does tranquilling him kill the stupid vengeance demon in him?

Modifié par Ansatsusha, 18 avril 2011 - 11:52 .

[In Exile]

He's a mass murderer and a terrorist. It doesn't matter what his cause is or how just it is.

[OldMan91]

You're right, why deal with the matter directly when you can do it in the way that will guarantee the most death and destruction possible!

The point wasn't to tell the Chantry "Take that!" a la Phoenix Wright style, index finger pointing accusingly at the Grand Cleric (or her corpse rather). It was to force a confrontation and a war with the Templars.

That being said, I let Anders live. I understand his reasons and I think it's always better to have an extra body (or potentially a meat shield) in the fight against the Templars. If you kill him, it's a waste of a mage who is experienced in healing. Oh yeah, and I always choose to side with the mages.

Modifié par OldMan91, 18 avril 2011 - 12:02 .

[Rifneno]

OldMan91 wrote...

You're right, why deal with the matter directly when you can do it in the way that will guarantee the most death and destruction possible!

The point wasn't to tell the Chantry "Take that!" a la Phoenix Wright style, index finger pointing accusingly at the Grand Cleric (or her corpse rather). It was to force a confrontation and a war with the Templars.

"He's a terrorist omg he eats babies!  Why would he blow up the Chantry, it's just going to get all the mages he wants to save killed in a war!  He should've blown up the Gallows instead, that would be much more logical!  The mages are nowhere near the Gallows!"

My brain hurts.  

[Sabariel]

Rifneno wrote...

OldMan91 wrote...

You're right, why deal with the matter directly when you can do it in the way that will guarantee the most death and destruction possible!

The point wasn't to tell the Chantry "Take that!" a la Phoenix Wright style, index finger pointing accusingly at the Grand Cleric (or her corpse rather). It was to force a confrontation and a war with the Templars.

"He's a terrorist omg he eats babies!  Why would he blow up the Chantry, it's just going to get all the mages he wants to save killed in a war!  He should've blown up the Gallows instead, that would be much more logical!  The mages are nowhere near the Gallows!"

My brain hurts.  

Just like only killing Meredith, blowing up the Gallows would have accomplished nothing.

Also, I think once the mages are more organized they're going to steamroller their way through this upcoming war. That's just what I think though

[silver-crescent]

I think so too. Especially given how apparently by the end of DA2 the Chantry/Templars are all divided.

[OldMan91]

Rifneno wrote...

OldMan91 wrote...

You're right, why deal with the matter directly when you can do it in the way that will guarantee the most death and destruction possible!

The point wasn't to tell the Chantry "Take that!" a la Phoenix Wright style, index finger pointing accusingly at the Grand Cleric (or her corpse rather). It was to force a confrontation and a war with the Templars.

"He's a terrorist omg he eats babies!  Why would he blow up the Chantry, it's just going to get all the mages he wants to save killed in a war!  He should've blown up the Gallows instead, that would be much more logical!  The mages are nowhere near the Gallows!"

My brain hurts.  

In principle there are better ways to start a revolution. Using the cliche and stereotypical method of a bomb-throwing anarchist has never worked well. If only Anders have read on the October Revolution...

Ah well, once it's done you might as well go through with it and help the mages. I'd rather err on the side of justice than on the side of faith.

[Cutlass Jack]

In Exile wrote...

He's a mass murderer and a terrorist. It doesn't matter what his cause is or how just it is.

Yes and justice would demand he die for his act. He knew this better than anyone, and even told that to Isabela.

[In Exile]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

In Exile wrote...

He's a mass murderer and a terrorist. It doesn't matter what his cause is or how just it is.

Yes and justice would demand he die for his act. He knew this better than anyone, and even told that to Isabela.

Personally, I think he deserved a trial, to face the families of the people he killed and see the monster he became. Killing him in a sense is easy, because he escapes the stigma of a murderer. Not to say that I don't think he should have died in the end... I just think executing him in that way made it easy.

[JabberJaww]

It just didn't seem right to let him walk, my conscious wouldn't allow it. If he is capable of blowing up the Chantry what would be next? Secretly killing mage children and framing the Templars? Nope, he gets the knife in my play throughs

On a side note, he also dies for not using the hammer of god ray on the darn High Dragon.