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[marshalleck]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

OldMan91 wrote...

No. You cannot simply wave off all circumstance and focus only on what puts him in a negative light. That's stupid.

Indeed. To judge an action, you must look at both the circumstances surrounding the action, the means to the action and the results thereof. In matters of jurisprudence or even public policy, circumstances and intentions do matter and must be taken into account.

If you murder a murderer, what you did is still murder. You will be judged accordingly.

This post is very befitting your username and avatar. 

[akayasha]

Maren03 wrote...

I let him live. What was done was done. Killing Anders wasn't going to make the problems go away, wasn't going to bring back Ethina or the other uninvolved parties who weren't guilty in the Chantry. If fact killing him (knowing he had connections with other Freedom Fighter mages/mage sympathizers) could've, easily just made things worse and resulted in more killings and murders of innocents. If that had happened,if  he'd died a martyr and it escalated the problem at the expense of other people, how would that make me any better than him? Knowingly perpetuating a problem just to enact vengence on someone else felt like hypocricy. No, instead of letting him die a martyr and making things worse I essentially told him I was going to make "him finish what he started" by protecting the mages. He got them into this problem, he admitted he had regrets for doing what he did, and that the people he killed should be avenged through his death. But I decided, if he learned to live with that guilt and have more compassion for people he could be a lot more effective and useful in helping lead everyone else out of this mess and towards peace than if I just knifed him and ended it at that..

Killing him also felt hypocritical on multiple levels. Was what he did an act of terrorism? Yes it was, no point in sugar-coating that. But so were what the many templars doing when they abused their powers against the mages. So were the nobles who allowed and perpetuated the poverty of many people for their own beneifit (especially Fereldans who were often given menial if not risky jobs that could kill them), so were the slavers, the many of the people of Kirkwall and members of the Chantry who conspired or murdered Ferelands and Qunari out of nationalism and self-entitlement. So were the people who condoned and supported what they were doing, and so were the Qunari when they retaliated and attacked innocent people, murdering the Viscount and nobles who didn't agree with their religion, The Qun.

My point? There were many people in Kirkwall who weren't innocent and made the place what it was, even Elthina's at fault because she knowingly let the problem escalate when both sides needed her help and guidance. It wasn't just Anders. That doesn't mean it justifies what he or any of them did, but I find it rather hypocritical to demand only his blood, or for templars such as Meredith to do so when so many individuals, terrorized, murdered, and had crimes to atone for just as he did. Kirkwall was on the brink of madness. What would seeking retribution from every one of those individuals including him in the form of death achieve other than more problems and bloodbaths? I may have sided with the mages, killed the templars and abominations, but it wasn't out of vengance so much as it was in self-defense and offering protection to innocent people.

So I guess that means I voted "other"..?

Yeah. I feel like everyone deserves a second chance (Logain), so I didn't kill him.  Though his actions are very radical and I don't personally agree with them, I felt like the templars would have done things similar. It was wrong to kill the Bishop, she did not really have anything to do with this. Anders should have just did it to the templars instead of killing an innocent who was somewhat neutral.

[Rifneno]

Benchmark wrote...

1. I dont understand this at all.
2. Shep isn't supposed to clear everything demonic from the citadel top to bottom. The warden is. I agree that it could be merely a representation of something larger. But everything in the game is that so we would never be able to establish scale anyway.
3,4. Combine these two points. You blow up old women and orphans, I lock up 12 year olds with built in maglites.

1.  That makes two of us, because I'm at a complete loss for how you take "we don't know how rare mages are" to mean mages are the majority.
2.  And people would've reacted kindly to it if the Circle Tower quest took 20 hours of constant fighting?  You can clearly see from the outside that it's *much* larger than what we see.
3.  If you want to see everything in black and white, I can't say I really recommend Bioware games for you.

[Benchmark]

Rifneno wrote...

1.  That makes two of us, because I'm at a complete loss for how you take "we don't know how rare mages are" to mean mages are the majority.
2.  And people would've reacted kindly to it if the Circle Tower quest took 20 hours of constant fighting?  You can clearly see from the outside that it's *much* larger than what we see.
3.  If you want to see everything in black and white, I can't say I really recommend Bioware games for you.

1. Again... where did I say Mages are the majority? I think I actually was making a case that they are not the majority, they are a tiny minority. This makes them disimilar to US and French revolutionaries who were the majorities in those cases.

2. I allow that everything is probably bigger than we see, I still think towers only house a very small population when compared to the entire country they are gathered from.

3. I think my position is extremely grey, it just isn't as flexible as perfect solutions should be. I would lock up .01% of the population to protect the rest, and I open myself to being called a Tyrant. I would not kill a building full of innocents to remove the one force that kept two warring factions from open conflict because I personally want to change the situation of that .01%. So I dodge being called a mass murderer.

Modifié par Benchmark, 19 avril 2011 - 12:12 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

In for a dime in for a nickle. If you are already called a Tyrant, you might aswell go mass murderer too. Otherwise you will be the laughing stock in the club of tyrants.

[Benchmark]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

In for a dime in for a nickle. If you are already called a Tyrant, you might aswell go mass murderer too. Otherwise you will be the laughing stock in the club of tyrants.

I think it is "In for a dime, in for a dollar". But you have a point, I would make a terrible Tyrant. I need to go back and retake Warcrimes 1311. I failed the "Whats good for me is good for the majority!"- A Chapter on the benefits of Narcissism.

[Dietchypeach]

I let Ander live because i couldn't stop laughing when i saw what he did. afterwards i wish i would have fought on the templars side because of what the one elf dude turned into, i felt backstabbed.

[Greta13]

I'm just going to say my completely random idea that I'd want to do to Justice, oops! I mean Anders.
If I could do ANYTHING I'd just pack him off to Tevinter.
Why?
He's always going on about how he hates blood mages, maybe going there would help him see where the Templars are coming from. If not, he'd probably freak out, kill some magisters then they'd kill him. Either which way it seems like a good idea to me.

[DeathStride]

Greta13 wrote...

I'm just going to say my completely random idea that I'd want to do to Justice, oops! I mean Anders.
If I could do ANYTHING I'd just pack him off to Tevinter.
Why?
He's always going on about how he hates blood mages, maybe going there would help him see where the Templars are coming from. If not, he'd probably freak out, kill some magisters then they'd kill him. Either which way it seems like a good idea to me.

Haha that's not a half bad idea... exile him to Tevinter with on pain of death Tranquility... I still prefer just tranq'ing the bastard, but the Tevinter one would definitely be my 2nd choice.

Modifié par DeathStride, 19 avril 2011 - 01:10 .

[Rifneno]

Benchmark wrote...

1. Again... where did I say Mages are the majority? I think I actually was making a case that they are not the majority, they are a tiny minority. This makes them disimilar to US and French revolutionaries who were the majorities in those cases.

2. I allow that everything is probably bigger than we see, I still think towers only house a very small population when compared to the entire country they are gathered from.

3. I think my position is extremely grey, it just isn't as flexible as perfect solutions should be. I would lock up .01% of the population to protect the rest, and I open myself to being called a Tyrant. I would not kill a building full of innocents to remove the one force that kept two warring factions from open conflict because I personally want to change the situation of that .01%. So I dodge being called a mass murderer.

1.  Ahh, I think this part was a misunderstanding.  You said "a larger portion of the population" and I took that to mean an overall larger portion than non-mages rather than a larger portion than what you meant.  Either way, none of us has anything concrete except that mages are a minority.  We can only speculate.  My stance is that I won't write off the crimes committed against mages based on there not being many of them when we don't know how many "not many" is.
2.  Also consider the total population of the world.  They estimate the world had a total population of 400,000,000 people at 1000 AD.  Compare that to 6,450,000,000 at 2005.  Toss in that the known world of Thedas is one continent rather than a complete world, and you have to see Thedas as a small fraction of the population we're accustomed to.

Greta13 wrote...

I'm just going to say my completely random idea that I'd want to do to Justice, oops! I mean Anders.
If I could do ANYTHING I'd just pack him off to Tevinter.
Why?
He's always going on about how he hates blood mages, maybe going there would help him see where the Templars are coming from. If not, he'd probably freak out, kill some magisters then they'd kill him. Either which way it seems like a good idea to me.

If we were talking about the Circle as presented as the Ferelden Circle in DAO, and that might work.  But there's no excuse for Kirkwall's Circle.  Ferelden's was a gilded cage as they say.  Kirkwall's was a POW camp in a third world country.

[Fast Jimmy]

Anders killed a bunch of people in the Chantry. While not combatants, they certainly weren't all innocents. The Templars are just the strong arm of the Chantry, not the mind. Its not the Templars job to preach about the evils of magic, or how the Maker does not wish mages to be free.

If you disliked a law and felt it was unjust, would you attack a police station? No, because they are just the enforcers of the law. If you wanted to make a terroristic attack, you would do it to city hall, where the law actually came from.

The Grand Cleric had every chance to step in and tell the Templars they had crossed the line, that Meredith was going too far. Her inaction led to the attack and the loss of her life. While I don't condone Anders actions, his choice of targets is logical. And after years of mages being abused, turned tranquil at the drop of a hat and brutalized, all with the Grand Cleric's knowledge, yet no one did anything, I really don't see that Anders had much other option if he wanted to effect change immediately.

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 19 avril 2011 - 01:45 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

Filament wrote...

Can abominations even be made Tranquil? Has this ever been tried?

The demon within a host would be a constant connection to the fade, which would make a tranquilization impossible.

[Persephone]

If one wanted the worst punishment for Anders (Remember how he tells you how much he fears Tranquility?) , one would ask the Templars to prepare the Rite. I'd have LOVED to see that as a choice in game. Maybe even the Rite not working/forcing Justice out.......oh my, the drama!

[lockdown51]

Death. Every single time. Then I would use blood magic to bring him back to life just kill him again. And rinse and repeat. That is what you do with people who are possessed after all. And Anders, by his own admission is very possessed. As in another entity is inhabiting his body with him.

The Chantry and Mages and all that is just there to blind you to the true issue. Putting down possessed people is like putting down dogs with rabies. You do it for public safety.

[Lithuasil]

Persephone wrote...

If one wanted the worst punishment for Anders (Remember how he tells you how much he fears Tranquility?) , one would ask the Templars to prepare the Rite. I'd have LOVED to see that as a choice in game. Maybe even the Rite not working/forcing Justice out.......oh my, the drama!

I'm fairly certain the right doesn't work on abominations, kind of like locking the door to keep burglars out doesn't really help when they're already packing your tv 

[Sabariel]

Lithuasil wrote...

Persephone wrote...

If one wanted the worst punishment for Anders (Remember how he tells you how much he fears Tranquility?) , one would ask the Templars to prepare the Rite. I'd have LOVED to see that as a choice in game. Maybe even the Rite not working/forcing Justice out.......oh my, the drama!

I'm fairly certain the right doesn't work on abominations, kind of like locking the door to keep burglars out doesn't really help when they're already packing your tv 

If you cleaned Justice out of Anders first you could make him Tranquil. However, I don't know if Justice could be cleaned out or not...

[akayasha]

Lithuasil wrote...

Persephone wrote...

If one wanted the worst punishment for Anders (Remember how he tells you how much he fears Tranquility?) , one would ask the Templars to prepare the Rite. I'd have LOVED to see that as a choice in game. Maybe even the Rite not working/forcing Justice out.......oh my, the drama!

I'm fairly certain the right doesn't work on abominations, kind of like locking the door to keep burglars out doesn't really help when they're already packing your tv 

Yeah funny comparison haha. Also, judging by Anders' personality he would probably fight to the death or escape like he did in Awakening. If he still has some personality from Awakening left. (For ex. He isn't funny anymore) Since the spirit is connected to the fade, I don't think Anders could be cut off from the fade. If he is made tranquil, somehow, I guess Vegeance will just permanently stay in the world? Something like Sophia Dyrden wanted to do stay in the mortal realm? Not sure if that is possible though. 

[Aurelet]

I'd like to punch him repeatedly in the face, but I don't think he should be killed.

[Camenae]

I really really really wanted to be able to separate Justice/Vengeance from Anders, if only because while romancing Anders, it feels so weird to have some other being there who is oh-SO-stern and always watching us, JUDGING...

[Dante Angelo]

I wanted to kill him but by doing that I'd be letting him off the hook. By letting him live you make have him have to deal with the crime he has committed. I also wish there was a way to make him go through a Prometheus like scenario although that might be a little too cruel

[Medhia Nox]

I would find a way to tear Justice out of Anders - and imprison it in a Chantry relic.

Then, I would imprison Anders and visit him regularly telling him how I put down another group of Resolutionists. Until - when the war is over, and my mage helps re-institute a new Circle, and I let him know that the final act of undoing his works was that I personally helped rebuild the Chantry in Kirkwall as Viscount. I'd also tell him that I've spread the word that  Tevinter mage sparked off this entire event - and Ander's name will forever be forgotten.

Then, I would turn Ander's Tranquil and give him to the Chantry so they could train him to sit in front of a Chanter's board for the rest of his days handing out quests.

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 19 avril 2011 - 02:54 .

[Rifneno]

Lithuasil wrote...

I'm fairly certain the right doesn't work on abominations, kind of like locking the door to keep burglars out doesn't really help when they're already packing your tv 

Shame on you, paying attention to the story like that...

Camenae wrote...

I really really really wanted to be able to separate Justice/Vengeance from Anders, if only because while romancing Anders, it feels so weird to have some other being there who is oh-SO-stern and always watching us, JUDGING...

But it's worth it just to see him freak out if you refer to it as a threesome to him.

[Camenae]

Well the only other way I can think of to describe that whole situation is "so Justice likes to watch?" and that's not much better!