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[errant_knight]

Death. He needs to die not only because of his crime, but because he's an abomination.

[Deztyn]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Anders killed a bunch of people in the Chantry. While not combatants, they certainly weren't all innocents. The Templars are just the strong arm of the Chantry, not the mind. Its not the Templars job to preach about the evils of magic, or how the Maker does not wish mages to be free.

If you disliked a law and felt it was unjust, would you attack a police station? No, because they are just the enforcers of the law. If you wanted to make a terroristic attack, you would do it to city hall, where the law actually came from.

The Grand Cleric had every chance to step in and tell the Templars they had crossed the line, that Meredith was going too far. Her inaction led to the attack and the loss of her life. While I don't condone Anders actions, his choice of targets is logical. And after years of mages being abused, turned tranquil at the drop of a hat and brutalized, all with the Grand Cleric's knowledge, yet no one did anything, I really don't see that Anders had much other option if he wanted to effect change immediately.

1) The "Mages are made tranquil if they look at a templar wrong, the circle's are sooo evil" argument needs to die. This isn't true even in Kirkwall. Idunna is a known blood mage, involved in a plot to destroy the templars from within by turning them into abominations and she wasn't made tranquil if you turned her in, neither was Grace.

And for Fereldan, well, I'll point out that Anders says he attempted escape from the Circle seven times. He admits in dialogue that he was never abused. He was never made tranquil and the templars only went after him with lethal force because they believed he murdered other templars (and they weren't necessarily wrong.)

One lunatic in Kirkwall wanted to turn every mage tranquil and was rejected. One.

2) Hawke knows a few things and does nothing (Poor Alain) , and Hawke knows about a few things and has the option of killing the bastards responsible (Like Alrik). Where is the scene where Elthina knows about specific abuses and ignores them?

Modifié par Deztyn, 19 avril 2011 - 03:24 .

[Lithuasil]

Deztyn wrote...
Where is the scene where Elthina knows about abuses and ignores them?

Outside my very own fanfic, those moments are absent, but that's not a point in her favor - knowing what's going on in the circle  she is supposed to have authority over, is NOT a point in her favor.

[Deztyn]

Ah, I see. So if Alain for instance, is being raped by a templar and tells no one (but Hawke), Elthina is supposed to psychically divine this knowledge. If not, she's a bad leader. Totally deserves to die.

Modifié par Deztyn, 19 avril 2011 - 03:27 .

[Camenae]

I think the scene where Elthina knows of the abuses and ignores them is when you get the choice of giving her Ser Alrik's papers on the tranquil solution, and she just says ominously "I'm not going to ask you how you got this" and that's it. Basically an "o rly ya rly mmmk moving on" reaction.

[Crossroads_Wanderer]

The templar shouldn't have the ability to be alone with and to have that kind of power over a mage. There should be some accountability and, when a templar is found to be abusing his power, the Grand Cleric should be made aware of it.

[Lithuasil]

Deztyn wrote...

Ah, I see. So if Alain for instance, is being raped by a templar and tells no one (but Hawke), Elthina is supposed to psychically divine this knowledge. If not, she's a bad leader. Totally deserves to die.

If a leader that has absolute authority about a body of troops, and those  troops commit crimes under the cover of their mandate, the leader can, and will, be held responsible. If she lacks the ability to prevent these things from happening, she's the wrong person for the job. And since Alain isn't really the only one reporting such things, and since we witness Elthinas way of handling a conflict by sticking her fingers in her ears and loudly reciting the chant of light, some conclusions can be drawn.

[mhendon]

I let him live only because he was my friend. I think the people in the chantry deserved the justice killing him would bring but like a lot of people have said, thats what he wanted. My hawke let him live but didn't ever want to see him again. He needs to live in the world he created. He doesn't get absolution.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Public execution to sate the bloodlust or making him tranquil. I prefer the latter, it reduces the chance of him being considered a martyr. Plus, it's ironic justice, I am a sucker for those.

[Deztyn]

Camenae wrote...

I think the scene where Elthina knows of the abuses and ignores them is when you get the choice of giving her Ser Alrik's papers on the tranquil solution, and she just says ominously "I'm not going to ask you how you got this" and that's it. Basically an "o rly ya rly mmmk moving on" reaction.

That would be when Hawke shows her the letter taken off the body of a templar who was just found murdered. She's actually rather accommodating all things considered.

Afterwards, she says he made the suggestion and it was soundly rejected. The Rite of Tranquility was meant to be a last resort.

Lithuasil wrote...

Deztyn wrote...

Ah, I see. So if Alain for instance, is being raped by a templar and tells no one (but Hawke), Elthina is supposed to psychically divine this knowledge. If not, she's a bad leader. Totally deserves to die.

If a leader that has absolute authority about a body of troops, and those  troops commit crimes under the cover of their mandate, the leader can, and will, be held responsible. If she lacks the ability to prevent these things from happening, she's the wrong person for the job. And since Alain isn't really the only one reporting such things, and since we witness Elthinas way of handling a conflict by sticking her fingers in her ears and loudly reciting the chant of light, some conclusions can be drawn.

Alain didn't 'report such things.'

Alain told Hawke.

Hawke does nothing.

There is not one scene that shows Elthina is aware of such abuses, and as the other poster said that they were done "all with the Grand Cleric's knowledge."

Hell, I can't recall a scene that shows Meredith is aware of the abusers. Meredith, who actually is the direct supervisor of the templars.

Modifié par Deztyn, 19 avril 2011 - 03:51 .

[Lithuasil]

Deztyn wrote...
Alain didn't 'report such things.'

Alain told Hawke.

Hawke does nothing.

There is not one scene that shows Elthina is aware of such abuses, and as the other poster said that they were done "all with the Grand Cleric's knowledge."

Hell, I can't recall a scene that shows Meredith is aware of the abusers. Meredith, who actually is the direct supervisor of the templars.

And I'm sure all the random mages telling you about being physically tortured for the most insignificant of offenses only tell that to hawke, but never speak to any other outsider. And since they all have the option to request personal audiences with the grand cleric, fault lies solely with them for keeping silent. (Oh wait, because going to elthina went so well for Orsino).

If neither Meredith, nor her immediate superior (Elthina) are aware of what's happening, they're both horrendously bad at their jobs. If a nuclear power plant blows up, "the operator was a moron, he didn't notice the overheating" is not a valid excuse, it just raises the question why said operator wasn't replaced years ago.

[Medhia Nox]

Which means Hawke is the most evil character in the entire game - Hawke "does nothing" with a lot of information he's given.

Funny how quick we are to hold NPCs up to some moral logic - but Hawke escapes it.

[Lithuasil]

Medhia Nox wrote...

Which means Hawke is the most evil character in the entire game - Hawke "does nothing" with a lot of information he's given.

Funny how quick we are to hold NPCs up to some moral logic - but Hawke escapes it.

You assume she does, without any grounds to base that assumption on.

[Rifneno]

Camenae wrote...

Well the only other way I can think of to describe that whole situation is "so Justice likes to watch?" and that's not much better!

Isabela will talk about it too.  She asks if Hawke doesn't want Justice to "smite" her with his "spear of righteousness."  Isabela is full of win.  Win, and VD.

Deztyn wrote...
Alain didn't 'report such things.'

Alain told Hawke.

Hawke does nothing.

There is not one scene that shows Elthina is aware of such abuses, and as the other poster said that they were done "all with the Grand Cleric's knowledge."

Hell, I can't recall a scene that shows Meredith is aware of the abusers. Meredith, who actually is the direct supervisor of the templars.

I should know better than to try and reason with you, but...  First of all, you're flat out claiming that Alain didn't report it while chatising someone for assuming something they couldn't know.  By the same token, you can't know that Alain didn't report it.  Or that no one else reported the multiple sexual predators we hear of.  Then you say we didn't directly witness a scene where Meredith is made aware of it?  You may recall we didn't even see Meredith for the first time until 5 minutes before Act III.  Then we talk to her what, twice?

[Deztyn]

Lithuasil wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

Which means Hawke is the most evil character in the entire game - Hawke "does nothing" with a lot of information he's given.

Funny how quick we are to hold NPCs up to some moral logic - but Hawke escapes it.

You assume she does, without any grounds to base that assumption on.

Pot. Meet kettle.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Medhia Nox wrote...

Which means Hawke is the most evil character in the entire game - Hawke "does nothing" with a lot of information he's given.

Funny how quick we are to hold NPCs up to some moral logic - but Hawke escapes it.

He may not be "evil", but I certainly consider him incompetent.

[Medhia Nox]

I assume (s)he does "what"?

(("You" is Hawke))

You know Anders is a freedom fighter from the get go - the bombing of the Chantry is on Hawke's hands (good for those who agree with terrorism).

You stop looking for the Kirkwall killer - AND clever gamers figured out "O" was Orsino when they found the letter after killing the Kirkwall Killer (always forget his name).

You kill Templars in the Chantry to get some maps into the Deep Roads.

You let that crazy Qunari hating priestess just walk away - to cause a Qunari rage-fest three years later.

You let Isabella run out of the warehouse when "I" knew well enough she was going to flee.

====

Hawke is lazy self-serving scum. All Hawkes - because that's the story Bioware told.

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 19 avril 2011 - 04:12 .

[Deztyn]

Rifneno wrote...

Camenae wrote...

Well the only other way I can think of to describe that whole situation is "so Justice likes to watch?" and that's not much better!

Isabela will talk about it too.  She asks if Hawke doesn't want Justice to "smite" her with his "spear of righteousness."  Isabela is full of win.  Win, and VD.

Deztyn wrote...
Alain didn't 'report such things.'

Alain told Hawke.

Hawke does nothing.

There is not one scene that shows Elthina is aware of such abuses, and as the other poster said that they were done "all with the Grand Cleric's knowledge."

Hell, I can't recall a scene that shows Meredith is aware of the abusers. Meredith, who actually is the direct supervisor of the templars.

I should know better than to try and reason with you, but...  First of all, you're flat out claiming that Alain didn't report it while chatising someone for assuming something they couldn't know.  By the same token, you can't know that Alain didn't report it.  Or that no one else reported the multiple sexual predators we hear of.  Then you say we didn't directly witness a scene where Meredith is made aware of it?  You may recall we didn't even see Meredith for the first time until 5 minutes before Act III.  Then we talk to her what, twice?

I'm a very reasonable person.

I'm objecting to someone saying "And after years of mages being abused, turned tranquil at the drop of a hat and brutalized, all with the Grand Cleric's knowledge, yet no one did anything," and another saying, "Alain isn't really the only one reporting such things, " claiming that Alain and others made some formal report.

Those are assumptions. We don't know who knows. That's my point.

[Rifneno]

Medhia Nox wrote...

You stop looking for the Kirkwall killer - AND clever gamers figured out "O" was Orsino when they found the letter after killing the Kirkwall Killer (always forget his name).

To be fair, this is only obvious to us because there's a very limited number of characters and it's typical RPG twists for it to be someone like the First Enchanter.  If this were real then it could've been anyone in one of the biggest cities in Thedas.

Who the bloody hell signs their name with just their first initial anyway?  He uses words like "colleague" and "fascinating" and then he's too lazy to write his name?  It's amazing he managed to make First Enchanter with a case of ADD that severe.

[Medhia Nox]

But now you're inferring that there's information outside of the game we aren't privy to. Remember - Hawke doesn't know any Circle mages - except Orsino. His first thought would likely fall to Orsino too. At least enough to question him about it.

I'm not saying Elthina, or the Viscount, or Meredith, or the Arishok is innocent. I think they're all really terrible leaders. I think that's the story Bioware was telling: "In Kirkwall, everyone sucks."

And I'm being serious - everyone in Kirkwall seems incompetent to me. With Hawke being at the top of that list.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Rifneno wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

You stop looking for the Kirkwall killer - AND clever gamers figured out "O" was Orsino when they found the letter after killing the Kirkwall Killer (always forget his name).

To be fair, this is only obvious to us because there's a very limited number of characters and it's typical RPG twists for it to be someone like the First Enchanter.  If this were real then it could've been anyone in one of the biggest cities in Thedas.

Who the bloody hell signs their name with just their first initial anyway?  He uses words like "colleague" and "fascinating" and then he's too lazy to write his name?  It's amazing he managed to make First Enchanter with a case of ADD that severe.

I find it much more fascinating that Hawke can't be even bothered to go check with the Circle or Templars, despite knowing full well that Quentin is connected with the former.

Rocks display more dedication than this.

[Camenae]

I thought it was because Quentin didn't want people to know he was in contact with Quentin. Plus DA seems to be very reluctant to give us people's full/real names anyway. Anders, Isabela...anyone who's not a noble?

[Camenae]

Errrr I meant Orsino didn't want people to know. The standard reply form doesn't work on the iDevices and I'm too lazy to turn on my computer so I did a new post instead of edit, sorry!

[Medhia Nox]

And why... WHY can you not just murder knife Anders skull when he says:

"So, can you help me sneak into the Chantry... cause I've got this bomb see...."

===

Honestly, I was hoping at the end I could make an all new hero - and show up at the end and finally vanquish the villain (Anders) and his lackies (Hawke and friends)

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 19 avril 2011 - 04:22 .

[Deztyn]

Medhia Nox wrote...

You know Anders is a freedom fighter from the get go - the bombing of the Chantry is on Hawke's hands (good for those who agree with terrorism).
 

Forget just being a freedom fighter, You know Anders is an abomination who can't control himself and is in his own words a force of vengeance without mercy, from your first real conversation.

And you choose to ignore it for years.