414 réponses à ce sujet

[KnightofPhoenix]

Medhia Nox wrote...
Honestly, I was hoping at the end I could make an all new hero - and show up at the end and finally vanquish the villain (Anders) and his lackies (Hawke and friends)

You know, that could have been the Arishok...

[Lithuasil]

Medhia Nox wrote...

I assume (s)he does "what"?

(("You" is Hawke))

No, "you" is "you", she is hawke. You assume she escapes the moral judgement. Hawke isn't the warden, she's a person not a plot device on legs. She can be selfish, or lazy, considering unlike the characters we discussed earlier, she has no obligation to interfere, other then morals. Elthina and Meredith on the other hand, were instated in their position, precisely to prevent what happened from happening. Calling them horrible at their jobs is a professional, not a moral judgement.

Oh and for the sake of argument, from the pov of my personal "canon" hawke.

Medhia Nox wrote...
You know Anders is a freedom fighter from the get go - the bombing of the Chantry is on Hawke's hands (good for those who agree with terrorism).

A loony, healing my refugee countrymen, fighting for *my* freedom, in the very same mage underground I'm active in. Bombing the chantry was poor strategy and therefore stupid, but she'd hardly be bothered by the terrible loss of life.

You stop looking for the Kirkwall killer - AND clever gamers figured out "O" was Orsino when they found the letter after killing the Kirkwall Killer (always forget his name).
The trail went cold several times - and Hawke has not met Orsino at that point, what metagamers figure out is entirely irrelevant.


You kill Templars in the Chantry to get some maps into the Deep Roads.

I'm an apostate, cornered by templars inside the chantry - what did you expect me to do, all morals aside? I agreed to walk into a church at night, things went wrong, and I decided I didn't like being made tranquil very much.


You let that crazy Qunari hating priestess just walk away - to cause a Qunari rage-fest three years later.
I let one of the few persons with the right Ideas about the qunari walk away - maybe if I had been able to side with them right there, the Qunari backstabbing could have been prevented.


You let Isabella run out of the warehouse when "I" knew well enough she was going to flee.
Which was unnecessary, since I had no whatsoever intention to return the book

[KnightofPhoenix]

Deztyn wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

You know Anders is a freedom fighter from the get go - the bombing of the Chantry is on Hawke's hands (good for those who agree with terrorism).
 

Forget just being a freedom fighter, You know Anders is an abomination who can't control himself and is in his own words a force of vengeance without mercy, from your first real conversation.

And you choose to ignore it for years.

Well to be fair, Shepard puts Legion, a geth, in the AI core chamber....*facepalm*.

But Hawke is something else. Yea idiocy is human, but too much idiocy and laziness, while human, also happens to be annoying.

[brightblueink]

I'm an Anders fan, and on my first playthrough he and my Hawke ran off together. If you were asking what I'd prefer, I'd want him to live and find some way to make up for his actions. I'm a big fan of second chances.

At the same time, if you're asking me what I think he *deserves*? Death. He blew up a place of worship, and we know the chantry takes in orphans, so not everyone in that building were guilty of anything. I don't think his death would really help anything, but I wouldn't say he deserves to live. He doesn't. He deserves to die.

I think being tranquil is worse than death, though, and I sort of doubt that he'll be able to defeat Vengeance in the end...I almost wonder if his death is the best thing for everyone involved, Anders included. I don't know. It's really hard to say.

[Medhia Nox]

@Lithuasil: So - they made Hawke for you. I'm glad.

They didn't make Hawke for me - I think Hawke is disgusting, incompetent filth deserving only of being defeated by someone more worthwhile.

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 19 avril 2011 - 04:27 .

[SteelerWayne]

Let me first applaud Deathstride for this poll as it is something I have been thinking about since playing the game.

I chose death. While I sympathize his plight and somewhat understand why he did it, it is still murder of an innocent plain and simple.

Also have to give props to Bioware for introducing us to this side of Anders, going from basically comic relief in Awakening to a darker rebel of conviction in DA2.

[Benchmark]

Camenae wrote...

I thought it was because Quentin didn't want people to know he was in contact with Quentin. Plus DA seems to be very reluctant to give us people's full/real names anyway. Anders, Isabela...anyone who's not a noble?

You know, I am pretty darn sure Quentin wasn't in contact with Quentin. He wasn't on a first name basis with lucidity. He had to call it Mr. Lucidity. (catch that reference)

[Camenae]

I know. I corrected myself in a post right after that one. I can't quote or edit while on my iPad.

[Persephone]

Camenae wrote...

I think the scene where Elthina knows of the abuses and ignores them is when you get the choice of giving her Ser Alrik's papers on the tranquil solution, and she just says ominously "I'm not going to ask you how you got this" and that's it. Basically an "o rly ya rly mmmk moving on" reaction.

Holy crap, I didn't even know you could do that!!! I love those details!

[PsychoBlonde]

Given the option, I would have had Anders stand trial and THEN be executed--but in a great deal of Thedas (including Kirkwall) the apparatus of justice is *broken*. Who could you take the man to in order to get a proper hearing? Aveline? She was caught up in that mess due to her association with Hawke. There was no trustworthy authority available to take charge of Anders, and by his own words he thought his actions were justified and he intended to keep on in the same vein.

Faced with a murderer who states that he intends to commit more crimes, and without any suitable means of confinement or legal execution, vigilante justice is about the best you can do. When it comes down to it, you've got to be prepared to shoot your own dog.

Would I leave Anders alive as a tranquil? No, because it would be cruel and I don't believe in "punishment". The purpose of the law is not to *punish* criminals but to do the best job possible at making the victims whole (when that can be done) and preventing further crimes from individuals who have demonstrated that they are unwilling or unable to control themselves. If a man has become a rabid beast beyond all shadow of a doubt, you don't lobotomize him and turn him into a slave. That's monstrous (and never mind that this is a risky procedure anyway.) You *eliminate* him as quickly and humanely as possible.

[Lithuasil]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Lithuasil: So - they made Hawke for you. I'm glad.

They didn't make Hawke for me - I think Hawke is disgusting, incompetent filth deserving only of being defeated by someone more worthwhile.

Any of these situations can be resolved in a different manner, and the game caters to that. However the game made Hawke a person, not an all powerful plot device to reform the word and defeat the ancient evil in the name of justice (pun intended). What gets to a lot of people, is that you can't play hawke as such a faceless hero - you can only play her as a person trying to be a hero, and inevitably failing. What makes people rage, is that in DA2, they put the story over accommodating to remote player wish fulfillment.

[Sabariel]

Persephone wrote...

Camenae wrote...

I think the scene where Elthina knows of the abuses and ignores them is when you get the choice of giving her Ser Alrik's papers on the tranquil solution, and she just says ominously "I'm not going to ask you how you got this" and that's it. Basically an "o rly ya rly mmmk moving on" reaction.

Holy crap, I didn't even know you could do that!!! I love those details!

You can show the papers to Cullen as well.

[DeathStride]

SteelerWayne wrote...

Let me first applaud Deathstride for this poll as it is something I have been thinking about since playing the game.

Thanks! I had seen multiple topics that discussed issue around the subject but never really directly addressed it, in the topic at least. Quite frankly, I'm surprised people have so much to say about the issue, I thought most posters on here were tapped out in terms of arguing the pros/cons of the endgame outcome and Anders' actions- surprised, but pleasantly so.

I'm also surprised to see how many people think what Anders did was actually the right thing. I figured more people would make the distinction between compelling reasons and justified actions. A huge portion of people voting and posting in this thread seem to believe quite fervently that "the ends justify the means." I'm very very much opposed to that ideology and I figured the mainstream belief was that the ends don't justify the means.

[KnightofPhoenix]

PsychoBlonde wrote...
 If a man has become a rabid beast beyond all shadow of a doubt, you don't lobotomize him and turn him into a slave. That's monstrous (and never mind that this is a risky procedure anyway.) You *eliminate* him as quickly and humanely as possible.

The risk however is turning him into a martyr. A legend and symbol.

Whereas breaking a man forever usually weakens that effect, if not completely removes it. Indeed, a common strategy in the past to get rid of political opponents was to break them completely and throw them on the streets to live as beggars. No one saw those as martyrs or symbols, even if they were war heroes.

Harsh. He may or may not deserve it, I am not arrogant enough to think that I theoritically know who deserves what or how (nor am I interested in such quesitons), nor am I a punitive man by nature. But I do think it would be prudent to tranquilize him.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 19 avril 2011 - 04:46 .

[Lithuasil]

DeathStride wrote...
I figured more people would make the distinction between compelling reasons and justified actions. A huge portion of people voting and posting in this thread seem to believe quite fervently that "the ends justify the means." I'm very very much opposed to that ideology and I figured the mainstream belief was that the ends don't justify the means.[/color]

Actually, what he did was pretty stupid to achieve the ends he hopes to achieve. But it's not the kind of stupid you kill a friend for, when said friend is an asset in a fight, and you're about to fight for your (or your sisters) life. Slapping him, or even telling him to gtfo *after* I'm sure me and those close to me live to see another day, yes totally. But murdering him on the spot, when nothing I value was lost, hardly.

[Rifneno]

Camenae wrote...

I thought it was because Orsino didn't want people to know he was in contact with Quentin. Plus DA seems to be very reluctant to give us people's full/real names anyway. Anders, Isabela...anyone who's not a noble?

I thought that at first, but if that's the case why give a clue such as his initial?  Why not have it be anonymous?  Quentin clearly is going to know who the note is from anyway.  Or maybe a code name.  I recommend, "Count Chocula."

Deztyn wrote...

Forget just being a freedom fighter, You know Anders is an abomination who can't control himself and is in his own words a force of vengeance without mercy, from your first real conversation.

And you choose to ignore it for years.

Another "But thou must!" moment.  In almost every playthrough, I'd tell Merrill I want nothing to do with her right after she showed blood magic.  Blood magic isn't inherently evil, so I wouldn't take action against her just for that, but it's dubious enough that I wouldn't want any involvement with her whatsoever.  Sadly...  "But thou must!"

Sabariel wrote...

You can show the papers to Cullen as well.

Which gives you a scene that makes me wonder how people defend Cullen...

[Deztyn]

Lithuasil wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Lithuasil: So - they made Hawke for you. I'm glad.

They didn't make Hawke for me - I think Hawke is disgusting, incompetent filth deserving only of being defeated by someone more worthwhile.

Any of these situations can be resolved in a different manner, and the game caters to that.

Uh, no they can't and no it doesn't.

All those situations are rammed down the players throat and we're forced to choke them down whether we like it or not. That's not very good catering.

[Persephone]

Deztyn wrote...

Lithuasil wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Lithuasil: So - they made Hawke for you. I'm glad.

They didn't make Hawke for me - I think Hawke is disgusting, incompetent filth deserving only of being defeated by someone more worthwhile.

Any of these situations can be resolved in a different manner, and the game caters to that.

Uh, no they can't and no it doesn't.

All those situations are rammed down the players throat and we're forced to choke them down whether we like it or not. That's not very good catering.

Same can be said about any game. Several of my Wardens never wanted to become Wardens or treasure hunt for an urn etc. Still had to. Every time. And do NOT get me started on the DR.

[KnightofPhoenix]

The DR is not forced on anyone.

[Sabariel]

Rifneno wrote...

Sabariel wrote...

You can show the papers to Cullen as well.

Which gives you a scene that makes me wonder how people defend Cullen...

I've wondered that too (many times), but not just because of that little scene. Cullen is a little too fruit loops and bat-nuts for me... which is really saying something

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

The DR is not forced on anyone.

You sure about that? My Warden had a drink with Morrigan and woke up in an alley... with no pants!

Modifié par Sabariel, 19 avril 2011 - 05:00 .

[Lithuasil]

Deztyn wrote...

Lithuasil wrote...

Any of these situations can be resolved in a different manner, and the game caters to that.

Uh, no they can't and no it doesn't.

All those situations are rammed down the players throat and we're forced to choke them down whether we like it or not. That's not very good catering.

Wrong. The game allows you to make decisions, but it doesn't cater automatic success to each and every possible decision. You *can* decide to tell petrice she's going to pay - yet you have no proof other then your word, and killing them on the spot would get you the templars AND the guards attention. So you have to helplessly let her walk away. Like what would happen if this scenario would happen in the real world. In other words, here's an Rpg, that forces you to roleplay. Dear god, the bother. Pure heresy, I know.

[Deztyn]

Rifneno wrote...

Deztyn wrote...

Forget just being a freedom fighter, You know Anders is an abomination who can't control himself and is in his own words a force of vengeance without mercy, from your first real conversation.

And you choose to ignore it for years.

Another "But thou must!" moment.  In almost every playthrough, I'd tell Merrill I want nothing to do with her right after she showed blood magic.  Blood magic isn't inherently evil, so I wouldn't take action against her just for that, but it's dubious enough that I wouldn't want any involvement with her whatsoever.  Sadly...  "But thou must!"

It could be avoided so easily. Just... don't have Anders blurt out how dangerous he is. That's all! Just don't spout crazy talk the second we meet! How hard is that?

It's like:

Hawke: Hi!

Anders: I'm possessed by a force of vengeance. He knows no mercy. I'm incapable of controlling myself and I never know what I might do when I lose control.

Hawke: Great! Let's hang out! <3

[Sabariel]

Lithuasil wrote...

Deztyn wrote...

Lithuasil wrote...

Any of these situations can be resolved in a different manner, and the game caters to that.

Uh, no they can't and no it doesn't.

All those situations are rammed down the players throat and we're forced to choke them down whether we like it or not. That's not very good catering.

Wrong. The game allows you to make decisions, but it doesn't cater automatic success to each and every possible decision. You *can* decide to tell petrice she's going to pay - yet you have no proof other then your word, and killing them on the spot would get you the templars AND the guards attention. So you have to helplessly let her walk away. Like what would happen if this scenario would happen in the real world. In other words, here's an Rpg, that forces you to roleplay. Dear god, the bother. Pure heresy, I know.

Killing Petrice and Varnell in a hovel in Lowtown at night with no witnesses to be had would not bring the attention of anyone. Hence why Petrice's plot armor pisses me off at that particular point in time.

[Persephone]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

The DR is not forced on anyone.

Deep Roads. Not Dark Ritual.

[Persephone]

Deztyn wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

Deztyn wrote...

Forget just being a freedom fighter, You know Anders is an abomination who can't control himself and is in his own words a force of vengeance without mercy, from your first real conversation.

And you choose to ignore it for years.

Another "But thou must!" moment.  In almost every playthrough, I'd tell Merrill I want nothing to do with her right after she showed blood magic.  Blood magic isn't inherently evil, so I wouldn't take action against her just for that, but it's dubious enough that I wouldn't want any involvement with her whatsoever.  Sadly...  "But thou must!"

It could be avoided so easily. Just... don't have Anders blurt out how dangerous he is. That's all! Just don't spout crazy talk the second we meet! How hard is that?

It's like:

Hawke: Hi!

Anders: I'm possessed by a force of vengeance. He knows no mercy. I'm incapable of controlling myself and I never know what I might do when I lose control.

Hawke: Great! Let's hang out! <3

Same can be said about (Love him though) Thane.

*Kills guards, murders Nassana*

Shep: Hey. I wanna talk to ya.

Thane: *Shrugs* Sure. What about?

Shep: I just saw ya kill in cold blood but wanna join me on a really high risk operation? I love dangerous men with hot voices and sad eyes.

Thane: Ok