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[KnightofPhoenix]

Persephone wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

The DR is not forced on anyone.

Deep Roads. Not Dark Ritual.

Ah lol. I see.

Still, the Deep roads ended up offering a choice that is not small, and had direct implications in the game and in the long run.

[DeathStride]

Lithuasil wrote...

Actually, what he did was pretty stupid to achieve the ends he hopes to achieve. But it's not the kind of stupid you kill a friend for, when said friend is an asset in a fight, and you're about to fight for your (or your sisters) life. Slapping him, or even telling him to gtfo *after* I'm sure me and those close to me live to see another day, yes totally. But murdering him on the spot, when nothing I value was lost, hardly.

Oh I wasn't talking about the logical/objective reasoning behind keeping him etc, I wasn't even proposing that if he be killed/tranq'd that it be done on the spot. I was referring to the morality behind it, the injustice of it, one might say...
If you do decide to have him help you, you have to side with the mages- something that I do, but I'm just saying that it's not always feasible to keep him as a helper if you're on the other side of the fence.

Objectively, if he's willing to help, there is some cause for keeping him, but as previous posters have mentioned, he really isn't all there, or even mostly there, in the head by that point, too much of Vengeance is controlling him- bit of a russian roulette situation for any future high-stress encounters, the type that pretty much every encounter from then to the end of the game is.

He could help you, or he might just murder those mages that show up asking for Templar mercy for the same reason he murders(or almost murders, depending on playthrough) the mage girl earlier in the game. Conversely, he might murder all the Templars who side with you to help against Meredith just because they're Templars.... you never know.

Modifié par DeathStride, 19 avril 2011 - 05:13 .

[Sabariel]

Persephone wrote...

Deztyn wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

Deztyn wrote...

Forget just being a freedom fighter, You know Anders is an abomination who can't control himself and is in his own words a force of vengeance without mercy, from your first real conversation.

And you choose to ignore it for years.

Another "But thou must!" moment.  In almost every playthrough, I'd tell Merrill I want nothing to do with her right after she showed blood magic.  Blood magic isn't inherently evil, so I wouldn't take action against her just for that, but it's dubious enough that I wouldn't want any involvement with her whatsoever.  Sadly...  "But thou must!"

It could be avoided so easily. Just... don't have Anders blurt out how dangerous he is. That's all! Just don't spout crazy talk the second we meet! How hard is that?

It's like:

Hawke: Hi!

Anders: I'm possessed by a force of vengeance. He knows no mercy. I'm incapable of controlling myself and I never know what I might do when I lose control.

Hawke: Great! Let's hang out! <3

Same can be said about (Love him though) Thane.

*Kills guards, murders Nassana*

Shep: Hey. I wanna talk to ya.

Thane: *Shrugs* Sure. What about?

Shep: I just saw ya kill in cold blood but wanna join me on a really high risk operation? I love dangerous men with hot voices and sad eyes.

Thane: Ok

And Jack.

Jack: Hi! I'm totally crazy and I like killing people!

Shep: Cool. Wanna join my gang?

Jack: No.

Shep:

[Lithuasil]

Sabariel wrote...

Killing Petrice and Varnell in a hovel in Lowtown at night with no witnesses to be had would not bring the attention of anyone. Hence why Petrice's plot armor pisses me off at that particular point in time.

Hawke (the person, not the player) has no way of knowing how capable Varnell is in a fight, if there are other templars close by (happened once already with petrice after all) and if either of them told anybody, while Hawke was away. Nor do they have the guarantee that the fight will go unnoticed. Hawke has plenty of reason however, to avoid fighting templars. Attacking them, be it out of petty revenge, or to defend a race that has just tried to kill hawke without any provocation or reason, is nothing any sane person would do. Letting them walk away, is a more or less bitter pill to swallow, but it's not plot armor.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Persephone wrote...
Same can be said about (Love him though) Thane.

*Kills guards, murders Nassana*

Shep: Hey. I wanna talk to ya.

Thane: *Shrugs* Sure. What about?

Shep: I just saw ya kill in cold blood but wanna join me on a really high risk operation? I love dangerous men with hot voices and sad eyes.

Thane: Ok

Well it more like this

Shep: Hey, TIM advised me to recruit you because you're an exceptional fighter. It's a dangerous mission.

Thane: Well I am dying, and I wish to atone. What is it you want to do?

Shep: save humans from collectors

Thane: a worthy cause. Would help me atone. Very well.

Cool handshake with sun in the bg.

Makes more sense than befriending Anders, who outside of his deep road maps, has no use for Hawke (except being the only spirit healer).

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 19 avril 2011 - 05:13 .

[Persephone]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Persephone wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

The DR is not forced on anyone.

Deep Roads. Not Dark Ritual.

Ah lol. I see.

Still, the Deep roads ended up offering a choice that is not small, and had direct implications in the game and in the long run.

Didn't see much IN game, only in the Epilogue Sliders.

*Hurries away before KOP will eat her*

[Sabariel]

Lithuasil wrote...

Sabariel wrote...

Killing Petrice and Varnell in a hovel in Lowtown at night with no witnesses to be had would not bring the attention of anyone. Hence why Petrice's plot armor pisses me off at that particular point in time.

Hawke (the person, not the player) has no way of knowing how capable Varnell is in a fight, if there are other templars close by (happened once already with petrice after all) and if either of them told anybody, while Hawke was away. Nor do they have the guarantee that the fight will go unnoticed. Hawke has plenty of reason however, to avoid fighting templars. Attacking them, be it out of petty revenge, or to defend a race that has just tried to kill hawke without any provocation or reason, is nothing any sane person would do. Letting them walk away, is a more or less bitter pill to swallow, but it's not plot armor.

My Hawke had slaughtered plenty of enemies, and in greater numbers, by then. Varnell would be no threat. Petrice wouldn't have anymore templars with her because she wanted her little operation to be as hush-hush as possible. And, like in any crappy areas of cities, the sounds of fighting would be common. No one would care enough to take any real notice. The fight would be over quickly and I'm sure Varric would know the right people to do clean up. Problem solved.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Persephone wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Persephone wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

The DR is not forced on anyone.

Deep Roads. Not Dark Ritual.

Ah lol. I see.

Still, the Deep roads ended up offering a choice that is not small, and had direct implications in the game and in the long run.

Didn't see much IN game, only in the Epilogue Sliders.

*Hurries away before KOP will eat her*

I am sure you're tasty, but I just ate

Golems in the battle. May not be a huge consequence, but it is a consequence. With rping, it's a rather big one too. Golems are phenomenal war machines. 

[Persephone]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Persephone wrote...
Same can be said about (Love him though) Thane.

*Kills guards, murders Nassana*

Shep: Hey. I wanna talk to ya.

Thane: *Shrugs* Sure. What about?

Shep: I just saw ya kill in cold blood but wanna join me on a really high risk operation? I love dangerous men with hot voices and sad eyes.

Thane: Ok

Well it more like this

Shep: Hey, TIM advised me to recruit you because you're an exceptional fighter. It's a dangerous mission.

Thane: Well I am dying, and I wish to atone. What is it you want to do?

Shep: save humans from collectors

Thane: a worthy cause. Would help me atone. Very well.

Cool handshake with sun in the bg.

Makes more sense than befriending Anders, who outside of his deep road maps, has no use for Hawke (except being the only spirit healer).

Again, it can be seen in both ways.

[Lithuasil]

DeathStride wrote...
snip

How he be judged, after the events is a different matter all together (though I'd still keep him in hindsight). But there's no real reason to kill him on the spot, or even care - given the situation. Imho, the whole scene would be a lot better, if you'd pick your side by actively interfering with Anders arrest / execution, rather then picking your side, and then judging him after everyone went ahead.

[Lithuasil]

Sabariel wrote...
My Hawke had slaughtered plenty of enemies, and in greater numbers, by then. Varnell would be no threat. Petrice wouldn't have anymore templars with her because she wanted her little operation to be as hush-hush as possible. And, like in any crappy areas of cities, the sounds of fighting would be common. No one would care enough to take any real notice. The fight would be over quickly and I'm sure Varric would know the right people to do clean up. Problem solved.

Considering he's twice your level at that point...   

Seriously though - the enemy numbers are pure gameplay - in close quarters, any seasoned fighter poses a risk, no matter how good you are. And Hawke maybe didn't bring Varric, has no way of knowing petrice motives (given she's not exactly outspoken). 
And I'm not denying it *could* work. But it's still a massive risk, with NO potential gain for Hawke, so why would anyone do it?

[MikoDoll]

And the Gallows is a LOT larger than the Ferelden tower.

The Gallows were made by the Imperium to break the will of slaves. It was not actually designed for mages, so it wouldn't necessarily reflect how many of them exist in Kirkwall. I actually had to think awhile about this because Anders was one of my favorite characters in Awakening next to Ogrhen.

Ultimately, I'd chosen not to kill him.

I think it's ironic that followers of Andraste (that'd make up most almost everyone whose not Dalish or Qunari we've seen) would complain about Anders while worshipping a woman who'd resorted to violent protest (if not all out war) to gain freedom. It's really in the culture the Chantry to perpetuates to start with, violence when peaceful means cannot be found. They all abide by it, and the people that don't abide to this concept (like the Qunari) wouldn't have been anywhere near the Chantry.

From the perspectives they chose as followers of Andraste, I don't see how this would've been wrong in principle--even to those whom were hurt. We debate this because we aren't bound to the perspectives of the Chantry. However most of Kirkwall accepted the perspective of a woman who'd resorted to violent protest as a viable means of action. Her behavior also helped create this situation and therefore, I cannot separate what she did from the issue. Without Andraste and her teachings, there would be no Chantry to persecute the mages in her name. And without the legend of Andraste, the villainous portrayal of mages would probably not be as grave in many Thedan societies today. We say Anders was wrong because he could've killed innocents, but I'm sure Anders' perspective was that innocents were being harmed with their deaths an eventuality in his doing nothing. Casualties were inevitable. For him, how many mages would have to die, be made tranquil, and lose what few rights they had before they finally decided to just kill them all?

Templars are understood as having struck first. What few rights templars allowed mages, they were overstepping already. They were turning mages tranquil for example even though they were not supposed to do that after the Harrowing. They were killing and searching mages who they had no probable cause to search among other crimes. They had the arguement of "potential" crime on the basis of being a mage but that'd be as great as racial profiling for terrorism or drug possession. Again no probable cause was demonstrated by Meredith for individual cases. Peaceful solutions were not working by the time Anders had did what he did and he specifically tried to wait it out for one . There were enough human rights violations going on in the Chantry for most modern countries to wage war on the Chantry if they felt at all threatened.

Second, Anders destroyed the Chantry specifically. The Chantry was directly responsible for what was going on. It upheld the crimes done by the templars. While Meredith especially felt very compelled to punish mages, she did not exact justice on templars that overstepped their boundaries with a comparable degree of vigor. Not even to those she was aware were abusing their power. In fact almost none of the Chantry members rose to stop it. It's members pretty much condoned the abuses when they could've stopped it or were taking part in it themselves. I think it would've been naive to assume they didn't have any idea that mages had virtually no rights. To me the Chantry in particular were not completely "innocent" and even entire countries will bomb or wage war on groups that formally condone and aid radicals that allow for human rights violations. The Kirkwall Chantry was at the backbone of Templar crime and was taking no measures to stop it. Meredith could've been stripped of her position years ago by the Grand Cleric, but was not. Anders did not aim his attack at actual civilians.


Another reason I supported Anders' attack on the Chantry was because without the Viscount they were already trying to weed their way into controlling Aveline's ranks which means they'd (if they got their way) have had more control over non mages as well eventually. Worst case scenario everyone except those in the Chantry would've had next to no rights. By the time I'd finished DA2, anyone in the Chantry who'd been supporting it felt, as though they were supporting religious radicals who aimed to extend their control over both mages and non mages (even if they hadn't known the second part). I saw destroying the main outpost to be a necessary to protect the majority of Kirkwall. Orisno was warning people of the radicalism of the Kirkwall Chantry and their attempts to use the Viscount's death to amass power. So for those who'd still been in there with the intention to condone or support their behavior.

Modifié par MikoDoll, 19 avril 2011 - 05:30 .

[DeathStride]

Lithuasil wrote...

How he be judged, after the events is a different matter all together (though I'd still keep him in hindsight). But there's no real reason to kill him on the spot, or even care - given the situation. Imho, the whole scene would be a lot better, if you'd pick your side by actively interfering with Anders arrest / execution, rather then picking your side, and then judging him after everyone went ahead.

That was one of the big WTF moments for me where my dear friend Game Immersion got a swift kick to the loins and was left gasping for breath on the ground, trying his best not to pass out.

Meredith, the fanatic zealot Knight Commander of Kirkwall, who invokes the Right of Annulment on all mages in Kirkwall, tells Hawke "meh, I'll let you deal with Anders, you know, the guy who just killed the Grand Cleric and loads of other innocents. Do with him as you will." This is the same woman that asserts her right to kill your own sister in cold blood a little while later.

It took Game Immersion a while to get back on his feet after that, although he got straight-up KO'd when Orsino went Harvester on the very people protecting him. GI didn't really come conscious after that, although he did take some more kicks while down when Meredith went Super Saiyan on Hawke's ass, flying and what-not.

Modifié par DeathStride, 19 avril 2011 - 05:26 .

[Deztyn]

Sabariel wrote...

Persephone wrote...

Deztyn wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

Deztyn wrote...

Forget just being a freedom fighter, You know Anders is an abomination who can't control himself and is in his own words a force of vengeance without mercy, from your first real conversation.

And you choose to ignore it for years.

Another "But thou must!" moment.  In almost every playthrough, I'd tell Merrill I want nothing to do with her right after she showed blood magic.  Blood magic isn't inherently evil, so I wouldn't take action against her just for that, but it's dubious enough that I wouldn't want any involvement with her whatsoever.  Sadly...  "But thou must!"

It could be avoided so easily. Just... don't have Anders blurt out how dangerous he is. That's all! Just don't spout crazy talk the second we meet! How hard is that?

It's like:

Hawke: Hi!

Anders: I'm possessed by a force of vengeance. He knows no mercy. I'm incapable of controlling myself and I never know what I might do when I lose control.

Hawke: Great! Let's hang out! <3

Same can be said about (Love him though) Thane.

*Kills guards, murders Nassana*

Shep: Hey. I wanna talk to ya.

Thane: *Shrugs* Sure. What about?

Shep: I just saw ya kill in cold blood but wanna join me on a really high risk operation? I love dangerous men with hot voices and sad eyes.

Thane: Ok

And Jack.

Jack: Hi! I'm totally crazy and I like killing people!

Shep: Cool. Wanna join my gang?

Jack: No.

Shep:

Eh. We know going in that we're tracking down an assassin to recruit him for our mission. He's also optional. Jack was intended to be optional originally, but really doesn't work because she ended up being a forced recruitment.

Still Mass Effect and Origins both gave you good RP reasons to take on a bunch of people you'd want no part of otherwise. When the world, or universe is about to go to hell you take whatever help you can get.

There's no compelling reason to ignore Anders crazy, much less to become his new BFF.

[Sabariel]

Lithuasil wrote...

Sabariel wrote...
My Hawke had slaughtered plenty of enemies, and in greater numbers, by then. Varnell would be no threat. Petrice wouldn't have anymore templars with her because she wanted her little operation to be as hush-hush as possible. And, like in any crappy areas of cities, the sounds of fighting would be common. No one would care enough to take any real notice. The fight would be over quickly and I'm sure Varric would know the right people to do clean up. Problem solved.

Considering he's twice your level at that point...   

Seriously though - the enemy numbers are pure gameplay - in close quarters, any seasoned fighter poses a risk, no matter how good you are. And Hawke maybe didn't bring Varric, has no way of knowing petrice motives (given she's not exactly outspoken). 
And I'm not denying it *could* work. But it's still a massive risk, with NO potential gain for Hawke, so why would anyone do it?

I beat Xebenkeck with a much bigger level difference than that so I can't see Varnell being a threat, even if his fight comes before Xebenkeck. If Hawke doesn't bring Varric then send someone to get him. He's nearby at the Hanged Man. No one is going to bust in while you wait.

[Sabariel]

Deztyn wrote...

Sabariel wrote...

And Jack.

Jack: Hi! I'm totally crazy and I like killing people!

Shep: Cool. Wanna join my gang?

Jack: No.

Shep:

Eh. We know going in that we're tracking down an assassin to recruit him for our mission. He's also optional. Jack was intended to be optional originally, but really doesn't work because she ended up being a forced recruitment.

Still Mass Effect and Origins both gave you good RP reasons to take on a bunch of people you'd want no part of otherwise. When the world, or universe is about to go to hell you take whatever help you can get.

There's no compelling reason to ignore Anders crazy, much less to become his new BFF.

Because you think it's not Anders' crazy, but Justice's crazy?

Or maybe because you like Anders' toenail painting prowess

Modifié par Sabariel, 19 avril 2011 - 05:30 .

[Lithuasil]

DeathStride wrote...
That was one of the big WTF moments for me where my dear friend Game Immersion got a swift kick to the loins and was left gasping for breath on the ground, trying his best not to pass out.

Meredith, the fanatic zealot Knight Commander of Kirkwall, who invokes the Right of Annulment on all mages in Kirkwall, tells Hawke "meh, I'll let you deal with Anders, you know, the guy who just killed the Grand Cleric and loads of other innocents. Do with him as you will." This is the same woman that asserts her right to kill your own sister in cold blood a little while later.

It took Game Immersion a while to get back on his feet after that, although he got straight-up KO'd when Orsino went Harvester on the very people protecting him. GI didn't really come conscious after that, although he did take some more kicks while down when Meredith went Super Saiyan on Hawke's ass, flying and what-not.

True, that was kinda hard to handwave, but then, if she went and sacked him, and your reaction to that decided your side in the final fight, this place would be overflowing with people complaining the dialogue wheel, and having decisions rammed down their throats.   

But the whole last act is one big "we have the story, but EA wanted the game out. It all makes sense in the story, just not in gameplay. (And hey, I reject your canon and substitute my own - yay fanfiction  )

[DeathStride]

Lithuasil wrote...

True, that was kinda hard to handwave, but then, if she went and sacked him, and your reaction to that decided your side in the final fight, this place would be overflowing with people complaining the dialogue wheel, and having decisions rammed down their throats.  

Don't get me wrong, I see the reasoning behind them leaving the choice to the player, I just feel that somehow, somewhere, BW might have mixed up the times when to give the player agency and when to make story-telling believable by not making it a fill-in-the-blank.

One possible way to do the Anders fate situation would be to simply have you choose sides first, but only allow the "save Anders" option if you side with the mages- basically do a real quick fight-encounter with Meredith and a few Templars where you managed to save a wounded Anders(who can still continue in your party gameplay-wise) and both sides retreat to regroup and fight all-out as they do later.

I figure, logically, if you're for killing all mages, aka siding with the Templars at endgame, then it makes about zero sense to give you the option to save Anders. And anybody who complains about that would quite obviously be a few nuts short of a fruitcake.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Sabariel wrote...
Or maybe because you like Anders' toenail painting prowess

How would you even know? You didn't try it and would have to trust him in the first place to let him try.

[Persephone]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Sabariel wrote...
Or maybe because you like Anders' toenail painting prowess

How would you even know? You didn't try it and would have to trust him in the first place to let him try.

Same reason I recruit Zev every time, really. And that dude just tried to effin' kill me!

[Sabariel]

DeathStride wrote...

Lithuasil wrote...

True, that was kinda hard to handwave, but then, if she went and sacked him, and your reaction to that decided your side in the final fight, this place would be overflowing with people complaining the dialogue wheel, and having decisions rammed down their throats.  

Don't get me wrong, I see the reasoning behind them leaving the choice to the player, I just feel that somehow, somewhere, BW might have mixed up the times when to give the player agency and when to make story-telling believable by not making it a fill-in-the-blank.

One possible way to do the Anders fate situation would be to simply have you choose sides first, but only allow the "save Anders" option if you side with the mages- basically do a real quick fight-encounter with Meredith and a few Templars where you managed to save a wounded Anders(who can still continue in your party gameplay-wise) and both sides retreat to regroup and fight all-out as they do later.

I figure, logically, if you're for killing all mages, aka siding with the Templars at endgame, then it makes about zero sense to give you the option to save Anders. And anybody who complains about that would quite obviously be a few nuts short of a fruitcake.

Maybe they want to keep Anders alive so they can... ask things of him

[KnightofPhoenix]

Persephone wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Sabariel wrote...
Or maybe because you like Anders' toenail painting prowess

How would you even know? You didn't try it and would have to trust him in the first place to let him try.

Same reason I recruit Zev every time, really. And that dude just tried to effin' kill me!

Zevran is immediately useful. He knows Crow tactics. And if you don't want him, you can kill him.

We do not have the choice iwth Anders nor a clear indication as to why he is useful. We only need his map.

[Sabariel]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Sabariel wrote...
Or maybe because you like Anders' toenail painting prowess

How would you even know? You didn't try it and would have to trust him in the first place to let him try.

He trusted me with his darkest secret so I trusted him with my bottle of Pink Blush nailpolish. My toenails look fabulous

[DeathStride]

Sabariel wrote...
Maybe they want to keep Anders alive so they can... ask things of him

Actually, that's a good point(not torture/rape, just making Tranquil), might as well give the option to Templars too...

sided with Temp's:
-let Meredith kill Anders
-intervene to let him live but as a Tranquil (drawing Meredith's ire, and providing more fuel for her to turn against you at endgame, as she inevitably does already)

sided with Mages:
-let Anders live (free/exiled/etc)
-Tranq him
-let Meredith kill him

basically, only the live free option would be not provided to Templars in that case.

Modifié par DeathStride, 19 avril 2011 - 05:50 .

[Deztyn]

Sabariel wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Sabariel wrote...
Or maybe because you like Anders' toenail painting prowess

How would you even know? You didn't try it and would have to trust him in the first place to let him try.

He trusted me with his darkest secret so I trusted him with my bottle of Pink Blush nailpolish. My toenails look fabulous

Pfft.

I reject his nailpolish.