144 réponses à ce sujet

[Augustei]

What would be worse for a mage to be in your opinion? Which are treated worse? Being a Tranquil mage in the circle or being a Saarebas in the Qun? And why do you think whichever one you believe to be worse is treated worse?

[Augustei]

Me, I think the Saarebas are more mistreated. i mean, the Tranquil at least dont really know whats going on and can be well not happy... but dont really care about their situation unless they are made untranquil for a second.. But then they dont really know what they are getting themselves into until it is done and by then it is to late, they resent it and its apparently a horrible experience according to karl.

But ignorance is bliss as they say. I mean at least they aren't fully aware of whats going on and have their mouths sewn and have to wear chains and a face mask and be treated like animals... But still, Saarebas are prisoners whereas Tranquil are prisoners in their own minds.
Saarebas are at least respected greatly among those of the qun where tranquil just well.. are there.

now that I think more about it I have no idea who really has it worse

[morbusswg]

Saarebas accept their role in the Qun, because they were Qun children before they were Saarebas (unless I completely misunderstood Sten and the Arishok)... Tranquil are cut off from the fade, and have no emotion, so they don't care what they are... at least with the Saarebas, I would know I'm fulfilling my role in the Qun, as sucky a role as that might be for me personally (which they don't seem to hold personal satisfaction to any great degree over societal satisfaction).

[Torax]

But at the same time. Some mages actually ask to be Tranquil so they don't have to worry about things like Demons always trying to seek them out as a gateway to feel alive as it were. The demons are always after the mages. Hunting them within the fade. As you sleep they even call to you. This is a constant burden of mages that can't easily be portrayed to the player. Some mages want to be Tranquil so that they can still live but not have to deal with the burdens that a mage has to deal with just for living. Burdens that even the Circle doesn't push on them. It's a burden from the Demons who want what they can't have as it were.

[stobie]

I'd say Tranquil have it worse, but there's something about the sewn lips that I just can't look at. Tranquil have had their personhood removed, whereas Saarebas are acknowledged - both respected & condemned. All in all, however, I think I'd rather be someone's favorite dog.

[DaeJi]

While the Qun is a very effective control, a Saarebas can break from it. A Tranquil is always cut off from the Fade. While the Tranquil live better, the Saarebas can be the better fate if they can abandon the Qun (and not get killed).

[Girl on a Rock]

Being Tranquil, certainly. As the Arishok says, in the Qun, there is always a choice. The Saarebas we saw seemed wholly at peace with his role, however abused and oppressed it may have seemed that he was to anyone else, and though his existence would involve more suffering than that of a mage made Tranquil, he at least can still feel, still has a soul, still has the choice to endure.

[stobie]

I love the part where he says Hawke respects boundaries. *I* may shudder at the zipped lips, but it's his choice. The Qun is pretty compelling - I was sorry when the story moved away from the Qunari.

[Super_Fr33k]

It depends on the person, I'd say. Some, if not most, saarebas consider themselves to be adhering properly to the Qun, and do not resent their treatment. Tranquil are always, well, tranquil, and so there's not much point in worrying about them either, barring unusual Fade exposure.

If I had to choose though, I'd go with saarebas, as they can change their minds and begin to resent their role. They suppress emotions, but do still possess them.

Interesting thought occurred: What would the Qunari have done if the Templars made a saarebas Tranquil?

The saarebas' arvaraad most likely would have resisted violently, but assuming it was done, would the Arvaraad believe the saarebas needed re-education for a new role? Would he kill him for no longer possessing a role?

Either way, I think it'd be safe to say the Qunari would've responded violently against the Templars, as it is an assault against a Qunari, one which denies them their role.

[DaeJi]

Super_Fr33k wrote...
Either way, I think it'd be safe to say the Qunari would've responded violently against the Templars, as it is an assault against a Qunari, one which denies them their role.

Tranquility would be boon to the Qunari. In a society that stresses order and adhering to one's role, a lack of emotion would be ideal. I would be disappointed if in Dragon Age 3, assuming the mage rebellion is still a focus, the Templars didn't try to barter the secret of Tranquility to the Qunari for either assistance or technology.

[nightscrawl]

Super_Fr33k wrote...

It depends on the person, I'd say. Some, if not most, saarebas consider themselves to be adhering properly to the Qun, and do not resent their treatment. Tranquil are always, well, tranquil, and so there's not much point in worrying about them either, barring unusual Fade exposure.

If I had to choose though, I'd go with saarebas, as they can change their minds and begin to resent their role. They suppress emotions, but do still possess them.

Interesting thought occurred: What would the Qunari have done if the Templars made a saarebas Tranquil?

The saarebas' arvaraad most likely would have resisted violently, but assuming it was done, would the Arvaraad believe the saarebas needed re-education for a new role? Would he kill him for no longer possessing a role?

Either way, I think it'd be safe to say the Qunari would've responded violently against the Templars, as it is an assault against a Qunari, one which denies them their role.

I feel exactly the same way.

You do pose an interesting question RE saarebas being made tranquil though. Although perhaps even though a tranquil saarebas can no longer perform magic, the arvaraad wouldn't accept the "success" of the tranquil ritual since it was performed by bas templars. By that line of thinking, there would be no possibility of re-education since the danger of demons might always be lurking. I'm guessing the saarebas would have to be put down as no longer useful.

Modifié par nightscrawl, 18 avril 2011 - 08:02 .

[Super_Fr33k]

Qunari don't seem to have trouble being stoic, however, and, IIRC, their defeat when trying to conquer Thedas largely stemmed from mages compensating for superior Qunari technology. They need saarebas. The role of mage is dangerous, but needed.

My premise was that it was done without the arvaraad's permission -- I think, whether he liked the idea or not, that'd cause a throwdown.

[nightscrawl]

Gah double post, sorry.

Modifié par nightscrawl, 18 avril 2011 - 08:02 .

[morbusswg]

But the Qunari are raised within the Qun. And being Saarebas is still contributing to the Qun. If you remember Sten talking about children in DA:O, he makes it clear that parents don't raise the children, someone else does. This person (sorry I forget the name) educates and (brainwashes?) the children into their role of the Qun. I'm not sure how a Saarebas would decide to act out against their Avaarad. Think about children who are born and raised in a cult. Very few ever leave, or question their role. It takes an outside influence to do that to them, and I don't see a whole lot of outsiders getting close enough to a Saarebas to influence them to rebel. Therefore, i would think, being a Saarebas would be more self-satisfying than being a tranquil, therefore preferential.

Now, take a child born and raised (at least for a few years or more) with their parents and siblings, then torn away from them and sent to the Circle. Completely different set of circumstances. Their propensity to leave the Circle, by any means necessary, would be exponentially greater than the Saarebas'. Therefore, opening them up to the influence of demons to "help" them escape.

That's just my take on it anyway

P.S. I put this up for clarification

Modifié par morbusswg, 18 avril 2011 - 08:05 .

[Dave of Canada]

Saarebas, [Hawke] Tranquil seem content with their lot.[/Hawke] Saarebas too, though atleast Tranquil can do other stuff.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 18 avril 2011 - 08:36 .

[sonoko]

Saarebas have it better in my opinion. They are at least fully alive and even respected while Tranquils are just some subspecies of zombies.

Modifié par sonoko, 18 avril 2011 - 08:46 .

[Dave of Canada]

sonoko wrote...

Saarebas have it better in my opinion. They are at least alive and even respected while Tranquils are just some subspecies of zombies.

Zombies are awesome.

[Wulfram]

Tranquil, because it's effectively the same as being dead.

[Torax]

It's easy to think that they are just zombies but that is only if they were made tranquil against their will. Some would wish to be Tranquil to not be preyed upon by Demons. Why is this something so easily discarded by all who think being Tranquil is wrong? To a point the Qunari are all about giving people Certainty. The Tranquil are very certain and basically are not governed by emotions or to a point trapped by them as some would feel. The game cannot properly portray to the player the constant dangers the mage is pressed upon by the spirits wanting to break free of the fade.

The Desire demons seek out the wants and desires of mortals cause it makes them feel as the humans do. This is a constant pressure and stress upon all mages. The Qunari are watched and tortured to a point so that it keeps them focused enough to hopefully keep the Demons at bay. This is not the case for the Circle. Tranquility was offered as a mercy so that mages who didn't want to be thrown to the wolves for the Harrowing could still live without fear of demons. Yes some other mages would be made Tranquil instead of risking an already weak willed mage to go face to face with a demon. It's easy to say that they are zombies and or that it's worse than death. Death means no more living. Nothing but blackness unless you maybe believe in some afterlife. But it means breathing no more. Some mages just want to breath without fear of demons. Once you ever truly experience that kind of pressure and fears for being alive? Then judge those that ask to be made Tranquil as harshly as you think the act is. Some mages would consider being Tranquil a blessing. Just because Jowan and Anders don't like the idea of being Tranquil doesn't mean they are right and all the mages who asked for such a thing are wrong...

Modifié par Torax, 18 avril 2011 - 08:57 .

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I'd say being Tranquil is probably worse. Although maybe not for someone who wanted to be one and volunteered for the Rite of Tranquility. Still Saarebas might be bound and abused but they still are the whole of themselves.

[Torax]

Also keep in mind that judgement of what Tranquils are is partially bias if you go by the little bit you deal with them in DA2. You can think of them as slaves but I don't think it is to such a degree. Much like the Qunari the Tranquil do like order and structure. So they tend to follow the rules to the letter. But I doubt they are outright slaves who do every last thing they are told. If this was the case they wouldn't be offered to leave and live with their families after being Tranquil. They have free will and wants of their own. They just are not as locked by emotions as a normal mage would be. I won't take the words of liar mages who were basically monsters in the end compared to someone like Owain who seemed perfectly fine with his decision to be made Tranquil.

[Dave of Canada]

Forced since birth to be shackled and serve your master, abused and tortured
or
Have free will and thoughts, be able to leave and start a business / get a job / get married (though without love, that's kind of hard) and live a normal life without emotions.

I'd pick the second one.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 18 avril 2011 - 09:05 .

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I was a little baffled by the tranquil in DA 2. Everyone, including the templars who enact the rite seem to think of them as mindlessly compliant, even though they didn't seem to that way before. So I'm not sure if they are supposed to be or not. It would make a difference in my opnion to the question of which was worse. Seeing Ser Alrik's speech was especially strange when he said that making the escapee mage tranquil would make her do anything he said. Why would she? If she just follows the rules than he himself was breaking them by doing that to her.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 18 avril 2011 - 09:13 .

[Torax]

the most important part that people forget is Tranquil are allowed to leave the Circle. Normal Mages are not allowed to leave after. So it's not truly as evil as that. Also keep in mind that Kirkwall is like the worst example to ever base an opinion on Templars or Mages or anything in regards to them. Using the worst place ever to decide how things should be run? Tranquil against one's will is one thing. But don't rule out why it was made in the first place without recognizing the threats they face and the side benefits like returning to family if they still love you.

[Foolsfolly]

Saarebas, of course.

Tranquil don't have any emotion and don't care about their lot in life. Saarebas might be devoted to the Qun but you can't tell me they're emotionally dead.